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Old 8th November 2022, 02:23 PM   #121
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
The Scottish regiments in India were one of the tools during the colonialization of India.




I once had a conversation with an Irish guy who was deriding and fulminating against "mexicans" for not speaking English and insisting that the OFFICIAL and ONLY language of the USA should be English... and was excoriating companies for writing Spanish as well as English packaging information on products. And he cannot speak anything other than English... not even Irish... despite having been born and raised all his life in Ireland.

This is yet another of the innate nastiness of humanity... in all times and all places since time immemorial, the oppressed eventually give up and join their oppressors to help them ravage and oppress the next lot of unfortunate human cattle.... as attested to by the history of humanity... but also by current affairs on the news.
I once had a friend that really needed help and their friends helped them.

That's an example of the innate non-nastiness of humanity... in all times and all places since time immemorial.

Us humans are becoming more caring over time, politically and generally.

there's no reason to assume it will continue but I do hope it will,

Nihilism doesn't achieve anything.
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Old 8th November 2022, 02:24 PM   #122
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"Everything sucks and nothing matters" is dumb man's idea of what being smart is.
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Old 8th November 2022, 05:15 PM   #123
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...
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Last edited by Leumas; 8th November 2022 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:24 PM   #124
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
...
I hilighted your post thinking letters might show up, trying to work out the puzzle then squinted and thought 'gah I give up'.

Then I quoted your post and look at it,

QUOTE=Leumas;13940294]...[/QUOTE

There was no reply from you there in the first place.

Last edited by p0lka; 9th November 2022 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 01:51 PM   #125
Leumas
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
What concrete steps can we, as individuals and as a society, take to drive hate and injustice from our communities and our nations?

A few points that have become evident to me throughout this thread...
  1. Learn to appreciate knowledge instead of deriding it.
  2. Learn to think rationally instead of falling prey to wishful thinking and other egregiously fallacious manners of unreasoning
  3. Learn how to learn
  4. Learn to read things... and read them properly.
  5. Learn to admit our errors when we make them... and how to not execrate the ones who point out the errors
  6. Learn about the Dunning Kruger Effect and learn how we can dismount off of our perches atop the peak of mount clueless... because misreading whatever little we read -- or not having read anything at all-- gave us the smugness stemming out of not knowing what we do not know
  7. Learn how to not be snarky even after our ignorance becomes evident to us
  8. Learn that Cognitive Dissonance pangs can be alleviated by knowledge and rational reasoning not by excoriating the REALITY that is dissonant with our FAITH and HOPE and wishful thinking
  9. Learn that staying quite in the face of ignorance will eventually cost us more than if we were to speak out against ignorance
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Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 9th November 2022 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 02:49 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Everything sucks and nothing matters" is dumb man's idea of what being smart is.
But the 90s did give us some pretty good music!
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Old 9th November 2022, 02:51 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But the 90s did give us some pretty good music!
Swing music almost came back. SWING... MUSIC.

Gregorian Chants charted.

The 90s had no idea what it actually wanted to be.
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Old 9th November 2022, 04:20 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
The Scottish regiments in India were one of the tools during the colonialization of India.




I once had a conversation with an Irish guy who was deriding and fulminating against "mexicans" for not speaking English and insisting that the OFFICIAL and ONLY language of the USA should be English... and was excoriating companies for writing Spanish as well as English packaging information on products. And he cannot speak anything other than English... not even Irish... despite having been born and raised all his life in Ireland.

This is yet another of the innate nastiness of humanity... in all times and all places since time immemorial, the oppressed eventually give up and join their oppressors to help them ravage and oppress the next lot of unfortunate human cattle.... as attested to by the history of humanity... but also by current affairs on the news.
Jesus loves you, Leumas.
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Old 9th November 2022, 05:42 PM   #129
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Learn the difference between quite and quiet.
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Old 9th November 2022, 05:47 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Learn the difference between quite and quiet.

Yup... thanks I made a typo... I appreciate the correction.

And thanks for all the other contributions you have made to this thread so far... much to learn from there.... oh wait... ah well... thanks anyway for that profound contribution... albeit belated and singular.... it certainly adds towards achieving the aim of the OP.... oh wait... ah well... thanks anyway for proving my point.

ETA: and I also thank you for having read my post so meticulously... at least you have one of the points listed in it down pat...
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Last edited by Leumas; 9th November 2022 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 06:00 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Jesus loves you, Leumas.

I assure you it is utterly unrequited love... unlike those five unfortunate virginal brides (Matthew 25) who loved him but whom he refused to let into the bridal chamber because they were not sufficiently oiled like the other 5 virgins and had to go out to fetch more due to his rude inconsiderate tardiness in coming to perform his bridegroom duties on them behind closed doors... and he left them distraught and out in the dark no matter how much they knocked on the door to let them in.

And I am thinking his love is more like that of David Koresh or Jeffrey Dahmer or Jim Jones... DEADLY that is.
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Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 9th November 2022 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Eliminate hate and injustice?

What kind of hate, what kind of injustice? Only as it applies to some in-group, or in general? If the former, then which in-group, and why?

For instance, if you eat other sentient beings, then that's an injustice right there. And if it can be ensured that death comes unawares and entirely painlessly to the creatures that are going to be eaten, then I suppose there's no hate per se, in either direction; but if it is aware that others like it are being killed off, or if it becomes aware of its own impending death at the hands of some other sentient agency, then there's going to be hate (or that creature's equivalent of hate) for at least a brief space; and in any case, regardless of awareness of what's happening (and so hate over it), the injustice part remains.

So, let's define our terms here to start with, I suppose.


Quote:
What concrete steps can we, as individuals and as a society, take to drive hate and injustice from our communities and our nations?

I don't see elimination happening any time soon, not even in theory, at least not unless we define an extremely narrow in-group, and perhaps not even then; but if we can agree to our definitions, I suppose we can then sit down and work out some way of at least reducing hate and injustice, in theory at any rate, why not? If at all we can agree that we want to do that last, that is, after having agreed on our definitions and specifically to the in-groups to which this justice-injustice and hate-no-hate thing is to apply.

Last edited by Chanakya; 9th November 2022 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 10th November 2022, 09:19 AM   #133
Leumas
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
What kind of hate, what kind of injustice? Only as it applies to some in-group, or in general? If the former, then which in-group, and why?

Exactly.... wishful thinking about justice ... while one's country's Banking system is shagging the world senseless and its Empire robbing humanity blind, STILL after having done it for centuries... is oblivious cluelessness.


Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
For instance, if you eat other sentient beings, then that's an injustice right there. And if it can be ensured that death comes unawares and entirely painlessly to the creatures that are going to be eaten, then I suppose there's no hate per se, in either direction; but if it is aware that others like it are being killed off, or if it becomes aware of its own impending death at the hands of some other sentient agency, then there's going to be hate (or that creature's equivalent of hate) for at least a brief space; and in any case, regardless of awareness of what's happening (and so hate over it), the injustice part remains.

Indeed... the fact that we have to eat and excrete is all a rational person needs to conclude the inevitable inequality, injustice and misery of humanity (see this post)... and not just for the poor victims whose flesh we HAVE TO wrench off of them in order to maintain ours... but also the injustice to the other humans who have to raise and butcher and distribute and package and stack the flesh and other produce.... not to mention the ones who take care of the excretions logistics.


Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
So, let's define our terms here to start with, I suppose.

I don't see elimination happening any time soon, not even in theory, at least not unless we define an extremely narrow in-group, and perhaps not even then;

Absolutely right!!!


Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
but if we can agree to our definitions, I suppose we can then sit down and work out some way of at least reducing hate and injustice, in theory at any rate, why not? If at all we can agree that we want to do that last, that is, after having agreed on our definitions and specifically to the in-groups to which this justice-injustice and hate-no-hate thing is to apply.

And after that ... reality of human nature starts to insidiously and inexorably vitiate it all...

Originally Posted by Arthur C. Clarke, Childhood's End
Utopia was here at last: its novelty had not yet been assailed by the supreme enemy of all Utopias—boredom.

Anyone who has any ability to observe REALITY the way it is, instead of the way one wished it were... can see that more often than not, the biggest source of strife and injustice and mayhem for one.... is one's kin and kith... not to mention work colleagues and sports team and church ... long before the outgroups even start coming into the picture.

Personal conflicts biggest cause of murders in U.S
Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The first systematic, in-depth look at murder and suicide in the United States shows that personal conflicts are the major factor in such deaths, as opposed to random violence or other crime.... "The pattern that stands out the most is we see a lot of intimate partner violence, mental health problems and substance abuse,” said the CDC’s Debra Karch, who led the study.
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Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 10th November 2022 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 10th November 2022, 10:46 AM   #134
arayder
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Quote:
arayder 1 What concrete steps can we, as individuals and as a society, take to drive hate and injustice from our communities and our nations?
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
A few points that have become evident to me throughout this thread...
  1. Learn to appreciate knowledge instead of deriding it.
  2. Learn to think rationally instead of falling prey to wishful thinking and other egregiously fallacious manners of unreasoning
  3. Learn how to learn
  4. Learn to read things... and read them properly.
  5. Learn to admit our errors when we make them... and how to not execrate the ones who point out the errors
  6. Learn about the Dunning Kruger Effect and learn how we can dismount off of our perches atop the peak of mount clueless... because misreading whatever little we read -- or not having read anything at all-- gave us the smugness stemming out of not knowing what we do not know
  7. Learn how to not be snarky even after our ignorance becomes evident to us
  8. Learn that Cognitive Dissonance pangs can be alleviated by knowledge and rational reasoning not by excoriating the REALITY that is dissonant with our FAITH and HOPE and wishful thinking
  9. Learn that staying quite in the face of ignorance will eventually cost us more than if we were to speak out against ignorance
Well said. It sounds like a prescription for self control and self discipline.

I'd add in calling hate and injustice out when we see it.
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Old 10th November 2022, 11:13 AM   #135
Leumas
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well said. It sounds like a prescription for self control and self discipline.


Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I'd add in calling hate and injustice out when we see it.

Indeed!!!
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
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Old 10th November 2022, 12:21 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Jesus loves you, Leumas.
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I assure you it is utterly unrequited love... unlike those five unfortunate virginal brides (Matthew 25) who loved him but whom he refused to let into the bridal chamber because they were not sufficiently oiled like the other 5 virgins and had to go out to fetch more due to his rude inconsiderate tardiness in coming to perform his bridegroom duties on them behind closed doors... and he left them distraught and out in the dark no matter how much they knocked on the door to let them in.

And I am thinking his love is more like that of David Koresh or Jeffrey Dahmer or Jim Jones... DEADLY that is.
Ok, maybe he doesn't love you.

Sidebar: parables really aren't your thing, are they?

Double sidebar: the virgins were bridesmaids, not 10 brides at once for one guy in a wedding. The maids carried lamps to light the nighttime ceremony, not the freaking bride. Did you seriously not understand that or were you just making stuff up?
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Old 12th November 2022, 12:19 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Jesus loves you, Leumas.
I don't want to encourage religion bashing by saying this. . .

But the religions teach us to love one another. Yeah, I know some folks use their religions to foster hate. But at the root of all the religions is love.

And love conquers hate. . .especially if it keeps its left hand up and stays out of punching range.
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Old 12th November 2022, 12:26 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I don't want to encourage religion bashing by saying this. . .

But the religions teach us to love one another. Yeah, I know some folks use their religions to foster hate. But at the root of all the religions is love.

And love conquers hate. . .especially if it keeps its left hand up and stays out of punching range.
Brother Leumas argues that religion is the love of root.
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Old 12th November 2022, 05:14 PM   #139
Leumas
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I don't want to encourage religion bashing by saying this. . .

But the religions teach us to love one another. Yeah, I know some folks use their religions to foster hate. But at the root of all the religions is love.

And love conquers hate. . .especially if it keeps its left hand up and stays out of punching range.

Nope... at the root of all religion is an Extortion Racket...

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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
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Old 13th November 2022, 02:07 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Nope... at the root of all religion is an Extortion Racket...

IMO it's more about control than cash - though demanding and getting cash is an effective way of demonstrating control.
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Old 13th November 2022, 06:30 AM   #141
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Can't even eliminate hatred for theists from this thread. Don't even want to. Ooh, reform the court system. Cool story. Now do Russia. The premise of this thread is absurd. Everybody starts with a beam in their eye that they have no intention of removing. If you can't even do that, if you can't even acknowledge it, how can you possibly think about doing any of the rest of it? The hubris is breathtaking.
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Old 13th November 2022, 12:26 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I once had a friend that really needed help and their friends helped them.

That's an example of the innate non-nastiness of humanity... in all times and all places since time immemorial.

Us humans are becoming more caring over time, politically and generally.

there's no reason to assume it will continue but I do hope it will,

Nihilism doesn't achieve anything.
I restate again my theory that groups of humans who band together for the compassionate and just betterment of individuals and to advance the common good will be better off than groups that do not do so.
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Old 13th November 2022, 12:29 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can't even eliminate hatred for theists from this thread. Don't even want to. Ooh, reform the court system. Cool story. Now do Russia. The premise of this thread is absurd. Everybody starts with a beam in their eye that they have no intention of removing. If you can't even do that, if you can't even acknowledge it, how can you possibly think about doing any of the rest of it? The hubris is breathtaking.
And yet there is Real World evidence of individuals changing their minds. Saint Paul for example. There is a potential road to Damascus for all of us.

Saw this for the first time in December 1970 just before Hair closed its run in Toronto:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 14th November 2022, 03:15 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I restate again my theory that groups of humans who band together for the compassionate and just betterment of individuals and to advance the common good will be better off than groups that do not do so.

Until another group comes over with a Gatling machine gun and perforates them into shredded lumps of flesh and takes over their resources.... e.g.... well.... history....
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Old 14th November 2022, 03:17 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it's more about control than cash - though demanding and getting cash is an effective way of demonstrating control.

And maintaining control to get more cash to get more control to get more power and thus more cash.

Ah... and better Gatling guns...
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
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Old 14th November 2022, 03:37 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can't even eliminate hatred for theists from this thread. Don't even want to. Ooh, reform the court system. Cool story. Now do Russia. The premise of this thread is absurd. Everybody starts with a beam in their eye that they have no intention of removing. If you can't even do that, if you can't even acknowledge it, how can you possibly think about doing any of the rest of it? The hubris is breathtaking.
IMO it's more of an issue with organised religion.

Sooner or later organised religion seems to change from being for the benefit of the members of that religion and instead it focuses more on the power, prestige and wealth of those running the religion.

There are exceptions, but IMO they just serve to prove the rule.
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Old 14th November 2022, 06:09 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I restate again my theory that groups of humans who band together for the compassionate and just betterment of individuals and to advance the common good will be better off than groups that do not do so.
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Until another group comes over with a Gatling machine gun and perforates them into shredded lumps of flesh and takes over their resources.... e.g.... well.... history....
As society can work for peace, justice and the common good and still be able to defend itself.

But I will admit that having the power and the means to repel attackers could be misused by the powers that be.
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Old 14th November 2022, 09:43 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can't even eliminate hatred for theists from this thread. Don't even want to.
Jesus was a Capricorn
He ate organic food
He believed in love and peace
And never wore no shoes
Long hair, beard and sandals
And a funky bunch of friends
Reckon we'd just nail Him up
If He come down again

(Kris Kristofferson, songwriting about this thread's topic)
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Old 14th November 2022, 10:06 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Jesus was a Capricorn
He ate organic food
He believed in love and peace
And never wore no shoes
Long hair, beard and sandals
And a funky bunch of friends
Reckon we'd just nail Him up
If He come down again

(Kris Kristofferson, songwriting about this thread's topic)
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Old 14th November 2022, 10:34 AM   #150
theprestige
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it's more of an issue with organised religion.
I think your opinion is mistaken. Atheists very often use derogatory language to describe people who subscribe to a religion. It happens even on this forum all the time. Or look at the way progressives on this forum commonly talk about conservatives. Not just about the ideology or the party leadership, but the people themselves.

And this is what I mean about the premise of the thread. How can there be concrete steps to eliminate hate and injustice when people won't even take the concrete step of admitting they do it, and the concrete step of saying it's bad and they should stop?
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Old 14th November 2022, 10:55 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think your opinion is mistaken. Atheists very often use derogatory language to describe people who subscribe to a religion. It happens even on this forum all the time. Or look at the way progressives on this forum commonly talk about conservatives. Not just about the ideology or the party leadership, but the people themselves.

And this is what I mean about the premise of the thread. How can there be concrete steps to eliminate hate and injustice when people won't even take the concrete step of admitting they do it, and the concrete step of saying it's bad and they should stop?
Free advice to conservatives: Stop voting for, supporting, and defending absolute garbage people political candidates and maybe you'll stop getting associated with them.

Another option is to cry harder.
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Old 14th November 2022, 10:58 AM   #152
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Like I said...
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Old 14th November 2022, 11:04 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like I said...
Could you clarify what you mean here?

Did my post exhibit hate or injustice towards you or conservatives in general?

Do you really think it's unfair to associate people with the leaders they support and defend?
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Old 14th November 2022, 11:30 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think your opinion is mistaken. Atheists very often use derogatory language to describe people who subscribe to a religion. It happens even on this forum all the time. Or look at the way progressives on this forum commonly talk about conservatives. Not just about the ideology or the party leadership, but the people themselves.

And this is what I mean about the premise of the thread. How can there be concrete steps to eliminate hate and injustice when people won't even take the concrete step of admitting they do it, and the concrete step of saying it's bad and they should stop?
slightly offtopic:
I don't think it's correct to compare atheism versus theism with political ideologies as they aren't the same category.
One is differing opinions about how to proceed in the world and what you care about, the other is about how the majority of the worlds population believe with absolutely no evidence in fantasy.
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Old 14th November 2022, 11:33 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like I said...
None of that was hate or injustice? It was advice.
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Old 14th November 2022, 11:57 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
slightly offtopic:
I don't think it's correct to compare atheism versus theism with political ideologies as they aren't the same category.
One is differing opinions about how to proceed in the world and what you care about, the other is about how the majority of the worlds population believe with absolutely no evidence in fantasy.
There are a wide range of excuses that people will find to indulge in and rationalize their urge to hate. The identifying characteristics of the various excuses are of course varied, but the rationalizations and the hatred all tend to run along similar lines.

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
None of that was hate or injustice? It was advice.
Haha oh wow.

No.

You're looking at the rationalization part. JK is trying to give me advice on how to avoid being an object of hatred.

This is in fact the only really good, concrete advice for eliminating hate and injustice that I've seen so far in the thread: Find people who hate you, and then do whatever they say you need to do to stop them from hating you. Which is fine, as far as it goes. But it goes to some pretty dark and genocidal places. So I guess it's not really fine after all. But at least it's concrete.
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Old 14th November 2022, 12:09 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
None of that was hate or injustice? It was advice.
Look, if a conservative ever faces the consequences of his own actions, then by (theprestige's) definition that's hate. It's as simple as that.
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Old 14th November 2022, 12:20 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
..snip..You're looking at the rationalization part. JK is trying to give me advice on how to avoid being an object of hatred.

This is in fact the only really good, concrete advice for eliminating hate and injustice that I've seen so far in the thread: Find people who hate you, and then do whatever they say you need to do to stop them from hating you. Which is fine, as far as it goes. But it goes to some pretty dark and genocidal places. So I guess it's not really fine after all. But at least it's concrete.
The highlighted only works if you assume hatred is what is felt for the other side of a political ideology though?

I don't see that being the case, hate is a strong feeling.
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Old 14th November 2022, 12:35 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Haha oh wow.

No.

You're looking at the rationalization part. JK is trying to give me advice on how to avoid being an object of hatred.

This is in fact the only really good, concrete advice for eliminating hate and injustice that I've seen so far in the thread: Find people who hate you, and then do whatever they say you need to do to stop them from hating you. Which is fine, as far as it goes. But it goes to some pretty dark and genocidal places. So I guess it's not really fine after all. But at least it's concrete.
No, I wasn't saying that at all. You seem to be Big Mad that people associate you and other conservative with the leaders you choose, who are for the most part, objectively awful, awful people. That's 100% on you. If you don't want to be associated with awful people, then stop voting for them. It's as simple as that.

And your pretense that the blowback conservatives are now getting for their terrible life choices somehow constitutes "hatred and injustice" is undercut by the fact that you were perfectly comfortable choosing hatred and injustice for other people when you voted for Trump and your political party allowed themselves to turn into a cultist cesspool of bigotry and conspiracy theories.

Tl;dr version: Cry harder.
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Old 14th November 2022, 12:40 PM   #160
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Well, thanks, theprestige.

You sorta' backed into one concrete step we, as individuals, can take to drive hate out of our community.
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