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Tags Ron DeSantis , trump

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Old 11th November 2022, 02:09 PM   #1
Venom
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The DeSantis gambit

If you regard Donald Trump as a uniquely toxic and dangerous threat to the nation, should we starting considering backing Ron DeSantis? He's currently gaining approval among establishment Republicans and major media outlets, provoking the ire of Trump and much of his base. I've also seen many other MAGA people sharply criticize the former president after he introduced DeSantis' new nickname at a Pennsylvania rally last week.

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And the grumblings grew louder after Trump doubled down on his attacks the day after the midterms on Truth Social.

I regard DeSantis as another shameless buffoon. He's done three things that have caught my eye recently though. He's put in work to protect the environment and natural resources of Florida, raised minimum teacher pay, and backed candidates not aligned with Trump. These are things the rightwing base do not normally crusade for. And IMO they provide an opening for liberals and Never-Trumpers to ingratiate themselves with the DeSantis coalition as it may turn out to be.

This I think could backfire if DeSantis decides not to run and backs Trump; he's 44 and he may feel he has plenty of time. It could also backfire if the establishment cannot or will not reign him in and he goes full Trumpist once in power. But I think if there's any opportunity to create a wedge within the Republican power structure, if only to take away a single-digit slice of the general election numbers in 2024, it's now.
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Old 11th November 2022, 02:29 PM   #2
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Surgeon General Ladapo

Governor DeSantis appointed Dr. Joseph Ladapo as Surgeon General of Florida, who is a crank when it comes to Covid-19 vaccines. Link1 Link2. Enough said, because I don't want this to become a derail.
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Old 11th November 2022, 03:32 PM   #3
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I sort of get the point of the OP, but "should we start considering backing" seems a bit excessive. To be not as bad as Trump requires little virtue.
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Old 11th November 2022, 03:39 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I sort of get the point of the OP, but "should we start considering backing" seems a bit excessive. To be not as bad as Trump requires little virtue.
Just to get the man over the initial ********* Trump will throw at him. It could also possibly hurt DeSantis to be pictured shaking hands with Radical Leftists and RINOs.
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Old 11th November 2022, 04:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Just to get the man over the initial ********* Trump will throw at him. It could also possibly hurt DeSantis to be pictured shaking hands with Radical Leftists and RINOs.
Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?
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Old 11th November 2022, 04:10 PM   #6
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I actually think that since DeSantis may be both slightly more aware of reality, and more of an actual believer in his "cause", DeSantis may well be MORE dangerous to the USA than Trump.
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Old 11th November 2022, 04:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?
"Radical Leftist" = Anyone Trump doesn't like this week.
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Old 11th November 2022, 04:34 PM   #8
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Or...Trump is trying to draw out fake MAGA with this cunning ploy!

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Old 11th November 2022, 08:23 PM   #9
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If something is retruthed does that make it truthier?
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Old 11th November 2022, 10:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
If something is retruthed does that make it truthier?
I assume Trump needs retruthing from time to time because he leaks.
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Old 11th November 2022, 11:01 PM   #11
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They are both toxic piles of ****. DeSantis is supposed to be much smarter but doesn't show it. Trump is clinically insane and does. Neither is in any way desirable anywhere near government.
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Old 12th November 2022, 02:35 AM   #12
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The only thing I'm hoping for is that DeSantis runs because then Trump (and DeSantis) will have a nasty fight for the nomination, and Trump won't be able to just receive it on a silver platter without spending resources including money on the fight to secure the nomination. It could also leave whichever one of them emerges wounded (politically). So yes I did make the argument in another thread that it's a blessing in disguise that DeSantis won, and that he won by a strong margin. Otherwise, who is going to stand between Trump and the Republican nomination. None of this is an endorsement of DeSantis. I'm just rooting for him to take out Trump.

And it all hinges on DeSantis actually deciding to run for president. I think he will, but I don't know what he's thinking. Maybe he wants to wait 4 more years and avoid a direct confrontation with Trump. But by 2028 his star may have faded. Voters can be fickle. I think if he's ambitious, now is the time to strike.
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Old 12th November 2022, 02:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I actually think that since DeSantis may be both slightly more aware of reality, and more of an actual believer in his "cause", DeSantis may well be MORE dangerous to the USA than Trump.
I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue.

The OP said DeSantis "backed candidates not aligned with Trump". That's because he doesn't want Trump loyalists in positions of power. He want DeSantis loyalists.
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Old 12th November 2022, 03:57 AM   #14
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Just as in 2015, the first Republican to declare will certainly lose the Nomination, no matter who he is.
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Old 12th November 2022, 06:31 AM   #15
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I think it's time to acknowledge that there are no Republicans who should be "backed" by anyone outside the Republican party.

They're all one of complicit with, indifferent to, or unable to oppose, the antics of the Republican party over the last decade or more. Trumpism is just the latest, most extreme version of a party that has gotten steadily worse, and shows no signs of changing course.

A pox on all their houses. It doesn't matter who they nominate in 2024, everyone else just needs to focus on the one thing that matters: getting as many Democrats elected as possible. And that means motivating a lot of non-voters to come out and vote, and vote Democrat. That's what the Democratic party should focus on, and essentially ignore the Republicans as much as possible.
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Old 12th November 2022, 09:25 AM   #16
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What a bloody crying shame that an out and out criminal is delicately handled like a king, requiring to be 'de-throned' by an up-and-comer scumbag instead of already being clapped in irons. Will CRIMINAL LEGAL consequences ever be brought to bear against Drumpf? Or will the country settle for a series of civil actions that only serves to keep that destructive miscreant forever in our collective misery.
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Old 12th November 2022, 09:50 AM   #17
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**** DeSantis and anyone else peddling the lie that grade school textbooks are teaching critical race theory.
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Old 12th November 2022, 09:56 AM   #18
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DeSantis appeared with Biden just a few weeks ago following the hurricane. Bipartisanship is not such a bad thing.

And why would he want to wait six years to run? He’s got the momentum right now. Six years is too far away to keep momentum. He should run in 2024.
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Old 12th November 2022, 12:40 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I think it's time to acknowledge that there are no Republicans who should be "backed" by anyone outside the Republican party.
I thought this was about the "Let's-play-with-FIRE" strategy that paid off for Democrats in the mid-terms: Democrats said Trumpist candidates posed an existential threat to the country, but boosted them in their primary fights anyway because they would be weaker candidates in the general election. Democrats also did better than expected via more effective short-term gerrymandering.

DeSantis is going to do what he's going to do. If he runs, it will make the Republican who emerges less electable. All other things being equal, DeSantis would be more difficult to defeat than Trump. Not all other things are equal, however. Trump plays chicken by throwing the steering wheel out the window and making sure everyone sees him do it. He doesn't care at all about the Republican Party. If DeSantis were to win the nomination, Trump would try to take him down. Trump claimed Lyin' Ted Cruz cheated to win the Iowa caucus in 2016. If Trump were to win the nomination, then DeSantis would kiss the ring. And other Republicans would also fall in line. But Trump has so much baggage. Democrats helping DeSantis would fuel Trump's narrative that Deep State is out to get him. I think prediction markets overstate the likelihood a Republican will win in 2024. Unless Trump dies soon.

Trump's centrist positioning in 2016 is often overlooked. He was considered the least conservative candidate in the wide field. He did not take the stupid tax pledge. He vowed to protect Social Security and Medicare. He ran on the idea that trade wars were good and traditional wars were bad (with the realpolitick defense of Putin "you think our country is so innocent?"). He waved a rainbow flag, said the Electoral College was moronic, and didn't even expect to win. In 2020, he ran as Mr. Conservative, and lost. He has so much baggage, and weak coattails. A DeSantis run forces him to take positions.

What's Trump going to do with a second term? He's interested in attention, not governing.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue.
I don't believe in Republican ideologues anymore. The Trump presidency showed how craven and transactional the vast majority of them are.

One must weigh four more years of Trump against potentially eight years of DeSantis. Was Trump soooo bad? Yes. Yes, he was. People say, "Well, the world didn't come to an end, did it?" No, but if you had a 2% chance and it went to a 4% chance, it was always unlikely, but still, it's the world. What made Trump so bad, apart from the chaos? Mostly his response to the pandemic and election theft (impeachments 1 and 2).

The most remarkable achievement from the Trump White House was the vaccine. DeSantis says Trump came under the spell of the deep state by listening to Fauci and imposing lockdowns.

When someone loses the general election, they're supposed to go away. They don't get to run again. But Trump says the election was stolen, and others have gone along with the lie. A nomination fight could force discussion of the issue. At the debates, moderators will ask everyone who thinks the 2020 election was stolen to raise their hand.

I hoped for a Trump coup because it would almost certainly fail, and then Trumpism would be immediately rejected. Maybe a slow, fading rejection is best in the long run. Trump cost Republicans in 2018, 2020, and 2022. So much winning.
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Old 12th November 2022, 07:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue.

The OP said DeSantis "backed candidates not aligned with Trump". That's because he doesn't want Trump loyalists in positions of power. He want DeSantis loyalists.
I don't agree. The Trump phenomenon is a cult of personality. It's not easy to replace such a thing.
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Old 12th November 2022, 07:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
I don't agree. The Trump phenomenon is a cult of personality. It's not easy to replace such a thing.

The cult or the personality? I'm not sure either is within de Santis's reach.
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Old 12th November 2022, 08:31 PM   #22
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I think DeSantis's success is more a case of Florida's weird demographics not giving the Democrats the same "in" they have in other places more than anything he's doing.

I think DeSantis is giving himself WAY too much credit for living in a state that's just a tough nut for the Democrat's to crack.

The Dems find a way to sell "Okay we're for abortion, but we're still worth voting for" to Florida's ultrareligious but otherwise left leaning Hispanic population and DeSantis will be selling pencils on the street corner.
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Old 12th November 2022, 10:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think DeSantis's success is more a case of Florida's weird demographics not giving the Democrats the same "in" they have in other places more than anything he's doing.

I think DeSantis is giving himself WAY too much credit for living in a state that's just a tough nut for the Democrat's to crack.

.
Plus remember 2 points:

- while Deathsantis had a very strong showing in 2022, in the previous election he won by less than 1%. It's possible that this one election was an abbreviation

- his opponent this time was a former Republican. I wonder if that might have impacted the election at all. i.e.potential democratic voters decided to sit out rather than decide between a republican and Republican-lite (one calorie... Not fascist enough)

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Old 12th November 2022, 11:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Plus remember 2 points:

- while Deathsantis had a very strong showing in 2022, in the previous election he won by less than 1%. It's possible that this one election was an abbreviation

- his opponent this time was a former Republican. I wonder if that might have impacted the election at all. i.e.potential democratic voters decided to sit out rather than decide between a republican and Republican-lite (one calorie... Not fascist enough)

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I'm guessing you meant aberration.

No idea, but I suppose if you look at the Senate race, you can see that Rubio also won by about the same amount. DeSantis beat the margin by a couple of percentage points.

Here is one possibility...

...one of my co-workers here in Japan voted in his home state of Arizona but was only able to vote for federal posts such as Senator, but NOT for Governor.

Could it be that Florida does the same for those voting from outside the state only allowing them to vote Senate hence the wider gap?

This could perhaps say more about the anti-Trump turn of the GOP (possibly?). Relatively non-Trumpers did better than pro-Trumpers?
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Old 13th November 2022, 12:27 AM   #25
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Old 13th November 2022, 01:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?
Well it would include you, unless you have personally bowed before him and sucked his weird dick.

All honesty, can you look at Reagan”s fiscal policies and separate them from what Clinton proposed?
It’s a cult, and it needs to stop.
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Old 13th November 2022, 01:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
If you regard Donald Trump as a uniquely toxic and dangerous threat to the nation,
I regard him as a culmination, perhaps an acceleration of what the GOP has been doing for 40+ years. Thi is why I don't believe in "sensible Republicans".

Quote:
should we starting considering backing Ron DeSantis?
no. Trump was a symptom. The GQP is the disease.

Quote:
He's currently gaining approval among establishment Republicans and major media outlets,
The media has been talking him up for years.

Quote:
provoking the ire of Trump and much of his base. I've also seen many other MAGA people sharply criticize the former president after he introduced DeSantis' new nickname at a Pennsylvania rally last week.
Remember how all the Republicans hated Trump early on? Ya, they'll get back in line.


Quote:
I regard DeSantis as another shameless buffoon. He's done three things that have caught my eye recently though. He's put in work to protect the environment and natural resources of Florida, raised minimum teacher pay, and backed candidates not aligned with Trump. These are things the rightwing base do not normally crusade for. And IMO they provide an opening for liberals and Never-Trumpers to ingratiate themselves with the DeSantis coalition as it may turn out to be.
Never Trumpers will totally jump on this bandwagon. Just give them an excuse. Plenty of white middle-class "moderates" as well.

Quote:
This I think could backfire if DeSantis decides not to run and backs Trump; he's 44 and he may feel he has plenty of time.
The general thought is to strike while the iron is hot. It doesn't matter if it is someone else's "turn". You never know what will happen or who will be the next big thing. There's going to be stiff competition now. Waiting another 4 years will only make it tougher.

Quote:
It could also backfire if the establishment cannot or will not reign him in and he goes full Trumpist once in power.
The only problem they had with Trump was keeping him on message.

Quote:
But I think if there's any opportunity to create a wedge within the Republican power structure, if only to take away a single-digit slice of the general election numbers in 2024, it's now.
I just want to see Trump make him cry at the first debate. People forget how badly Gillam trounced him and damn near got himself and Bill Nelson's boomer ass elected.
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Old 13th November 2022, 01:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
DeSantis appeared with Biden just a few weeks ago following the hurricane. Bipartisanship is not such a bad thing.

And why would he want to wait six years to run? He’s got the momentum right now. Six years is too far away to keep momentum. He should run in 2024.
Biden should have refused to let him appear. Desantis is a scumbag fascist **** and needs to be shown what Americans did to his ilk in the 40s.

ETA: The Americans, i.e., non-republicans, are three parties. The main of it is rightist, a bunch are center-left, and about a dozen people at the state or federal level are progressives.

The republicans are dedicated to a theocratic plutocracy.
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Old 13th November 2022, 05:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I just want to see Trump make him cry at the first debate. People forget how badly Gillam trounced him and damn near got himself and Bill Nelson's boomer ass elected.
I think Trump would son him in live debate regardless of material. I think about the optics advantages of Trump being taller and DeSantis' "whiny" voice, etc.
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Old 13th November 2022, 05:51 PM   #30
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I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.

https://img.ifunny.co/images/f247a0e...48a3e81_1.webp

Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.
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Old 13th November 2022, 06:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.

https://img.ifunny.co/images/f247a0e...48a3e81_1.webp

Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.
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Old 13th November 2022, 06:19 PM   #32
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All this shows is Garrison is a raging coward prepared to suck up to the latest "strongman" in order to push his comics. Just watch. When DeSantis crashes and burns, he will pick some other wannabe fascist to latch onto.
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Old 13th November 2022, 07:50 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.
...

Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.
Maybe he thinks Jesus only allows one character with muscles to be shown in any comic at any time


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Old 14th November 2022, 08:01 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think Trump would son him in live debate regardless of material. I think about the optics advantages of Trump being taller and DeSantis' "whiny" voice, etc.
Unless DeSantis is prepared to go nuclear and say, “Donald let’s compare our heights - we’ll take our shoes off and stand next to each other.”

Or he could challenge him to race down a ramp.
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Old 14th November 2022, 08:21 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.
Ben Garrison is a bell end.
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Old 14th November 2022, 08:37 AM   #36
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DeSantis is scarily good at selling the "You want freedom, I want the freedom to oppress you, so we're on even ground" message. He's a poster child for how the Right has blinders on about the Paradox of Tolerance.

His entire campaign was about how Florida is "freedom state" but it's all the same "The only freedom I care about is the freedom to hurt other people or be factually wrong about something" the Republicans love so much.
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Old 14th November 2022, 08:40 AM   #37
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Duh Santas worries me. He has more to offer the corrupt big timers of the rethuglican Partei than Trumpf: real estate, casinos, banking (the laundromat kind), smuggling, public contracts -- hell, outright slavery for all I can see.

Trumpf can service the emotional needs of the hooligan vote and that's about it.
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Old 14th November 2022, 08:43 AM   #38
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Also I've seen the dude in person a couple/few times (He's a not uncommon presence on military based in Florida) and he does have more like... street level charisma than Trump does. He's harder to "hate" on a raw, personal emotional level then Trump.

Again I'm not AS worried about DeSantis for reasons I outlined before, he's much more a case of Florida's weird demographics being a tough nut to crack for Democrats and I don't think (hope) that would translate to national level success that easily, but I'm still a little worried. He COULD be that "Trump but not so cartoonish about it" problem.
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Old 14th November 2022, 08:56 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Ben Garrison is a bell end.
I played right into that one, didn't I?
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Old 14th November 2022, 09:29 AM   #40
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●JoeMorgue! You're starting to scare me! You say DeSnazi has some little charisma? Jesus, if the professionals could sell a wierd creep like Nixon, with his rancid-dishrag personality, they could turn DeSmutty into a new Huey Long. "Every WHITE man a king! Muh!"

But let's hope that Peak Fascism has passed. We just saw what happens when the rightie tighties overreach themselves -- and they always do, because their doctrine of Perpetual Struggle forces them to.
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