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Tags 2020 elections , Bernie Sanders , presidential candidates

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Old 30th March 2019, 05:22 AM   #481
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Are we just going to pretend that what happens on the internet is not real?
Everything "happens" on the internet. That is, every nutty thing one might imagine is posted by some random, anonymous bozo or another.

The problem arises when people read stupid things on the internet written by random bozos and attempt to extrapolate broader meaning.

Quote:
I'm old, but I'm not dumb.
Being dumb isn't a prerequisite to being a sucker who is eager to confirm biases.
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Old 2nd April 2019, 06:48 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Everything "happens" on the internet. That is, every nutty thing one might imagine is posted by some random, anonymous bozo or another.

The problem arises when people read stupid things on the internet written by random bozos and attempt to extrapolate broader meaning.

Being dumb isn't a prerequisite to being a sucker who is eager to confirm biases.
You've completely missed the point.

And no, don't ask me to explain it, because I'm pretty sure you're not going to get it anyway.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 06:23 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You've completely missed the point.

And no, don't ask me to explain it, because I'm pretty sure you're not going to get it anyway.
Argumentum ad neenerum. Highly unimpressive.

Consider the position you're staking out here. An anonymous person (Anon1) purportedly posted something on the internet, according to another anonymous person on the internet (Anon2) and you consider it meaningful!? Even though you don't actually know what was purportedly posted.

You're hanging your hat on a vague anecdote twice removed.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 07:16 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
And no, don't ask me to explain it, because I'm pretty sure you're not going to get it anyway.
I've never understood that kind of behaviour. "Yes, I've got proof for my claim, but I'm not going to show it to you because you're close-minded." That's a self-fulfilling prophecy, which I suspect is the entire point. Presenting said evidence or argument or explanation, assuming it exists, is far riskier.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 08:57 PM   #485
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http://time.com/5563406/bernie-sande...n-fundraising/

Let's see how far this man can go!
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Old 5th April 2019, 04:18 PM   #486
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Sanders was recently on The Daily Show taking some audience questions.

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I AGREE
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Old 5th April 2019, 04:44 PM   #487
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I'm no fan of Sanders and did not support him during the primaries, but if he's the Dem candidate, I'll vote for him in a heartbeat.
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Old 5th April 2019, 05:39 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Sanders was recently on The Daily Show taking some audience questions.

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I AGREE
A lot of predictable questions and answers in the first half. Is there anything in the second half I should listen to that isn't the usual platitudes and expected answers?
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:54 PM   #489
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Bernie Sanders' second trip to Iowa.

From my limited experiences in Council Bluffs and Sioux City, among other small towns in Iowa it sure as hell felt like deep conservative country!

Good luck.

https://www.kwqc.com/content/news/Pr...508153891.html

Quote:
Presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders is returning to Iowa this weekend and his first stop will be in Davenport. This is one of six stops he will be making this weekend with the rally in Davenport set to be the biggest of all.

We are told his message will be very Iowa specific. This is not a general message that would make sense anywhere- he is here to talk to local Iowans. Some of the topics we can expect to hear about are Medicare and Medicaid, but most specifically agribusiness.
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:02 AM   #490
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Bernie Sanders to speak at Fox News town hall.

Quote:
"In most respects, I think it is," Sanders told HuffPost on Saturday when asked if Fox News broadcasts were propaganda for President Trump.

Sanders added, however, that there are broadcasters on the network who are "serious" and "fair," noting the town hall he did with host Bret Baier during the 2016 presidential cycle.

"I think they have some people who you can describe as real journalists," he said. "Obviously, most of the station is right-wing propaganda."

Sanders cautioned against completely dismissing the network, considering the millions of viewers that tune in to its programs each day.
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Old 8th October 2019, 07:19 PM   #491
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Sanders says he'll slow down pace on campaign trail after heart attack

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Sanders spoke to reporters outside his home in Burlington, Vt., after going to see his cardiologist, saying he plans to do fewer events in the near future.

"I certainly intend to be actively campaigning," he said. "I think we can change the nature of the campaign a bit, make sure that I have the strength to do what I have to do."
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...r-heart-attack
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:33 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I know that it's hard to give up on a dream, but he needs to put his health and family first and pull out. He's coming 3rd in the polls, often not a lot ahead of Harris. It's not worth killing himself over.
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:42 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I know that it's hard to give up on a dream, but he needs to put his health and family first and pull out. He's coming 3rd in the polls, often not a lot ahead of Harris. It's not worth killing himself over.
I agree. I kind of like Bernie, but I'd rather see him continue as a senator.
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:50 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I know that it's hard to give up on a dream, but he needs to put his health and family first and pull out. He's coming 3rd in the polls, often not a lot ahead of Harris. It's not worth killing himself over.
I'd like him to stay in through every last debate, at least.
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:53 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd like him to stay in through every last debate, at least.
I can understand that and am a little torn on it. I think that there are a lot of good progressive voices this time, and that has split the support he had, which has dropped him into the pack. I don't see him catching Warren and Biden, and so would rather see him still working in the Senate than being in a coffin.
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:59 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I can understand that and am a little torn on it. I think that there are a lot of good progressive voices this time, and that has split the support he had, which has dropped him into the pack. I don't see him catching Warren and Biden, and so would rather see him still working in the Senate than being in a coffin.
I definitely don't want him to die!

I just think he'll be fine health-wise just going at a slower pace for a while longer.

He's still an invaluable voice on universal health care. It's really just him and Liz on that. (To be fair, I haven't evaluated Castro's health care plan, but it's unlikely I'd like it as an opening "offer" against the conservative factions.)
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:28 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd like him to stay in through every last debate, at least.
Why?

The debates are already overcrowded. Having people in the debates that won't win just makes it harder for other candidates to get their message out, as well as increasing the chance of politically damaging attacks against the eventual winner.

Plus there are other candidates occupying similar space on the political spectrum so its not like the far left will be ignored.

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Old 9th October 2019, 01:27 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Why?

The debates are already overcrowded. Having people in the debates that won't win just makes it harder for other candidates to get their message out, as well as increasing the chance of politically damaging attacks against the eventual winner.

Plus there are other candidates occupying similar space on the political spectrum so its not like the far left will be ignored.

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So you think it should just be Warren and Biden in the debates now?

Sanders is still waaaay above everyone but them. See: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html

And no, nobody else really occupies the same ideological space that Bernie "every billionaire is a policy failure" Sanders does. LOL
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Old 9th October 2019, 04:51 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So you think it should just be Warren and Biden in the debates now?

Sanders is still waaaay above everyone but them. See: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html

And no, nobody else really occupies the same ideological space that Bernie "every billionaire is a policy failure" Sanders does. LOL
Never mind the polling numbers. Regardless of where a candidate stands in the polls, if/when they have zero chance of being POTUS, that's when it's time to leave the stage. As of the heart attack, Bernie has zero chance. And most critically, his views are pretty well represented by Warren. Not exact but close enough.
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Old 9th October 2019, 04:53 AM   #500
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How selfish do you have to be to want Bernie to keep running even though it might kill him?








lol
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Old 9th October 2019, 05:13 AM   #501
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This is from the realm of vibes I pickup from the candidates. I don't have evidence. And to be clear, this has nothing to do with policy.

Bernie is the only Dem who I trust not to flinch in the face of Trump's antics. The flinch is a reflection of inner insecurity, when Trump touches a sore spot. One must be supremely confident to be a non-flincher.

For instance, being exposed as having lied can make a candidate flinch. Bernie impresses me as honest. I don't think he has lies on his resume. Another reason Bernie is a non-flincher is less admirable. He's a true believer -- an impenetrable ideologue.

Add unrelated thought: Bernie almost single-handed has caused the public option to become a mainstream concept, by having moved the whole conversation to the left. I appreciate that a lot.
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Old 9th October 2019, 05:25 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This is from the realm of vibes I pickup from the candidates. I don't have evidence. And to be clear, this has nothing to do with policy.

Bernie is the only Dem who I trust not to flinch in the face of Trump's antics. The flinch is a reflection of inner insecurity, when Trump touches a sore spot. One must be supremely confident to be a non-flincher.

For instance, being exposed as having lied can make a candidate flinch. Bernie impresses me as honest. I don't think he has lies on his resume. Another reason Bernie is a non-flincher is less admirable. He's a true believer -- an impenetrable ideologue.

Add unrelated thought: Bernie almost single-handed has caused the public option to become a mainstream concept, by having moved the whole conversation to the left. I appreciate that a lot.
Agreed.

It's hard to imagine the progressive shift of the Democratic party of the last few years happening without Bernie's very fierce advocacy during the last primary. He demonstrated that there is a very real hunger for that type of politics and dragged the entire party, kicking and screaming, to the left on many issues.

Neo-lib types often seem insecure, as you point out, because their policies often sit on the ideological fence. The precariousness this position is obvious. Bernie has no such problem, his platform is consistent and easily explained by his well established ideology.
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:17 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Re: Sanders staying in the Democratic debates...
Quote:
Why?

The debates are already overcrowded. Having people in the debates that won't win just makes it harder for other candidates to get their message out, as well as increasing the chance of politically damaging attacks against the eventual winner.

Plus there are other candidates occupying similar space on the political spectrum so its not like the far left will be ignored.
So you think it should just be Warren and Biden in the debates now?
Not necessarily. But I do think smaller debates would be more useful to the electorate since it will allow each candidate more time to promote their policies.

Now, I do recognize that there needs to be a balance, a need to be fair to lower ranked candidates vs. the need for more focused debates. Automatically reducing the field to the top 2 contenders seems to be going too far.
Quote:
Sanders is still waaaay above everyone but them. See: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...tion-6730.html
Yes he seems to be firmly entrenched in 3rd place.

I was under the impression from posts here that people thought Sanders should eventually drop out for the good of his health. If you think he should stay in and fight till the end, that's a different issue.

My question is "why stay i the debates" only applies in the situation where you might think he should eventually drop out but only after the debates have concluded.
Quote:
And no, nobody else really occupies the same ideological space that Bernie "every billionaire is a policy failure" Sanders does. LOL
People may not have exactly the same policies as Sanders, but there are a lot of similarities with other Candidates For example, with Warren: Both want free college, increased taxes on the wealthy, and more corporate regulations. And Warren did co-sponsor Sander's health care bill (even if she's less inclined to support his "eliminate private insurance" policy).
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Old 9th October 2019, 09:58 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nonsense!
The only thing standing between Bernie and 2020 is a hostile DNC, a rigged primary!
Remember her emails!
Damn that toilet server!
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Old 9th October 2019, 10:02 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This happens every election. The internet gets itself worked into a frenzy over some outside the mainstream darkhorse candidate, they convince themselves he can win, make up all sorts of conspiracy theories about why he didn't, wash, rinse, repeat.

Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul, kinda of Ralph Nader, (arguably) Bat Buchanan, hell Ross Perot was almost like a weird, proto-version of it.

And the idea that Bernie Sanders lost the election for Clinton is laughable. He came in behind Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Evan McMullin, and Darrel Castle and as always everyone was running a distant second to perennial write in favorite "Did Note Vote" who has held every elected office in America since forever.
He was tanked by Clinton before the election, Clinton lost on her own baggage and russian mischief.
And Bengazi Toilet Servers
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:32 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Argumentum ad neenerum. Highly unimpressive.

Consider the position you're staking out here. An anonymous person (Anon1) purportedly posted something on the internet, according to another anonymous person on the internet (Anon2) and you consider it meaningful!? Even though you don't actually know what was purportedly posted.

You're hanging your hat on a vague anecdote twice removed.
Basic rule to remember about the Internet:
Any idiot or kook can post crap on the interenet.
And every idiot or kook does.
The late Harlan Ellison said the Internet is not the information superhighway but the biggest unsupervised Insane Asylum in the history of mankind.
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:37 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Why?

The debates are already overcrowded. Having people in the debates that won't win just makes it harder for other candidates to get their message out, as well as increasing the chance of politically damaging attacks against the eventual winner.

Plus there are other candidates occupying similar space on the political spectrum so its not like the far left will be ignored.

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These debates are a joke, IMHO.
No real exchange of ideas, just talking points.
Hell, even just five is probably too much for a reasonable debate,as the Candian debate showed....
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:41 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Never mind the polling numbers. Regardless of where a candidate stands in the polls, if/when they have zero chance of being POTUS, that's when it's time to leave the stage. As of the heart attack, Bernie has zero chance. And most critically, his views are pretty well represented by Warren. Not exact but close enough.
I actuallh think the differences between Warren and Sanders are more of style then substance.
And IMHO, this is to Warren's advantage. Sanders, even without the Health issue (which I note the Bernie Bros are trying to hand wave away) has an image problem when it comes to the General election:he just comes off as the classic aging Sixties radical who can never quite leave the Sixties behing. Yes, this appeals to the more militant progressive wing of the party, but is a turn off to a lot of moderates.
Warren has a more mainstream approach, I think she can sell herself to the moderates and centrists the Dems will need to win..they can't do it on the base alonte...not sure Bernie could ever do that.
And, yes, style is important in elections.
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Old 9th October 2019, 12:46 PM   #509
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Old 9th October 2019, 01:21 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not necessarily. But I do think smaller debates would be more useful to the electorate since it will allow each candidate more time to promote their policies.

Now, I do recognize that there needs to be a balance, a need to be fair to lower ranked candidates vs. the need for more focused debates. Automatically reducing the field to the top 2 contenders seems to be going too far.

Yes he seems to be firmly entrenched in 3rd place.

I was under the impression from posts here that people thought Sanders should eventually drop out for the good of his health. If you think he should stay in and fight till the end, that's a different issue.

My question is "why stay i the debates" only applies in the situation where you might think he should eventually drop out but only after the debates have concluded.

People may not have exactly the same policies as Sanders, but there are a lot of similarities with other Candidates For example, with Warren: Both want free college, increased taxes on the wealthy, and more corporate regulations. And Warren did co-sponsor Sander's health care bill (even if she's less inclined to support his "eliminate private insurance" policy).
I think he should eventually drop out to endorse Warren, not for the good of his health.

I think his health is basically fine, now that he's had the procedure.

Sanders and Warren do share policies more or less, but the underlying ideology is significantly different. They have different primary reasonings behind the policies.

Liz really does see debt peonage and monopolistic economic rent-seeking as an overall economic drag on the nation, whereas for Bernie, it's 100% a matter of morality, right and wrong, and justice.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:08 PM   #511
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Bernie Sanders did say he'd pick a younger VP.

A fair cushion for concerns about his age and health.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:13 PM   #512
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Bernie Sanders did say he'd pick a younger VP.

A fair cushion for concerns about his age and health.
It might be difficult for him to find an older one....
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:57 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It might be difficult for him to find an older one....
There's always Mike Gravel.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:06 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think he should eventually drop out to endorse Warren, not for the good of his health.

I think his health is basically fine, now that he's had the procedure.

Sanders and Warren do share policies more or less, but the underlying ideology is significantly different. They have different primary reasonings behind the policies.

Liz really does see debt peonage and monopolistic economic rent-seeking as an overall economic drag on the nation, whereas for Bernie, it's 100% a matter of morality, right and wrong, and justice.
I fear if Warren gets the nomination, the Jacobin and CounterPunch watchers will abandon the election. I could be stuck in the social media bubble but I hope they are relatively few in number!
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:14 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I fear if Warren gets the nomination, the Jacobin and CounterPunch watchers will abandon the election. I could be stuck in the social media bubble but I hope they are relatively few in number!
The uber extreme hardliners really aren't that many in number. Waaay more leftwingers couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton, and over 80% of Bernie's 2016 voters voted for Clinton.

Especially if Bernie drops out early enough to give Liz a convincing and really enthusiastic endorsement. Which I'm pretty sure he will.
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Old 12th October 2019, 08:26 PM   #516
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For anybody thinking Warren should be good-enough substitute for Bernie to Bernie fans: Kyle Kulinski (Secular Talk on YouTube) collected some differences between them here.


She is not in favor of eliminating medical debt or all educational debt.

She was in favor of approving Ben Carson... then flipped under pressure.

She admitted that the DNC had rigged 2016 against Bernie... then flipped under pressure.

Speaking of 2016: she refused to officially endorse Bernie despite being in theory more like him than Hillary on policies, so that decision was some kind of machiavellian calculation, rather than a stance on policy principles. (Some say Hillary got her to do that by saying she'd appoint her to something if she won, but somebody more principled or less gullible & pressurable wouldn't have fallen for that.)

She's an obstacle to universal single-payer medical coverage. Yes, she now claims to be for it, most of the time, but that's just another of her flips under pressure. Her original spiel, from before detecting how hard the wind was blowing that way, and which still does accidentally sneak out in bits & pieces from time to time, was wafflier than Waffle House on a Sunday morning, full of blather about how all of the Democrats' proposals are essentially the same and how the ones that are based on and framed in Republican talking points are just as good as long as they now come from "Democrats"... trying to sound like she might be in favor of whatever anybody listening might want.

She keeps voting for the always-increasing military budgets, including the latest one that shoveled even more money at it than Trump had asked for.

She takes donations from military contractors while saying practically nothing about changing any part of the Bush-Obama-Trump military behavior. (KK says she's also done "favors" for them, but doesn't specify what those were, beyond throwing lots of tax money back at them and staying silent on their neverending foreign intrusions, as stated above.)

She said at first that she'd refuse big-donor money like that for the primary season but accept it in the general election. This is inherently hypocritical already (because if you accept the principle against it, which is that it's a corrupting influence and a corrupt system, then taking it sometimes is openly participating in the corruption sometimes), but there's more: she then got caught sneaking big-donor money into her primary campaign budget too.

When she had an interview in which the interviewer mentioned the progressive movement's challenge against corrupt DINOs like Joe Manchin, she felt compelled to give a "spirited defense" of Manchin. (KK used this as an example of her adopting the language of party unity and bipartisanship rather than treating opponents as opponents who need to be defeated for the good of the country & people, but didn't give more examples.)

Finally, although she does have policy proposals that address certain aspects of the class struggle, KK says she doesn't push the subject as often or as forcefully or in as much of the right kind of elitists-vs-the-rest-of-us framing like Bernie does, so, no matter how good those proposals might be, she's not enough of an advocate for them or for the general principle driving them, helping to push the national conversation in the direction that would make such policies more likely to pass and their supporters more likely to get elected. (I can't really say I'm quite with him on this one; I'm sure one could find examples of her sounding weak & waffly or even evasive or contradictory to such ideas & framing on certain occasions, and I'm sure the opposite could be found too, but I can't say it goes one way or the other as a dominant trend of hers... other than by comparison to someone as all-out as Bernie is about it... but the comparison is still valid in a way... just mainly because Bernie is Bernie, rather than because Betty is Betty.)

Last edited by Delvo; 12th October 2019 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 12th October 2019, 10:45 PM   #517
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Seriously? You're claiming the woman is only a second, only a substitute for the man? She doesn't really have any accomplishments of her own. We can only compare her to Sanders?

Warning, this will piss people off:
Go **** yourselves. What is wrong with people they can't just compare candidates and their platforms without this nonsense of how Warren measures up to King Bernie?
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Old 12th October 2019, 10:50 PM   #518
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Bernie way or the highway?

Looks like someone is trying to get Trump reelected.
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Old 13th October 2019, 05:09 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
<snip for brevity>
Thanks for this dour reminder of how highly irrational and rigid in their thinking that lefties can be. Sanders supporters in particular. Not that I needed it.
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Old 13th October 2019, 05:44 AM   #520
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I'm going to put the last quote at the beginning, and modify it a bit to make it a more level-headed, less how-dare-you-think-differently-from-me version of itself:
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What is wrong with people they can't just compare candidates and their platforms without this nonsense of how Warren measures up to King Bernie?
Take a moment to put yourself in the position of someone who would have written something like that, which just looks at the facts at hand, without looking for something to fling at somebody or drool on. Does it really, actually fit together & make sense to you? I don't see how it possibly can.

You saw somebody making a comparison between candidates & their platforms, and responded to that by lamenting the fact that people don't compare candidates & platforms without (this nonsense of) comparing the candidates & platforms.

Can you explain how what you're responding to did not already meet the request you made in the first not-scratched-through part in the quote box? Can you explain how the two separate not-scratched-through parts of the quote can possibly, even hypothetically, be compatible with each other at all? Or will we just get another round of "HE NOT LIKE WHO GINGER LIKE! GGHHRAAAWRR GINGER SMAAASH (keyboard)!!!!!!!"

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're claiming the woman is only a second, only a substitute for the man?
From the point-of-view of fans of his, as discussed in a thread about him, yes. That's how preferences work: alternatives to the preferred choice are... not the preferred choice. I'm saving money up for a Ford Ranger. I suppose I could get a Chevrolet Colorado instead, but I'd rather get a Ranger.

I'm quite certain that you've known this all along, because everybody does and it wouldn't be possible for a functioning human not to. Why pretend to only just now be discovering this? Could it have anything to do with having a preference of your own, which itself would be proof that you're already aware that preferences are prefences? (And not being particularly emotionally well-equipped to handle people having different preferences from yours)

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
She doesn't really have any accomplishments of her own.
Now would be a good time to point out the quote in which that is claimed. Failure to do so will equal admission that you made it up from nothing but your own paranoid imagination. (And while you're at it, now would also be a good time to back up the accusation of sexism that you built in to the first quote, and failure to do so will also equal admission of the equivalent behavior on that subject, too.)

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We can only compare her to Sanders?
Again, as you surely already know and there's no sense in pretending not to, that's just how political choices work, and also how "spectrums/spectra" work: politicians get compared with each other, and whoever/whatever is the farthest in one direction or another on a spectrum becomes a measuring point for others that/who aren't as far in that direction to be compared with. Whichever compact/midiszed pickup truck has the most towing capacity in that class, the rest all have less towing capacity than that.

Last edited by Delvo; 13th October 2019 at 05:49 AM.
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