IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 29th October 2022, 09:33 AM   #121
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Back in the waning days of the Bush Administration, demonstrators protesting the war in Iraq used to be a constant presence outside the Pelosi home. Pelosi didn't seem to feel threatened by them though, just annoyed. A feeling she communicated very clearly. It was only fifteen years ago, but it was a different America.
....

More evidence of the right-wing demonization of Pelosi. Hardly like the ordinary threats against other politicians.
Quote:
In 2010, Republicans launched a “Fire Pelosi” project — complete with a bus tour, a #FIREPELOSI hashtag and images of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) engulfed in Hades-style flames — devoted to retaking the House and demoting Pelosi from her perch as speaker.

Eleven years later, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) joked that if he becomes the next leader of the House, “it will be hard not to hit” Pelosi with the speaker’s gavel.

And this year, Pelosi — who Republicans have long demonized as the face of progressive policies and who was a target of rioters during the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol — emerged as the top member of Congress maligned in political ads, with Republicans spending nearly $40 million on ads that mention Pelosi in the final stretch of the campaign, according to AdImpact, which tracks television and digital ad spending.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...licans-target/

Quote:
In 2018, she “starred” in one out of every five GOP-made ads. But over the last few years, punctuated by the Jan. 6 attack, the threats of actual violence appear to have escalated.

During the U.S. Capitol attack, insurrectionists ransacked Pelosi’s office, and many posted messages and videos on social media saying they were targeting her specifically. “We were looking for Nancy to shoot her in the frickin’ brain,” one woman who was sentenced to 60 days in prison earlier this year said in a self-recorded video during the attack. Others cried out “Oh Naaaaancy,” as shown in footage aired during former President Donald Trump’s second impeachment trial, and demanded Capitol Police present her to the mob.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...t-17542817.php
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 09:40 AM   #122
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 35,198
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Fox reveals that attacker is a nudist.
And therefore no true Scotsman!
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 10:49 AM   #123
Thermal
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 20,634
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Fox reveals that attacker is a nudist.
I suppose the assault could have been worse, then.

Last edited by Thermal; 29th October 2022 at 11:16 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:02 AM   #124
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,658
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
By that logic nobody should ever even lock their front door. After all, anybody could smash it down if they wanted to.
Rubbish! Out of all the people who might want to break into your home, the vast majority of them are wanting to do it quietly in order to steal things and escape, and they mostly hope you are not home. If you have a locks on your windows and doors, and breaking in looks difficult, they will simply move on to the next house. THAT is what home security is for!

However, if YOU are the target; if they are out to kill you, and are determined enough, that kind of security won't stop them. Do you really think that home security will stop an assassin?
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:23 AM   #125
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
By that logic nobody should ever even lock their front door. After all, anybody could smash it down if they wanted to.
You're going from one extreme to the other. By your logic, one shouldn't bother to wear a seat belt because a head on collision at 90 miles an hour would kill you anyway.

Most burglars enter through an unlocked door or open window. This guy wasn't a burglar: he was a mentally ill man spurred on by the Big Lie of Trump and QAnon morons who was intent on harming Nancy.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'm astonished at the objections here to common-sense measures. Does everybody live in "Mayberry RFD?" Pelosi was almost murdered by a lunatic with a hammer, not a KGB hit team. It wouldn't have taken much to stop him, or at least slow him down until the police could get there -- and the police really are "heavily armed guards prepared to shoot to kill."
I'm astonished at your overreaction and think Pelosi should have bars on her windows like a prison. I agree that an alarm system would be a logical thing to have if, in fact, they don't have one...which we don't know. But bars on their windows? What next? Junk yard dogs patrolling?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:26 AM   #126
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32,388
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I would have thought that swinging a hammer at a guy's head after being ordered to let go of it would be one of those few situations where he gets pumped full of bullets. (No telling where Mr. Pelosi was, if in the line of fire, though.)
If they were both black, they'd both be dead from gunshots.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:32 AM   #127
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 27,242
Perhaps the video was taken long after the fact, after the cops had left or finished? My Two-Minute-Mysteries vibe shows me that the broken glass is on the outside, making it appear that it was broken from the inside. (I can't see enough detail of the interior.) And it's the other door that's open. Curious. Again, it may have been done by the police but it's the kinds of things that elicit weird speculation.

I already submitted a crazy theory above and have seen people spouting similar things on Twitter. Sometimes I hate having such an imagination. I only said it because I thought it was the most ridiculous thing people could come up with.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:36 AM   #128
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Yes.


A bullet would have deterred him.


A great shot wouldn't have been necessary.
We know that DePape took the hammer away from Pelosi and then hit him with it which indicates DePape did not bring the hammer. If Pelosi had a gun, DePape could have taken it from him and used it against Pelosi. We have no idea what kind of experience, if any, Pelosi had using a firearm and he is 82 while DePape is 42. If a gun had been involved, we could well have a dead man instead of one who is expected to make a full recovery. Guns are not the answer any more than bars on our windows.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:38 AM   #129
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Fox News was quick to criticize Biden for not condemning other hammer attacks.

Which sounds like a joke but actually happened.
Fox is nothing more than a right-wing propaganda machine.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 11:45 AM   #130
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Need another example of the right wing going off the rails?

From: Business Insider
Fox News host Jesse Watters criticized the police response to the attack on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's husband, arguing that the attacker is being dealt with more harshly because of who the victim is...."A lot of people get hit with hammers. A lot of people get attacked. And a lot of times, they're out on bail the next day and it's a simple assault charge," Watters said.

Yup... in a country where police regularly shoot unarmed black people, we should consider their arrest of a (white) violent criminal attacking a senior citizen as "harsh".
Did they say exactly how is he being dealt with "more harshly"? Anyone breaking into an elderly person's home, regardless of who they are, and attacked them with a hammer causing injuries requiring surgery, would also be arrested, charged with attempted murder, assault w/ a deadly weapon, burglary & elder abuse. This is just typical crap from Fox designed to promote right-wing misinformation.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 01:02 PM   #131
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,789
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
By that logic nobody should ever even lock their front door. After all, anybody could smash it down if they wanted to.

I'm astonished at the objections here to common-sense measures. Does everybody live in "Mayberry RFD?" Pelosi was almost murdered by a lunatic with a hammer, not a KGB hit team. It wouldn't have taken much to stop him, or at least slow him down until the police could get there -- and the police really are "heavily armed guards prepared to shoot to kill."
No, that is your logic. And it is faulty.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 01:19 PM   #132
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 12,650
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Perhaps the video was taken long after the fact, after the cops had left or finished?...
What video are you referring to, I saw one from Sky News that showed the exterior door. They also reported the assailant, William DePape, brought the hammer with him, presumably to be used smashing his way into the house.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

The exterior video was taken in daylight, the attack took place at 2:30am local time. As a favorite co-worker of mine would say, "Do the math!"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pelosi home in San Francisco.jpg (84.4 KB, 14 views)
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 03:11 PM   #133
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We know that DePape took the hammer away from Pelosi and then hit him with it which indicates DePape did not bring the hammer. If Pelosi had a gun, DePape could have taken it from him and used it against Pelosi. We have no idea what kind of experience, if any, Pelosi had using a firearm and he is 82 while DePape is 42. If a gun had been involved, we could well have a dead man instead of one who is expected to make a full recovery.
.....
Are you now claiming that Pelosi provided the hammer? Where did that come from? Every report I've seen says that DePape entered the house by first smashing the windows with a hammer. There's no reason to imagine that he didn't control Pelosi by threatening him with the hammer. And what's most likely is that when the cops showed up, DePape tried to hit Pelosi and the two men struggled over it.

And the presumption is that anyone who keeps firearms knows how and when to use them. That might not always be true, but Pelosi could certainly have paid for the best training there is.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
....
Guns are not the answer any more than bars on our windows.
Great. In your opinion, what is the answer?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 03:20 PM   #134
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
.....
I'm astonished at your overreaction and think Pelosi should have bars on her windows like a prison. I agree that an alarm system would be a logical thing to have if, in fact, they don't have one...which we don't know. But bars on their windows? What next? Junk yard dogs patrolling?
Security bars can be decorative, even artistic.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/307652218306920313/

They can be designed to look like part of the window itself.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/704180091732584481/

They can even be installed inside so they are not visible from the street.

I've never thought of "bars" as a four-letter word. Where do you live that you've never seen bars on windows?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 03:26 PM   #135
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Rubbish! Out of all the people who might want to break into your home, the vast majority of them are wanting to do it quietly in order to steal things and escape, and they mostly hope you are not home. If you have a locks on your windows and doors, and breaking in looks difficult, they will simply move on to the next house. THAT is what home security is for!

However, if YOU are the target; if they are out to kill you, and are determined enough, that kind of security won't stop them. Do you really think that home security will stop an assassin?
And who's reaching for extremes here? The assailant was a lunatic with a hammer, not a KGB assassin. Ordinary home security measures -- including a functioning alarm system, the absence of which is breathtaking -- would have slowed him down enough for the police to arrive before Pelosi was hurt.

If I was a multi-millionaire, and my wife was one of the most powerful officials in the federal government and also one of the most reviled and controversial, I would pay for better security. I repeat, this is not a suburban tract house, and the Pelosis are not Jack and Jill Homeowner.

Last edited by Bob001; 29th October 2022 at 03:28 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 03:33 PM   #136
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We know that DePape took the hammer away from Pelosi and then hit him with it which indicates DePape did not bring the hammer. If Pelosi had a gun, DePape could have taken it from him and used it against Pelosi. We have no idea what kind of experience, if any, Pelosi had using a firearm and he is 82 while DePape is 42. If a gun had been involved, we could well have a dead man instead of one who is expected to make a full recovery. Guns are not the answer any more than bars on our windows.
Too late to edit my original post above, so I'll do it here. Newyorkguy's video was the first report Ive seen, after looking through many stories just before I made the above post, that it was Depape who brought the hammer and not one Pelosi may have picked up to defend himself. But my point still stands. There is no reason to believe that Pelosi could have shot DePape before the younger man was able to get it away from him and use it against him.

The Pelosis have several under age 18 grandchildren who visit their home which is a very good reason not to have a gun in the house.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2022, 09:28 PM   #137
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,658
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And who's reaching for extremes here? The assailant was a lunatic with a hammer, not a KGB assassin. Ordinary home security measures -- including a functioning alarm system, the absence of which is breathtaking -- would have slowed him down enough for the police to arrive before Pelosi was hurt.

If I was a multi-millionaire, and my wife was one of the most powerful officials in the federal government and also one of the most reviled and controversial, I would pay for better security. I repeat, this is not a suburban tract house, and the Pelosis are not Jack and Jill Homeowner.
My point still stands, regardless of your faulty logic.

The presence, or lack thereof, of a security system or door and window locks makes no actual difference. If someone is determined to break into your house to harm you, they will do so regardless - locks on the windows and doors, anti-shatter film, bullet-proof glass and/or an alarm system is not going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Nothing short of the presence of well-armed guards who are prepared to shoot an intruder will do that.

ETA: In this case, these doors - locked or not, bullet-proof glass or not, anti shatter film or not....



....will be no match for a few hefty blows with one of these...



I would simply smash the whole door out, and your locks will not be worth a light!
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

Last edited by smartcooky; 29th October 2022 at 09:37 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:02 AM   #138
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,189
Imagine how much Democrats would be over-reacting right now if Nancy had been assassinated.
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo.
Diablo: What's that supposed to mean?
Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:06 AM   #139
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Imagine how much Democrats would be over-reacting right now if Nancy had been assassinated.
I think the word you want is "dramatic".
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 04:05 AM   #140
arayder
Illuminator
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,192
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We know that DePape took the hammer away from Pelosi and then hit him with it which indicates DePape did not bring the hammer. If Pelosi had a gun, DePape could have taken it from him and used it against Pelosi. We have no idea what kind of experience, if any, Pelosi had using a firearm and he is 82 while DePape is 42. If a gun had been involved, we could well have a dead man instead of one who is expected to make a full recovery. Guns are not the answer any more than bars on our windows.
There are ways to safely store and quickly access handguns such that they are away from the kids but easy to get to when needed.

Pelosi would had to use the gun rather than let himself be disarmed, It probably wouldn't have been a difficult shot.

It would all come down to installing the gun safe, practicing using the set up and having a willingness to shot the intruder.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 04:39 AM   #141
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 19,022
Sounds a lot like victim blaming to me.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 04:47 AM   #142
Parsman
Muse
 
Parsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 861
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Perhaps the video was taken long after the fact, after the cops had left or finished? My Two-Minute-Mysteries vibe shows me that the broken glass is on the outside, making it appear that it was broken from the inside. (I can't see enough detail of the interior.) And it's the other door that's open. Curious. Again, it may have been done by the police but it's the kinds of things that elicit weird speculation.

I already submitted a crazy theory above and have seen people spouting similar things on Twitter. Sometimes I hate having such an imagination. I only said it because I thought it was the most ridiculous thing people could come up with.
No offence but, given the current mindset of 25-30% of Americans, don't you think it is better not to set out thought experiments that might give them ideas. You know you are spitballing, I know you are, but Magatards go "Hmm, they might have a point, you know." We shouldn't have to, but we do need to think about how things sound to the crazies out there.
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus

When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.
Parsman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 05:27 AM   #143
arayder
Illuminator
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,192
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Sounds a lot like victim blaming to me.
That's not my intent, GZ. I'm just saying guns can be safely (to the user) used in self defense. In this case one could have been the equalizer in a confrontation between a 42 year old and an 82 year old.

Last edited by arayder; 30th October 2022 at 05:31 AM.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 05:53 AM   #144
Spektator
Watching . . . always watching.
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 2,102
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Perhaps the video was taken long after the fact, after the cops had left or finished? My Two-Minute-Mysteries vibe shows me that the broken glass is on the outside, making it appear that it was broken from the inside. (I can't see enough detail of the interior.)
Glass from a broken window typically lands mostly on the side that is struck. When my University door window was opened with a hammer, almost all the glass fell outside. The culprit was a student trying to steal a final exam. He wore a ski mask and slipped in late at night but an outside security camera caught him coming in and leaving the building....
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 06:47 AM   #145
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
New details here. The police dispatcher sounds like the real hero. She understood the nature of the emergency without Pelosi even actually talking to her.
Quote:
The 82-year-old husband of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi appears to have secretly dialed 911 and left the phone line open after a man busted into the couple’s Pacific Heights home looking for his wife, reportedly asking, “Where is Nancy?”

What Paul Pelosi said enabled the dispatcher, at 2:32 a.m. Friday, to elevate the call to an emergency, according to police officials and police audio dispatches.

Two minutes later, Officers Kolby Wilmes and Kyle Cagney arrived at the front door, officials said. They tackled the intruder, identified as 42-year-old East Bay resident David DePape, moments after he allegedly struck Paul Pelosi with a hammer, leaving him in need of surgery to repair a fractured skull and injuries to his right arm and hands.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...t-17543724.php

Last edited by Bob001; 30th October 2022 at 07:30 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 07:01 AM   #146
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 27,242
Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
No offence but, given the current mindset of 25-30% of Americans, don't you think it is better not to set out thought experiments that might give them ideas. You know you are spitballing, I know you are, but Magatards go "Hmm, they might have a point, you know." We shouldn't have to, but we do need to think about how things sound to the crazies out there.
It's not something I would have put anywhere but here (like Twitter), but yes, I see your point.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
New detais here. The police dispatcher sounds like the real hero. She understood the nature of the emergency without Pelosi even actually talking to her.
I'm surprised they haven't released the 911 call audio yet. They do it with every other tragedy.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

Last edited by alfaniner; 30th October 2022 at 07:02 AM.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 07:17 AM   #147
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My point still stands, regardless of your faulty logic.

The presence, or lack thereof, of a security system or door and window locks makes no actual difference. If someone is determined to break into your house to harm you, they will do so regardless - locks on the windows and doors, anti-shatter film, bullet-proof glass and/or an alarm system is not going to make the slightest bit of difference.
....
You seem to be of the opinion that no reasonable precautions could have prevented Pelosi's near-murder. I just don't understand such helpless fatalism, and the facts are on my side.

From the above report, police were at Pelosi's door two minutes after he made the 911 call. Slowing the guy's entrance by two minutes would have been enough to change the outcome. A functional alarm system would have dialed 911 automatically when the first window was smashed, and it would have alerted Pelosi to wake up, lock his bedroom door, arm himself with whatever he chose and call 911 again. Ordinary window film -- routinely used by Florida homeowners to reduce hurricane damage -- would have slowed DePape's access, and the loud alarm might have been enough to scare him away. Bright motion-sensing lights switching on might even have discouraged him as soon as he entered the yard.

Once again, the attacker was a crazy guy with a hardware store hammer, not a KGB hit team with breaching tools and silenced MP5s. He could have been stopped pretty easily. And Pelosi wouldn't be trying to recover from a fractured skull.

The House recently decided to spend $10,000 per member to upgrade security at their homes. I'm pretty sure it went to installing alarms and hardening the perimeter. The experts must think it's a worthwhile investment.
https://www.axios.com/2022/07/27/hou...anced-security

Last edited by Bob001; 30th October 2022 at 07:53 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 07:18 AM   #148
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,001
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
It's not something I would have put anywhere but here (like Twitter), but yes, I see your point.

I'm surprised they haven't released the 911 call audio yet. They do it with every other tragedy.
Usually later in the process. Right now they probably haven't even decided on all the final charges.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 07:19 AM   #149
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,283
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Sounds a lot like victim blaming to me.
It is.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 10:04 AM   #150
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 12,650
It seems to me there's two ways of looking at the security issue. Public officials are the ones serving in a public role. As the San Francisco police chief said during his press conference, the families of the officials -- like the family of the San Francisco police chief -- are "not part of the deal." They have a right to go on living a normal life, or as near-normal as possible.

There was a time when officials said, no they had no home security. They didn't feel it was necessary. They weren't afraid of the public they served. As I previously posted, in the waning days of the War in Iraq anti-war protesters regularly arrived at Nancy Pelosi's San Francisco home. She didn't view them as a threat, but an annoyance. And occasionally she came out of her house to tell them that.

Here's a description of the scene from 2007, from an archived World Socialist Web Site news report
Quote:
“Look,” she said, “I had, for five months, people sitting outside my home, going into my garden in San Francisco, angering neighbors, hanging their clothes from trees, building all kinds of things—Buddhas? I don’t know what they were—couches, sofas, chairs, permanent living facilities on my front sidewalk.” Pelosi continued: “If they were poor and they were sleeping on my sidewalk, they would be arrested for loitering, but because they have ‘Impeach Bush’ across their chest, it’s the First Amendment.” WSWS link
So much has changed. Back then the protesters outside Pelosi's home were angry because they wanted George W. Bush to be impeached and Pelosi didn't agree. But they didn't believe in physical intimidation. Now people on the right clearly do believe in physical intimidation. Now we have a member of Congress saying Pelosi is "guilty of treason" for reasons they never clearly enunciate, and that Pelosi should be executed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg That was then this is now.jpg (68.8 KB, 9 views)
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 11:30 AM   #151
crescent
Philosopher
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,214
This seems likely to me, although I would love to be wrong about it.


Matthew Gertz
Quote:
1. By week’s end, a sizable percentage of the GOP base will believe an absurd conspiracy theory positing that Paul Pelosi was assaulted by his leftist gay lover.
Fifteen twitter posts follow laying it out, but it comes down to two details.

1: While hiding in the bathroom and on the phone with 911, Mr. Pelosi referred to the man as "friend". This may have been a de-escalatory tactic on Pelosi's part.

2: A number of right wing outlets reported that when police arrived the man was in his underwear. This is false. The outlets have since deleted or edited that out of their stories but have otherwise not issued retractions or corrections.

So we'll see. Good chance that by next weekend there will be a whole new CT about this.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:07 PM   #152
RolandRat
Graduate Poster
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 1,551
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Good chance that by next weekend there will be a whole new CT about this.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ROSTITUTE.html

"Elon Musk tweets Hillary Clinton to suggest Paul Pelosi's attacker was GAY PROSTITUTE speaker's husband met during drunken night out in San Francisco: Cops say attacker arrived with bag of zip ties. New Twitter CEO Elon Musk shared a link to a now-deleted article suggesting Paul Pelosi left a gay bar with David DePape early Friday morning. The article suggests Pelosi actually let DePape into his $6million home on Friday"

Even though the article asserts no evidence, the comments underneath. Oh my.

Last edited by RolandRat; 30th October 2022 at 12:08 PM.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:07 PM   #153
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 27,894
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
1: While hiding in the bathroom and on the phone with 911, Mr. Pelosi referred to the man as "friend". This may have been a de-escalatory tactic on Pelosi's part.
This is apparently not true either, according to the San Francisco Chronicle:

Quote:
Far-right commentators, and the article promoted by Musk, have seized on an audio recording of a San Francisco dispatcher relaying information about the intruder from Paul Pelosi, who called 911. The dispatcher said the caller “stated that he doesn’t know who the male is but he advised that his name is David and that he is a friend.”

The dispatcher was relaying that DePape — not Paul Pelosi — had “advised that his name is David and that he is a friend.”
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:26 PM   #154
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 12,650
From the Chronicle story:
Quote:
By 10:30 a.m. Sunday, the message and link had been retweeted more than 30,000 times and liked more than 110,000 times, before being deleted less than an hour later.
As I posted up-thread:
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
...Ever notice how often the wingers, even trump, wind up deleting -- self-censorship? -- their own Tweets. What should that tell them?
The Chronicle also reported:
Quote:
Last year, the Los Angeles Times reported that the Santa Monica Observer was “notorious for publishing false news,” and once claimed “that Hillary Clinton had died and that a body double had been sent to debate Donald Trump.”
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:27 PM   #155
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,658
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You seem to be of the opinion that no reasonable precautions could have prevented Pelosi's near-murder. I just don't understand such helpless fatalism
Nope.

I'm merely saying a determined intruder is almost impossible to stop with locks and alarms, and the only way to actually stop one is armed guards (or a literal bloody fortress).

At no point did I EVER say or imply not to take reasonable security precautions against a potential not-so determined intruder


Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
...the loud alarm might have been enough to scare him away. Bright motion-sensing lights switching on might even have discouraged him as soon as he entered the yard....
Thanks Bob, you just made my point!



Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
and the facts are on my side.
Nope, they aren't
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

Last edited by smartcooky; 30th October 2022 at 12:30 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:37 PM   #156
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
There are ways to safely store and quickly access handguns such that they are away from the kids but easy to get to when needed.

Pelosi would had to use the gun rather than let himself be disarmed, It probably wouldn't have been a difficult shot.

It would all come down to installing the gun safe, practicing using the set up and having a willingness to shot the intruder.
Yes, I've heard all this before. But it all boils down to "be afraid, be very afraid," which is what the GOP is built on. What first world country citizens in the world, other than the US, feel the need to arm themselves in public and in their homes besides the US? I refuse to live that way or promote it. As the saying goes, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."

"It probably wouldn't have been a difficult shot." You're making quite an assumption there since you have no idea how difficult it would have been or if Pelosi had any experience shooting a gun, etc.

All statistics show that having a gun in the house PERIOD puts the inhabitants at greater risk of being killed or injured by that gun than it ever being used in self-defense against an intruder.

This ******* love of guns in this country is sick and perverted.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Sounds a lot like victim blaming to me.
I agree.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:42 PM   #157
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
That's not my intent, GZ. I'm just saying guns can be safely (to the user) used in self defense. In this case one could have been the equalizer in a confrontation between a 42 year old and an 82 year old.
Uh huh. And a gun could have been the cause of one or both being dead instead of alive right now. I've mentioned it before but it bears repeating: if my grandmother had not had a damn gun in the house two people would have lived instead of dying that night. !
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:46 PM   #158
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,283
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is apparently not true either, according to the San Francisco Chronicle:
Yeah the Santa Monica Observer is basically if QAnon had a newspaper.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 12:53 PM   #159
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 27,839
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Yeah the Santa Monica Observer is basically if QAnon had a newspaper.
Then we should expect our resident hit and run extreme right-wing biased source provider to be quoting it any time now.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2022, 01:12 PM   #160
Thermal
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 20,634
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm merely saying a determined intruder is almost impossible to stop with locks and alarms, and the only way to actually stop one is armed guards (or a literal bloody fortress).

At no point did I EVER say or imply not to take reasonable security precautions against a potential not-so determined intruder
Truth. Locks keep out punks and drunks. Any healthy man or most teens can kick their way through even a deadbolted door, but you have to be driven.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:45 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.