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Old 30th October 2022, 06:46 AM   #41
Leumas
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Many philosophies have relied on this, Rousseau thought, freed from society, man would only want things compatible with other people's desires and so the contradictions in liberty and equality would melt away. Later there was Communist Man, who would arise to make Communism work, and European Man, to bring harmony to the EU. It's the underpants gnomes.
I always say... communism was doomed to fail because it tried to bridle human nature.... however... capitalism has failed numerous times and is doomed to keep doing so... because it goes with human nature.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:02 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I always say... communism was doomed to fail because it tried to bridle human nature.... however... capitalism has failed numerous times and is doomed to keep doing so... because it goes with human nature.
Kind of depends what one thinks capitalism is supposed to deliver.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:13 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Indeed... unless we evolve into something other than what we are now... it is hopeless... and given the statistical fact that the more stupid are having more children than the lesser stupid are doing... the prognosis is bleak indeed.
Literally every single person who exists started out as a selfish, ignorant, helpless, demanding idiot. Then we grow up and some of us change. It is not impossible to evolve beyond our base starting nature. In fact some people believe that's the point of living.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:17 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Kind of depends what one thinks capitalism is supposed to deliver.
Capitalism by definition is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

And that is the reason for its numerous eventual disasters.... slavery and serfdoms and monarchies and wars and revolutions and fascisms and interminable sinusoidal market failures and banking failures and grifting and corruption and imperialism and colonialism etc. etc. etc. as history attests.... mainly... it goes with human nature.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And therein lies the insurmountable problem.... and even if we did begin to approach a possibility of this... it will be usurped by the bankers/lawyers/merchants/priests/politicians psychopaths to eventually subvert the whole thing into yet another way for their self-serving.
And yet progress is made. Today most of the world is much nicer than it was a thousand years ago, just as the world a thousand years ago was nicer than it was a thousand years before that. If the problem was truly insurmountable humanity would still be Paleolithic and clubbing each other with rocks.

Human nature may include selfishness and evil but it also includes altruism and good. We can choose to be better than we have been if we are given the opportunity. If we work to eliminate the obstacles that prevent opportunity to pursue the good we can improve.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Capitalism by definition is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

And that is the reason for its numerous eventual disasters.... slavery and serfdoms and monarchies and and wars and revolutions and fascisms and interminable sinusoidal market failures and banking failures and grifting and corruption and imperialism and colonialism etc. etc. etc. as history attests.... mainly... it goes with human nature.
That seems like a different kind of failure. It seems to read capitalism as an attempt yo achieve some kind of egalitarian progressive utopia in the way that socialist schemes have been. I would deny that it is the goal of capitalism to avoid such things any more than it was the goal of feudalism.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
That seems like a different kind of failure. It seems to read capitalism as an attempt yo achieve some kind of egalitarian progressive utopia in the way that socialist schemes have been. I would deny that it is the goal of capitalism to avoid such things any more than it was the goal of feudalism.

I agree ... that is not what I meant... Capitalism has as much purpose as a virus does... but the effect of it is... eventually... dystopian due to unbridled human nature.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:53 AM   #48
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I think the global movement to go egalitarian the past few hundred years certainly drives much of the hate and injustice we experience today, above the general noise level hate and violence. I still think it's a worthy goal despite the pushback.
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Old 30th October 2022, 07:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And yet progress is made. Today most of the world is much nicer than it was a thousand years ago, just as the world a thousand years ago was nicer than it was a thousand years before that. If the problem was truly insurmountable humanity would still be Paleolithic and clubbing each other with rocks.

Yes we are...


Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Human nature may include selfishness and evil but it also includes altruism and good. We can choose to be better than we have been if we are given the opportunity. If we work to eliminate the obstacles that prevent opportunity to pursue the good we can improve.
Yes...
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Old 30th October 2022, 08:19 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I agree ... that is not what I meant... Capitalism has as much purpose as a virus does... but the effect of it is... eventually... dystopian due to unbridled human nature.
This idea of what happens when you free human nature is pretty much the foundational thought of the Counter Enlightenment.
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Old 30th October 2022, 09:39 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So one concrete step is. . .don't vote for haters!
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Yes... if the voters are not themselves haters and they love the politicians who pander to their hate.

Or the voters think they are good Christians and want to make their country a christian nation and love the politicians who tell them christianity and Jesus and morality are under attack and rally them to defend their religion against the ones who hate it.

Or the voters love money and want to vote for politicians who tell them their money is under attack and they will rescue it for them.

Or the wily hater politicians have the ability to jerrymander the map and get SCOTUS to approve it.
I think your argument makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

Not everyone has to reject haters or realize that they might be haters themselves for a general rejection of hatred to have a positive effect on society.

Having said that I can't say how many people, or what percentage of the population, would have to reject hatred for it to have a positive effect on society.

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Old 30th October 2022, 10:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I think your argument makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

Not everyone has to reject haters or realize that they might be haters themselves for a general rejection of hatred to have a positive effect on society.

Having said that I can't say how many people, or what percentage of the population, would have to reject hatred for it to have a positive effect on society.
After dividing the haters and lovers of injustice in society, what then? This sounds like being asked to spend a night in the cells with a psychopath who has taken a dislike to you. Say despite your efforts, the haters and lovers of injustice grow in number... do you allow them to take power? Do you allow them to teach your children? Presumably they think think they are the good guys in this society and that they are unjustly persecuted, what should they do? This does not sound like a happy society we are talking about. It sounds like being stuck living together after a divorce where you both hate each other.
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Old 30th October 2022, 10:53 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
After dividing the haters and lovers of injustice in society, what then? This sounds like being asked to spend a night in the cells with a psychopath who has taken a dislike to you. Say despite your efforts, the haters and lovers of injustice grow in number... do you allow them to take power? Do you allow them to teach your children? Presumably they think think they are the good guys in this society and that they are unjustly persecuted, what should they do? This does not sound like a happy society we are talking about. It sounds like being stuck living together after a divorce where you both hate each other.
An intersting post.

Does a nation or a society do what Germany, in essence, did in making Nazism illegal and make outright politically motivated hatred illegal?

If so who calls the shots on what gets branded hate?

Was it that the Germans were so motivated to put Nazism behind them that the law was just a natural outgrowth of public opinion?
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Old 30th October 2022, 11:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This idea of what happens when you free human nature is pretty much the foundational thought of the Counter Enlightenment.
I am paradoxically a progressive Bernie Sanders supporter.... at least used to be until he kowtowed and surrendered.

But unfortunately I have grown to realize that all human endeavors no matter how noble and for the betterment of humanity, will eventually be insidiously usurped by the psychopaths to serve their self-serving.

And even the previously downtrodden when given half a chance will start treading on others... usually in the service of the ones who previously treaded on them.

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Last edited by Leumas; 30th October 2022 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 30th October 2022, 11:21 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I think your argument makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

Not everyone has to reject haters or realize that they might be haters themselves for a general rejection of hatred to have a positive effect on society.

Having said that I can't say how many people, or what percentage of the population, would have to reject hatred for it to have a positive effect on society.

When a truck is hurtling towards me I step aside because of reality... I do not stop and ponder what it will do if I talk to it nicely.
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Old 31st October 2022, 05:39 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I am paradoxically a progressive Bernie Sanders supporter.... at least used to be until he kowtowed and surrendered.
I don't see it as so paradoxical. We see similar problems with the world, it is natural that there is disagreement about what can be done. That is a much harder question.

Incidentally, as to the problem of evil men.... I have often thought about it in terms of the Red Queen from Alice Through The Looking Glass (the analogy is typically used in the context of evolution). When total war came in, every other nation that wanted to be independent had to follow suit. Once usury began to be practiced by one nation in Europe, eventually the others had to follow or be crushed. We may tell morality tales about things like women entering the workplace, or immigration, or the petrodollar.... and wish the powerful didn't prey on the week.... but many of these things come down to one nation attempting to maintain it's place against other nations. It's not much of a coincidence that serfdom and slavery ended at the same time as more efficient economic systems made them redundant. You have to run as fast as you can, just to stand still.

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Old 31st October 2022, 06:30 AM   #57
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I don’t have time to organize anything beyond disparate thoughts

A not insignificant portion of the population finds happiness in hating certain groups. We see this principle in certain socio-economic groups that gladly forego a benefit if receiving the benefit would mean that “those people” would also get the benefit.

A lot of Trumpism is apparent in the quote from the Trump supporter who was being hurt by a Trump policy: “he’s not hurting the right people.”

In the US, either redraw the state boundaries or break the country into 10-20 smaller countries. Because of certain western states, about one percent of the population controls 10% of the Senate. Meanwhile in California, 10% of the population controls two percent of the Senate.
ETA and change the primary system so that one of the whitest states in the country is the first to vote on primary candidates

Convince Americans that resources are limited and we will have to make some sacrifices if we don’t want the whole thing to break.

Convince white, hetero-, Christian men that they do not have an immortal, sacrosanct God-given right to enjoy privilege, power, and position at the expense of others. And convince them that sharing the power is more desirable than burning down the whole mother-******* structure.

Convince Americans that facts and evidence matter and that critical thinking is a useful tool.


That being said, the answer to the question appears to be never.


ETA:
I hope I’m not getting too Ferengi by saying it this way but, Hate and injustice will be eliminated when they become less profitable than the alternative.
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Old 31st October 2022, 07:15 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I donít have time to organize anything beyond disparate thoughts
Those tend to be the thoughts most in need of organization.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
A not insignificant portion of the population finds happiness in hating certain groups.

Jesus was a Capricorn

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'Cause everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on
Prove they can be better than at any time they choose
Someone doin' somethin' dirty decent folks can frown on
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me
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Old 31st October 2022, 01:38 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Eliminate hate and injustice? Sure...when human nature goes through a massive evolution. All we can do is try and mitigate it; trying to eliminate it is a fool's errand.
THIS.
Hate and Injustice have been around ..well, since man crawled out of the swamp.
We can make thing better, minimize the effects, but you can't change human nature.
"The Shadow Always Airses And Takes A New Form" as Gandalf said in LOTR.
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Old 31st October 2022, 04:57 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
Hate and Injustice have been around ..well, since man crawled out of the swamp.
We can make thing better, minimize the effects, but you can't change human nature.
"The Shadow Always Airses And Takes A New Form" as Gandalf said in LOTR.
Exactly....

And what is even more tragic is that the innate nature for hate and antagonism can be observed in 3 and 4 years old siblings when they fight and contend and wrangle with each other and are jealous of each other and steal from each other and try to dominate and subdue and bully each other and compete for their parents' love and attention.

I used to say we are chimps... but after watching a few documentaries on Baboon society I have concluded that in fact humans are more akin to Baboons than to chimps.
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Old 31st October 2022, 05:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Literally every single person who exists started out as a selfish, ignorant, helpless, demanding idiot. Then we grow up and some of us change. It is not impossible to evolve beyond our base starting nature. In fact some people believe that's the point of living.
I don't thinks that's a very good analogy. We're not born selfish or demanding or ignorant as those require a self awareness that infants just don't have yet. As babies, we instinctively react to stimuli such as hunger, pain or pleasure. There is no conscious choice being made. What we learn as we grow and our brains fully mature... or at least some of us learn...is to control in varying degrees our instinctive natures because there are consequences to not doing so. Those that don't learn to adequately do so tend to end up in jail, dead, or social outcasts. But even those that do learn to adequately control their instinctive nature only do so to a certain extent. Anyone, in the right circumstances, will do things they never dreamed they could do.
If being selfish means surviving, most people will be selfish. If it means being violent, they'll be violent.
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Old 31st October 2022, 05:28 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't thinks that's a very good analogy. We're not born selfish or demanding or ignorant as those require a self awareness that infants just don't have yet. As babies, we instinctively react to stimuli such as hunger, pain or pleasure. There is no conscious choice being made. What we learn as we grow and our brains fully mature... or at least some of us learn...is to control in varying degrees our instinctive natures because there are consequences to not doing so. Those that don't learn to adequately do so tend to end up in jail, dead, or social outcasts. But even those that do learn to adequately control their instinctive nature only do so to a certain extent. Anyone, in the right circumstances, will do things they never dreamed they could do.
If being selfish means surviving, most people will be selfish. If it means being violent, they'll be violent.
I pretty much agree with this. Also though, the world is a filtration mechanism for putting the kinds of people who are prepared to do this stuff in charge. Imagine the number of people you have to climb over to be President of the US, or China. Imagine what those people wouldn't have done to win the race. Then you have the same stuff going on between countries. It's a game of thrones. Once it was the most driven and ruthless warriors who ruled, now it is the most driven and ruthless bureaucrats. New boss same as the old boss.
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Old 31st October 2022, 06:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't thinks that's a very good analogy. We're not born selfish or demanding or ignorant as those require a self awareness that infants just don't have yet. As babies, we instinctively react to stimuli such as hunger, pain or pleasure. There is no conscious choice being made.
Selfishness, demand, and ignorance do not require self awareness or conscious choice. Babies are selfish and demanding and ignorant. It's not character flaws (or sins) for them to be so because that is their nature. They do not need a moral defense from judgment for being so, and thus you do not have to add layers of choice and awareness into the mix -- not everything boils down to moral philosophy. I'm not blaming babies for being babies, I'm just acknowledging the truth: they're selfish and stupid at that point in their existences. Pretending otherwise is silly.

Quote:
What we learn as we grow and our brains fully mature... or at least some of us learn...is to control in varying degrees our instinctive natures because there are consequences to not doing so.
Now there's a bleak take on things. You think the only reason people behave better is fear of negative consequences? No personal growth for its own sake, no spiritual advancement, no evolution to better selves...just fear of punishment? In either psychology or theology that's very oldschool thinking!

Quote:
Those that don't learn to adequately do so tend to end up in jail, dead, or social outcasts.
Not everything a human does relates solely to other humans; it's not always all about society.

Quote:
But even those that do learn to adequately control their instinctive nature only do so to a certain extent. Anyone, in the right circumstances, will do things they never dreamed they could do.
If being selfish means surviving, most people will be selfish. If it means being violent, they'll be violent.
And in the right circumstances we can also behave better. Plenty of people have prioritized doing what they feel to be right over their own survival. Plenty of people have shunned violence even when it would have been advantageous. Humans may be deeply flawed and quite screwed up but occasionally we get it right and do really quite well.

Sometimes the rank pessimism that permeates this place surprises me. C'mon, people! We're humanity! We invented the croissant, and fuzzy blankets, and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam! We're not completely hopeless, sheesh.
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Old 31st October 2022, 10:28 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Exactly....

And what is even more tragic is that the innate nature for hate and antagonism can be observed in 3 and 4 years old siblings when they fight and contend and wrangle with each other and are jealous of each other and steal from each other and try to dominate and subdue and bully each other and compete for their parents' love and attention.

I used to say we are chimps... but after watching a few documentaries on Baboon society I have concluded that in fact humans are more akin to Baboons than to chimps.

Haha yes, as far as the "hate" in kids. We find children delightful, and sometimes irritating, but always ...in-principle delightful, but that's only because we are so much and so absolutely bigger in every way. Like we find animals smaller than us, and even large animals in captivity or otherwise under our control, in-principle delightful, and somehow innocent and noble and whatever other cliched descriptors.

That is, to their compatriots, and to those weaker --- heh, like a slug a small boy might torture and kill --- kids, animals, all those wondrous creations of a good God, creations unsullied by man's evil ways, are probably just as evil and violent and monstrous as we are.

Yeah, Darwin's "nature red in tooth and claw". Nature, including small innocent children as well, no less than the rest of us.
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Old 1st November 2022, 12:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Selfishness, demand, and ignorance do not require self awareness or conscious choice. Babies are selfish and demanding and ignorant. It's not character flaws (or sins) for them to be so because that is their nature. They do not need a moral defense from judgment for being so, and thus you do not have to add layers of choice and awareness into the mix -- not everything boils down to moral philosophy. I'm not blaming babies for being babies, I'm just acknowledging the truth: they're selfish and stupid at that point in their existences. Pretending otherwise is silly.



Now there's a bleak take on things. You think the only reason people behave better is fear of negative consequences? No personal growth for its own sake, no spiritual advancement, no evolution to better selves...just fear of punishment? In either psychology or theology that's very oldschool thinking!



Not everything a human does relates solely to other humans; it's not always all about society.



And in the right circumstances we can also behave better. Plenty of people have prioritized doing what they feel to be right over their own survival. Plenty of people have shunned violence even when it would have been advantageous. Humans may be deeply flawed and quite screwed up but occasionally we get it right and do really quite well.

Sometimes the rank pessimism that permeates this place surprises me. C'mon, people! We're humanity! We invented the croissant, and fuzzy blankets, and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam! We're not completely hopeless, sheesh.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Frankly, I'm not interested in a long back and forth where nothing is accomplished because there is no "right" answer to this; it's all opinion.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 01:39 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Haha yes, as far as the "hate" in kids. We find children delightful, and sometimes irritating, but always ...in-principle delightful, but that's only because we are so much and so absolutely bigger in every way. Like we find animals smaller than us, and even large animals in captivity or otherwise under our control, in-principle delightful, and somehow innocent and noble and whatever other cliched descriptors.

That is, to their compatriots, and to those weaker --- heh, like a slug a small boy might torture and kill --- kids, animals, all those wondrous creations of a good God, creations unsullied by man's evil ways, are probably just as evil and violent and monstrous as we are.

Yeah, Darwin's "nature red in tooth and claw". Nature, including small innocent children as well, no less than the rest of us.

For a psychology class assignment long ago I spent some time observing children between the ages of 3 and 5 interacting in a kindergarten.

From observing all the ills and rungs of adult society reflected in this group... bully and minions and sycophants and cowards and plucky ones and compliant and defiant ones and wily and conniving and generous and mingy ... I changed my previous agreement with the notion of Tabula Rasa to concluding that it is rather Tabula Repleti Et Paulatim Erasa.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 02:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
For a psychology class assignment long ago I spent some time observing children between the ages of 3 and 5 interacting in a kindergarten.

From observing all the ills and rungs of adult society reflected in this group... bully and minions and sycophants and cowards and plucky ones and compliant and defiant ones and wily and conniving and generous and mingy ... I changed my previous agreement with the notion of Tabula Rasa to concluding that it is rather Tabula Repleti Et Paulatim Erasa.
My psychologist wife used to be a firm believer in nurture over nature, and a huge fan of practical behavior modification techniques. Then we had fraternal twins. The little brats had fully formed basic dispositions right out of the gate that they pretty much retain to this day.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 04:35 PM   #68
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One theory is that when animals, especially primates, make societies these groups adopt a high degree of altruistic values that promote the common good.

Babies get raised.

The aged are revered.

The weak are protected.

The dead get buried.

Mommas are treasured.

The crazy monkeys who want to blow up the group are send away to the forest, or at least lose their Twitter accounts.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 08:59 PM   #69
Leumas
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My psychologist wife used to be a firm believer in nurture over nature, and a huge fan of practical behavior modification techniques. Then we had fraternal twins. The little brats had fully formed basic dispositions right out of the gate that they pretty much retain to this day.

See this podcast proving irrefutably that it is definitely nature despite all the efforts and drugs and surgeries to forcibly prove otherwise in a tragic accidental experiment.

Think about the implication of this for the "Free Will" myth and the other social issues of today.


Here is a youtube video about it too:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Here is a longer TV episode about the case:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 2nd November 2022, 11:15 PM   #70
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Children are like clay and Play Dough: both can be molded, shaped...but clay will never be Play Dough and Play Dough will never be clay. Children are definitely born with very distinct personalities which are apparent from very early infancy.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 12:03 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Exactly....

And what is even more tragic is that the innate nature for hate and antagonism can be observed in 3 and 4 years old siblings when they fight and contend and wrangle with each other and are jealous of each other and steal from each other and try to dominate and subdue and bully each other and compete for their parents' love and attention.

I used to say we are chimps... but after watching a few documentaries on Baboon society I have concluded that in fact humans are more akin to Baboons than to chimps.
I genuinely can't recall a single fight or argument among my three sons. They all got on famously, still do. I can't imagine my family is unique in this.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 01:07 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I genuinely can't recall a single fight or argument among my three sons. They all got on famously, still do. I can't imagine my family is unique in this.

Not unique... but rare... you lucked out... and so did they.



Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Children are like clay and Play Dough: both can be molded, shaped...but clay will never be Play Dough and Play Dough will never be clay. Children are definitely born with very distinct personalities which are apparent from very early infancy.

Exactly.... you can mold a lump of lead but you cannot make it an eagle of gold.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 12:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I genuinely can't recall a single fight or argument among my three sons. They all got on famously, still do. I can't imagine my family is unique in this.
Not unique but very unusual! My husband grew up with 3 brothers with 6 years between eldest and youngest His youngest brother is his best friend but he has no relationship with his eldest brother and 3 brothers had very little contact with the 4th brother who is now deceased.
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Old 4th November 2022, 10:06 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
See this podcast proving irrefutably that it is definitely nature despite all the efforts and drugs and surgeries to forcibly prove otherwise in a tragic accidental experiment.
Pretty sure a data point of one does not irrfutably prove anything, and certainly nothing so broad and ambiguous as Nat v Nurt.

Full disclosure: I don't listen to podcasts on principle, nor watch tv for information. I watched the first two minutes of the short video, and the Speaker was still "ahh"-ing and "ummm"-ing around without saying anything much, so I googled "John/Joan twins" and found who he was slooooooooowly talking about: David Reimer. Wiki gave a detailed summary in a fraction of the time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

So Reimer identified as a guy...well, because he was one. He was told he wasn't (this is very akin to being trans, I imagine). But this doesn't prove nature over nurture across the board; it shows that once, in this one fundamental identification, that nature dominated the identification. That makes sense. If you told a child they were a Galapagos turtle, they would eventually reach a stage of formal reasoning where they could see that they weren't a Galapagos turtle and work out the cognitive dissonance.

An interesting counterpoint are feral children. They act like the animals they are raised with, till they are reassimilated into human contact, where they are nurtured back to being human, with mixed results.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

But this shows nothing about the less cut and dry, physical traits. Like, can you make a child a sociopath, or are they hard wired that way? Or are both do-able?

Quote:
Think about the implication of this for the "Free Will" myth and the other social issues of today.
Ok, I thought about it. One has nothing to do with the other.
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Old 4th November 2022, 01:29 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But this shows nothing about the less cut and dry, physical traits. Like, can you make a child a sociopath, or are they hard wired that way? Or are both do-able?
According to this psychology website:

Quote:
Psychology researchers generally believe that psychopaths tend to be born — it’s likely a genetic predisposition — while sociopaths tend to be made by their environment. (Which is not to say that psychopaths may not also suffer from some sort of childhood trauma.)
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Old 4th November 2022, 01:42 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Capitalism by definition is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

And that is the reason for its numerous eventual disasters.... slavery and serfdoms and monarchies and wars and revolutions and fascisms and interminable sinusoidal market failures and banking failures and grifting and corruption and imperialism and colonialism etc. etc. etc. as history attests.... mainly... it goes with human nature.
You realize, all of those things predate capitalism by millennia right? And serfdom is pretty clearly the antithesis of a free market.

Its the reason for revolutions? Really?
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Old 4th November 2022, 01:42 PM   #77
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People are social creatures, no matter how much the internet has put the dual Gods of "Lone Wolf Who Don't Need Nobody" and "Faux-autistic with no social skills who thinks that somewhere between a quality and superpower" on pedestals.

People NEED human interaction. And, to use a crude metaphor, if we don't get a steady diet of the normal stuff, we'll substitute with occasional hits of the stronger stuff.

Outrage, drama, hate... these are all freebasing your social interactions by cooking it on a spoon because you can't just take a smoke break every 4 hours like a normal person and you need your entire month's high at one time.

Penn Jillette was talking about Woo Slingers, the alien abduction fandom specifically, when he said, after showing footage of an alien abduction "survivors" convention:

Quote:
There's no evidence that these people had any unusual experiences. They're just like all the rest of us with dreams and fantasies. We all need a little attention. That shrink is a scumbag bitch taking money from lonely, sad people in exchange for ********, but the abductees are just people who pathologically need a little attention like... well, like us. You want to stop all this alien ********? Just pay attention to the people around you. Say hi. Humans are desperate for human contact. Let's not make our fellow travelers spend sixty bucks an hour to some pig-dog to be the center of attention. People shouldn't have to convince themselves they have a reptilian lover in outer space to get a few minutes of your time. P & T are siding with the creeps. We always have. We love them. We are them. There are enough earthly reasons to be interested in each other. The ******** just gets in the way.
And there's a truth in that. It's not THE truth for our current situation for reasons I'll get to, but there's a truth in it.

Now much like my "I understand why the rural areas of America are done playing nice" take, my patience with this explanation has shortened somewhat post 4 years of Trump and Jan 6. "I'm sad and disenfranchised" is a legit gripe, but it doesn't excuse what we've seen from the Right.
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Old 4th November 2022, 02:54 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You realize, all of those things predate capitalism by millennia right? ....

Define Capitalism... then see if all those things fit the definition of Capitalism... regardless of whether you like to call them that or not???


Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
... And serfdom is pretty clearly the antithesis of a free market.

No it is not... it is the consequence of Capitalism.

Hint: labor and humans are a commodity in the Capitalist Market system.... even if some do not want to admit it overtly.


Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
...
Its the reason for revolutions? Really?

Define revolution... and then ponder over the reason people revolt... and then think about how it is one of the consequences of Capitalism....

Hint: what were the reasons for the Russian, American, French, Spanish etc. etc. etc.
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Old 4th November 2022, 03:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
What concrete steps can we, as individuals and as a society, take to drive hate and injustice from our communities and our nations?
Look to what causes the hate and injustice and deal with that.

In the Uk case where I am, it's the tory government complicit with mainstream media that attempts to blame a bogeyman and create divisions as a distraction for how useless they are.

Get rid of governments that need a bogeyman to stay in power, they're a major cause of hate and injustice, especially with a willing media.
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Old 4th November 2022, 03:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
.... but it doesn't excuse what we've seen from the Right.
What we have seen is what occurs almost all the time... charlatans and brigands and psychopaths seizing the opportunity to exploit the simpletons and imbeciles who are so moronic that they do not mind or cannot understand that they are cutting their noses to spite their faces.
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