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Old 29th October 2022, 04:30 AM   #1
arayder
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Eliminate hate and injustice?

What concrete steps can we, as individuals and as a society, take to drive hate and injustice from our communities and our nations?
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Old 29th October 2022, 06:16 AM   #2
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At this point we're staring the paradox of tolerance right in the face. What would help more than anything to dial back the hate and injustice are a few organized groups of heavily-armed drag queens protecting polling locations in deep red areas.
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Old 29th October 2022, 06:49 AM   #3
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a complete no-brainer that should have complete bipartisan support would be a massive expansion of the Judiciary to the point when Plea Bargains become the exception, not the standard procedure.
This would alleviate the fundamental injustice that is the difference between rich and poor people before the Law.
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:11 AM   #4
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It's my theory that happy people are less hateful, and that happiness requires basic needs to be met and a feeling of security that they will continue to be met in the future. Therefore the solution to hate and injustice is universal prosperity to at least a minimum comfort level.

Even if that didn't work in eliminating hate and injustice I think it's still a worthy goal in its own right.
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:32 AM   #5
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Might as well ask what concrete steps we can use to drive hate and injustice from this forum. Literally, since this forum is in fact a community, congruent with the question raised in the OP.

This community, full of hate, and also full of happy people. Happy by global standards, anyway. But clearly not happy enough. So how can we make the membership happier? Probably one concrete step to take there is to be less hateful all the time. Be less hateful, and the people around you will be happier. Being happier, they will be less hateful, and you'll be happier. The virtuous cycle spins merrily, and can be presented to the UN as Exhibit A in making the world a better place. You'll know you've arrived when Vladimir Putin gets with the program.
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:35 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's my theory that happy people are less hateful, and that happiness requires basic needs to be met and a feeling of security that they will continue to be met in the future. Therefore the solution to hate and injustice is universal prosperity to at least a minimum comfort level.
The flip side of that is the whole "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." idea. If that's true, universal prosperity would cause it's own collapse.
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
What concrete steps can we, as individuals and as a society, take to drive hate and injustice from our communities and our nations?
Deuteronomy chapter 20 offers several suggestions.
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:39 AM   #8
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:58 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's my theory that happy people are less hateful, and that happiness requires basic needs to be met and a feeling of security that they will continue to be met in the future. Therefore the solution to hate and injustice is universal prosperity to at least a minimum comfort level.

Even if that didn't work in eliminating hate and injustice I think it's still a worthy goal in its own right.
The highlighted piece is about people having hope.

Hope is a terrible thing to lose.
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Old 29th October 2022, 08:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The flip side of that is the whole "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." idea. If that's true, universal prosperity would cause it's own collapse.
What is the point of strength if not to use it to obtain happiness? Happiness is the goal. If we lived in a world where we didn't need to be strong because there was and would be no obstacles requiring strength to overcome then we'd have achieved the goal. Strength is a tool to achieve a goal, not a goal in itself.
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Old 29th October 2022, 08:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
a feeling of security that they will continue to be met in the future.
The problem, of course, is that when that feeling of security isn't met for any reason people become very susceptible to arguments that taking other peoples' will bring theirs back, while telling them that things will work out and it will get better isn't very reassuring even if that's almost always the case.
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Old 29th October 2022, 08:53 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What is the point of strength if not to use it to obtain happiness? Happiness is the goal. If we lived in a world where we didn't need to be strong because there was and would be no obstacles requiring strength to overcome then we'd have achieved the goal. Strength is a tool to achieve a goal, not a goal in itself.
Is happiness the goal? I think in these discussions happiness is often broken down into at least two types. You've got life satisfaction, and pleasure. When my son plays his x-box instead of studying, he is sacrificing the former for the latter. They are kind of pulling in different directions. I'd be on board with the first of those being the goal.

Beyond that though, the claim is that creating an environment where happiness is easy to obtain leads to people focusing on their own short term happiness and not doing the nasty, unpleasant, hard, short term pain for long term gain things that are needed to maintain that happy society. We become like the humans in Wall-E. It's not necessarily about strength being a goal in itself, but strength is necessary, and things that undermine strength have knock on effects that eventually undermine happiness.
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Old 29th October 2022, 10:11 AM   #13
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The pursuit of happiness, as Jefferson saw it, means you are free to live your life and participate in society as you choose. It means you are free to feel, strive and live in freedom.

It was/is not, in Jefferson's view, the right to eat Cheetos and and play computer games all day.

So. . .if we assure everyone the right to be thus happy are we working to eliminate hate and injustice?
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Old 29th October 2022, 10:15 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The pursuit of happiness, as Jefferson saw it, means you are free to live your life and participate in society as you choose. It means you are free to feel, strive and live in freedom.

It was/is not, in Jefferson's view, the right to eat Cheetos and and play computer games all day.

So. . .if we assure everyone the right to be thus happy are we working to eliminate hate and injustice?
Seems pretty hateful and unjust to deny someone the right to each Cheetos and play computer games if that's what he wants to do.
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Old 29th October 2022, 10:25 AM   #15
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Old 29th October 2022, 10:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems pretty hateful and unjust to deny someone the right to each Cheetos and play computer games if that's what he wants to do.
Yet another reason to pur a qualifier on Jefferson's greatness. First the owning and raping slaves thing, now this.
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Old 29th October 2022, 12:25 PM   #17
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Reaffirm the liberal democratic principles this country was founded on and do everything you can to preserve it, including the occasional takedown of extremists and disinformers to balance what we can tolerate to maintain the system.
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Old 29th October 2022, 12:44 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Reaffirm the liberal democratic principles this country was founded on and do everything you can to preserve it, including the occasional takedown of extremists and disinformers to balance what we can tolerate to maintain the system.
Labeling people and taking them down doesn't seem like concrete way to eliminate hate from society. Unless you mean that you'll just keep eliminating people you hate, until they're all gone and you have no one to hate anymore. Which, realistically, is how the most hateful and unjust regimes get established. Are you sure you understand the topic of the thread?
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Old 29th October 2022, 01:28 PM   #19
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Re:OP: ask Skynet.
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Old 29th October 2022, 01:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Re:OP: ask Skynet.
Better yet, ask Colossus (the Forbin Project). Risking your entire city if you expressed too much hate or injustice seems like it would do the trick. Is that what the OP has in mind? Mass destruction if people deviate from Correct Thought?
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Old 29th October 2022, 01:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The pursuit of happiness, as Jefferson saw it, means you are free to live your life and participate in society as you choose. It means you are free to feel, strive and live in freedom.

It was/is not, in Jefferson's view, the right to eat Cheetos and and play computer games all day.

So. . .if we assure everyone the right to be thus happy are we working to eliminate hate and injustice?
If you assure somebody of the right to something that cannot be reliably delivered, will it help us to deliver another thing that can not be delivered? I don't think so. What happens if you wave a magic wand and make everybody economically secure, and remove all societal constraints to the pursuit of happiness is that lots of people sit about watching porn, women behave hypergamously, men behave polyamorously etc. etc. and the sum of human happiness goes down.
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Old 29th October 2022, 01:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you assure somebody of the right to something that cannot be reliably delivered, will it help us to deliver another thing that can not be delivered? I don't think so. What happens if you wave a magic wand and make everybody economically secure, and remove all societal constraints to the pursuit of happiness is that lots of people sit about watching porn, women behave hypergamously, men behave polyamorously etc. etc. and the sum of human happiness goes down.
Exactly. Human society is "imperfect" because humans are "imperfect". If arayder is not prepared to confront and correct his own imperfections, he has no hope of correcting the imperfections of society.
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Old 29th October 2022, 01:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Exactly. Human society is "imperfect" because humans are "imperfect". If arayder is not prepared to confront and correct his own imperfections, he has no hope of correcting the imperfections of society.
As a person wiser than me once said.... "People are like pens. If they don't work, you shake 'em. If they still don't work, you chuck 'em away."
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Old 29th October 2022, 01:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The pursuit of happiness, as Jefferson saw it, means you are free to live your life and participate in society as you choose. It means you are free to feel, strive and live in freedom.

It was/is not, in Jefferson's view, the right to eat Cheetos and and play computer games all day.

So. . .if we assure everyone the right to be thus happy are we working to eliminate hate and injustice?
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you assure somebody of the right to something that cannot be reliably delivered, will it help us to deliver another thing that can not be delivered? I don't think so. What happens if you wave a magic wand and make everybody economically secure, and remove all societal constraints to the pursuit of happiness is that lots of people sit about watching porn, women behave hypergamously, men behave polyamorously etc. etc. and the sum of human happiness goes down.
It was written as the pursuit of happiness. I didn't phrase it so in my final sentence above. My bad.

But the idea would be that everyone has a chance to fulfill themselves, pursue their dream. ..whatever.

I don't think the "pursuit of happiness" was considered to be as hedonistic as you describe it. It has been described as the ability to fully participate in society.

Thus people have hope.
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Old 29th October 2022, 02:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
It was written as the pursuit of happiness. I didn't phrase it so in my final sentence above. My bad.

But the idea would be that everyone has a chance to fulfill themselves, pursue their dream. ..whatever.

I don't think the "pursuit of happiness" was considered to be as hedonistic as you describe it. It has been described as the ability to fully participate in society.

Thus people have hope.
I don't think it was intended as hedonistic. Intentions don't really matter to how things turn out. People, when given the opportunity, and left to themselves, tend to choose short term rewards over long term satisfaction unless conditioned to do otherwise. He was writing at a time when almost everybody was radically constrained by physical necessity in a way that almost nobody in the west is today.

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Old 29th October 2022, 02:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't think it was intended as hedonistic. Intentions don't really matter to how things turn out. People, when given the opportunity, and left to themselves, tend to choose short term rewards over long term satisfaction unless conditioned to do otherwise. He was writing at a time when almost everybody was radically constrained by physical necessity in a way that almost nobody in the west is today.
There's an argument to be made there, but you've been making a dog's breakfast of it so far.
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Old 29th October 2022, 02:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's an argument to be made there, but you've been making a dog's breakfast of it so far.
It's more of an assertion than an argument. It's hardly a novel point to make. It's pretty much the standard traditionalist critique of this stuff.
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Old 29th October 2022, 06:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
a complete no-brainer that should have complete bipartisan support would be a massive expansion of the Judiciary to the point when Plea Bargains become the exception, not the standard procedure.
This would alleviate the fundamental injustice that is the difference between rich and poor people before the Law.
Dude, deeply and violently agreed. A speedy trial is one of those rights we’re super supposed to have and yet the legal machinery is, frankly, ******. And the damaging repercussions are many, terrible and far-reaching.
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Old 29th October 2022, 06:55 PM   #29
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Take your pick:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Small_Talent_for_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:18 PM   #30
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Eliminate hate and injustice? Sure...when human nature goes through a massive evolution. All we can do is try and mitigate it; trying to eliminate it is a fool's errand.
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Old 30th October 2022, 02:10 AM   #31
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Who is going to collect and manage the garbage and clean and manage the sewers and build the infrastructure and raise the food and process it and distribute it and make it?

That alone makes justice impossible and happiness only available to a few.

Eliminate the need to eat and defecate and urinate and shelter and transport.... then maybe we can start.

However... look at people like Nancy Pelosi and Donald Trump... they have all the comforts and wherewithal to sit back and enjoy their old age and dote over their grandchildren... but what are they doing instead?? The latter wants to destroy this country... the former wants to start global wars.... why? Because they are humans... i.e. predatory chimpanzees with tools to be efficient predators and they want to be alpha chimps.
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Old 30th October 2022, 02:14 AM   #32
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Lower levels of hate and injustice seem to go hand in hand with lower levels of wealth and income inequality, though they can never get close to being eliminated.
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Old 30th October 2022, 04:14 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Lower levels of hate and injustice seem to go hand in hand with lower levels of wealth and income inequality, though they can never get close to being eliminated.
Upon seeing this inequality politicians and would be leaders can easily exploit its injustice and foment hate.

For some adding to the hate is their MO as opposed to dealing with the injustice and inequality.
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Old 30th October 2022, 04:44 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Upon seeing this inequality politicians and would be leaders can easily exploit its injustice and foment hate.

For some adding to the hate is their MO as opposed to dealing with the injustice and inequality.
Yup, because trying to fix the problem is difficult and not guaranteed to succeed.

Pointing the finger at "others" is easy and a nailed on success
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Old 30th October 2022, 05:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Upon seeing this inequality politicians and would be leaders can easily exploit its injustice and foment hate.

For some adding to the hate is their MO as opposed to dealing with the injustice and inequality.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yup, because trying to fix the problem is difficult and not guaranteed to succeed.

Pointing the finger at "others" is easy and a nailed on success
So one concrete step is. . .don't vote for haters!
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Old 30th October 2022, 05:49 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So one concrete step is. . .don't vote for haters!

Yes... if the voters are not themselves haters and they love the politicians who pander to their hate.

Or the voters think they are good Christians and want to make their country a christian nation and love the politicians who tell them christianity and Jesus and morality are under attack and rally them to defend their religion against the ones who hate it.

Or the voters love money and want to vote for politicians who tell them their money is under attack and they will rescue it for them.

Or the wily hater politicians have the ability to jerrymander the map and get SCOTUS to approve it.
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Old 30th October 2022, 05:52 AM   #37
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Maybe it would be worth breaking this down into components of what you would need to do. It looks to me as if you would have to get everybody to agree to a common understanding of what is and isn't an injustice, otherwise significant numbers of people will regard the society you are implementing as unjust, while others will see them as standing in the way of justice.... and you will have hatred coming back in.

Is there a way of getting everybody to agree on a practical definition of justice?
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Old 30th October 2022, 05:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Eliminate hate and injustice? Sure...when human nature goes through a massive evolution. All we can do is try and mitigate it; trying to eliminate it is a fool's errand.
Indeed... unless we evolve into something other than what we are now... it is hopeless... and given the statistical fact that the more stupid are having more children than the lesser stupid are doing... the prognosis is bleak indeed.
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Old 30th October 2022, 06:01 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Maybe it would be worth breaking this down into components of what you would need to do. It looks to me as if you would have to get everybody to agree to a common understanding of what is and isn't an injustice, otherwise significant numbers of people will regard the society you are implementing as unjust, while others will see them as standing in the way of justice.... and you will have hatred coming back in.

Is there a way of getting everybody to agree on a practical definition of justice?

And therein lies the insurmountable problem.... and even if we did begin to approach a possibility of this... it will be usurped by the bankers/lawyers/merchants/priests/politicians psychopaths to eventually subvert the whole thing into yet another way for their self-serving.
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 30th October 2022 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 30th October 2022, 06:36 AM   #40
shuttlt
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Indeed... unless we evolve into something other than what we are now... it is hopeless... and given the statistical fact that the more stupid are having more children than the lesser stupid are doing... the prognosis is bleak indeed.
Many philosophies have relied on this, Rousseau thought, freed from society, man would only want things compatible with other people's desires and so the contradictions in liberty and equality would melt away. Later there was Communist Man, who would arise to make Communism work, and European Man, to bring harmony to the EU. It's the underpants gnomes.
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