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Tags neil degrasse tyson , rape accusations , sexual misconduct charges

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Old 27th October 2017, 09:38 AM   #121
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
There are numerous sexual assault/rape threads going on right now. Only one has gone down this path.
ISTR that in all the others the complainant actually claims to remember having been raped, rather than appearing to have inferred it from circumstantial evidence.

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Old 27th October 2017, 09:39 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't know about this case, but there is nothing wrong, in principle, with claiming to have been raped with no memory of the event. Other evidence, if it existed could be forensic or photographic or third person witnesses or even confessions.
True, but not when the gap itself is the core evidence of the claim.

I have no idea where I was on the 12th of February 1993, but that doesn't mean I can claim to have been shipped off to a satanic cult and to have come back as Belz...
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:39 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Because with anything that has ever been witnessed in human history, we could debate its accuracy based on the fallibility of the memories of those who claimed to have witnessed the event.
Yes, we could and, especially if they seem incredible and/or suspicious , we should!
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:41 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
True, but not when the gap itself is the core evidence of the claim.

I have no idea where I was on the 12th of February 1993, but that doesn't mean I can claim to have been shipped off to a satanic cult and to have come back as Belz...
Sure. This case is almost like an alien abduction claim.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:42 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Quote:
I have no idea where I was on the 12th of February 1993, but that doesn't mean I can claim to have been shipped off to a satanic cult and to have come back as Belz...
Sure. This case is almost like an alien abduction claim.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:45 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
the woman accusing Tyson of raping her clearly states in the text of her accusation that she has no memory of being raped.
However, she does claim to have a memory of being drugged.

Quote:
What should be being called into question is, in the absence of any memory of rape, what is the actual basis of her accusation? I'm struggling to find one, other than that she suffered a period of memory loss and couldn't come up with any other explanation for it.
The basis of her accusation seems to be her alleged memory of being drugged. And, of course, there are also her allegations against NDGT that as a teacher he also used to pay for blow jobs with grades.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th October 2017 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:47 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I have no idea where I was on the 12th of February 1993,
Do I really have to remind you again?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:59 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do I really have to remind you again?!
Iä! Iä!
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:02 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
However, she does claim to have a memory of being drugged...
Not really, she remembers details of a cup she was given with a drink of water.
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:04 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There is relevance in this case. The accusation occurred 30 years after the fact. Even the laps in memory is questionable, unless she's been telling this story to friends for the last 30 years...
I didn't read it myself but back in the thread I'm sure someone* said she claimed she reported it to the police at the time.

*Memory. <shrug>
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:07 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And, of course, there are also her allegations against NDGT that as a teacher he also used to pay for blow jobs with grades.
This is the one thing in her claim which could actually be corroborated, but hasn't been. If people from NDGT's classes come forward with confirming accounts of this detail, I would be perfectly happy to give her the benefit of the doubt on the rest of her story.

It wouldn't necessarily mean it was true, but it would certainly indicate that NDGT was a skeevy enough character to make it likely.
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:19 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
You are engaging in narrow-minded dismissiveness to accuse others of narrow-minded dismissiveness. There are actual substantive discussions about the topic occurring in this thread. Feel free to join in.
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:21 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Not really, she remembers details of a cup she was given with a drink of water.
No, she asked for water and was handed (and accepted) a "liquid."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:22 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
If people from NDGT's classes come forward with confirming accounts of this detail, I would be perfectly happy to give her the benefit of the doubt on the rest of her story.
That might only become possible if her claim appears in the mass media. Do all of his students already know about what she is saying?
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:28 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
It wouldn't necessarily mean it was true, but it would certainly indicate that NDGT was a skeevy enough character to make it likely.
Skeevy, definitely, but not quite Cosby skeevy, in my opinion. I would still distinguish between the two allegations.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:29 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That might only become possible if her claim appears in the mass media. Do all of his students already know about what she is saying?
I am disappointed if no student of his is a member of the IS!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:36 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Old phone bills, for instance? Old notebooks? Other old papers?
Sure. Basically what I'm asking is, has the claimant verified the claim against such sources of truth?

But this raises another interesting possibility: Believing you remember the number accurately, then seeing the actual number in an old document, and then believing you remembered the actual number all along. Or even reviewing old documents several times over the years, so that though you believe you've remembered the number accurately for 30 years, in fact you've refreshed your memory several times along the way.

Quote:
Why are you so hard to convince that things like old phone numbers, even other people's that you would call frequently, won't stick in your memory till your dying day?
"So hard to convince"? I'm not actually that fussed about it. I'm curious, is all. I know that memory is a lot more fragile and flexible than we think it is, and that our perception of the accuracy of our memories is not itself always accurate. So when someone says with confidence that they definitely remember old phone numbers, etc., I wonder where their confidence comes from. You don't have to convince me of anything. Just share some more of the details of your experience of memory, since you're on the topic anyway.

And no, my memory doesn't work that way. I don't remember old phone numbers or passwords or street addresses or things like that.

Quote:
Do you forget your passwords all the time? Does your memory of your passwords change from day to day?
I don't forget stuff I'm currently using on a regular basis, no. But it does fade after only a few years of disuse, sure. Why are you so hard to convince that memory works this way for a lot of people?
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:41 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, she asked for water and was handed (and accepted) a "liquid."
Well, that's how she remembers it, anyway.
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:00 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, that's how she remembers it, anyway.
Claims that she remembers it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:11 AM   #140
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I'm pretty sure I'd know if I'd been raped/had sex. There would definitely be telltale signs. Speaking as a woman.
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:19 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure. Basically what I'm asking is, has the claimant verified the claim against such sources of truth?
Which claimant now? Darat?

Quote:
But this raises another interesting possibility: Believing you remember the number accurately, then seeing the actual number in an old document, and then believing you remembered the actual number all along. Or even reviewing old documents several times over the years, so that though you believe you've remembered the number accurately for 30 years, in fact you've refreshed your memory several times along the way.
There appear to be certain factual, simple things that you refresh, and don't distort, when you recall them: old phone number, passwords, Bible verses, songs, melodies: Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur … Unlike more complicated stuff like events, conversations, who were invited for a particular dinner and what were they wearing …
There are phone numbers from 50 years ago (also 12 digits) that I recall with so much certainty that I don't even feel the need for confirmation.

Quote:
"So hard to convince"? I'm not actually that fussed about it. I'm curious, is all. I know that memory is a lot more fragile and flexible than we think it is, and that our perception of the accuracy of our memories is not itself always accurate. So when someone says with confidence that they definitely remember old phone numbers, etc., I wonder where their confidence comes from. You don't have to convince me of anything. Just share some more of the details of your experience of memory, since you're on the topic anyway.
In the case of phone numbers, the difficulty that we're having here may be age related: Some of us, the old ones, used to know a lot of them. Most of the time, we didn't even have to try to remember them: We had to dial them every time, and we ended up remembering them. But consider other things: the ones that you are asked about when choosing a new password. Long gone pets' names, kindergarden teacher name, license plates, whatever.

Quote:
And no, my memory doesn't work that way. I don't remember old phone numbers or passwords or street addresses or things like that.
Probably because we no longer have to. And young people's brains are being wired differently nowadays. And I don't belong to the group of old people who think that that's a shame!

Quote:
I don't forget stuff I'm currently using on a regular basis, no. But it does fade after only a few years of disuse, sure.
Me too … nowadays. But some very old stuff is just stuck there.

Quote:
Why are you so hard to convince that memory works this way for a lot of people?
I'm not!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:21 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
I'm pretty sure I'd know if I'd been raped/had sex. There would definitely be telltale signs. Speaking as a woman.
Probably not if you were drugged at the time, he was wearing a condom, and you had already had sex earlier that same night. Speaking as a man.



(I still don't think that Tyson did it!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th October 2017 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Probably not if you were drugged at the time, he was wearing a condom, and you had already had sex earlier that same night. Speaking as a man.
(I still don't Tyson did it!)
She makes no mention of having sex prior to seeing NGT nor offer many details on how she knows she was raped. Which is perfectly understandable if she had been raped but it also makes it seem like a bit of a non sequitur. X happened, then Y happened so Z. Z is plausible but its not clear how she knew. Which again, perfectly understandable why she wouldn't want to share those details.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:12 PM   #144
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Even using a condom will leave a trace the next morning.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:23 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
She makes no mention of having sex prior to seeing NGT nor offer many details on how she knows she was raped. Which is perfectly understandable if she had been raped but it also makes it seem like a bit of a non sequitur. X happened, then Y happened so Z. Z is plausible but its not clear how she knew. Which again, perfectly understandable why she wouldn't want to share those details.
I think that the whole thing is a delusion, but if we take it for granted that she was actually drugged, it would be more than plausible that she was drugged for a reason, i.e. drug rape.
In the case of Cosby's alleged drug-rape victims, I remember them as being much more specific and not as vague in their descriptions of what happened as in this case. That doesn't mean that they were truthful, and this woman isn't, but on the whole, I find this story much harder to believe.

However, I also have to admit that I might be prejudiced in both cases:
I always found the character Dr. Huxtable on The Cosby Show too smug, too condescending, and I hated the way that the plot almost almost proved him right and the children wrong. And in a very overbearing way. And even though I'm aware that The Cosby Show was fiction, that Cosby was never an M.D., was never an obstetrician, was never the father of the children on that show, it still influences the way that I see the actor/writer Bill Cosby.
Now the series Cosmos isn't fiction, of course, neither are the NDGT lectures that I've seen on Youtube or the articles I've read, but he comes across as an extremely nice guy, and I would absolute hate the idea of having him turn out to be a drug rapist or somebody who blackmailed college students into performing oral sex on him.
Still, I'm trying not to let that influence the way I assess the case, but I'm not sure that it won't.
[self-irony] And even if he were a drug rapist, I'm sure that he would be a very gentle one, which might account for him leaving no bruises. [/self-irony]
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th October 2017 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:25 PM   #146
dann
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Even using a condom will leave a trace the next morning.
Which is why I added:
Quote:
… already had sex earlier that same night
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:43 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I didn't read it myself but back in the thread I'm sure someone* said she claimed she reported it to the police at the time.

*Memory. <shrug>
That is what someone said, but in the following quote from the woman's blog it sounds like she may have claimed to have only recently filed a police report.

Quote:
1. FILE THE POLICE REPORT. If you have #beenrapedneverreported, NOW IS THE TIME! Even after 30 years, filing that police report was very empowering and liberating. I had been so afraid of what would happen if anyone found out. I was so relieved when I went to the authorities and they listened and supported me a great deal.
https://tchiya.wordpress.com/tag/rape/

(Due to some browser problems, I got the quote from Google's cached version of the web page - on the off chance that it's not still there.)

Last edited by Shepherd; 27th October 2017 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 04:14 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
I'm pretty sure I'd know if I'd been raped/had sex. There would definitely be telltale signs. Speaking as a woman.
OK, I'm going to be blunt here (becasue I truthfully want a women's perspective on this).

One night....you were voluntarily indulging in some drug taking. During that time, you aren't sure, but you may also have been intentionally drugged by someone.

The next morning, when you wake up, you realise that you've had sexual intercourse sometime the night before. Would you know whether the sex had been consensual, or you had been raped?

NOTE: I don't need any details if you'd rather not, just a confirmation that you would be able to tell one way or the other.
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Old 27th October 2017, 04:38 PM   #149
dann
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
She makes no mention of ...
KatieG seems to be generalizing when she writes:
Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
I'm pretty sure I'd know if I'd been raped/had sex. There would definitely be telltale signs. Speaking as a woman.
She doesn't seem to be talking specifically about the allegations against Tyson.
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Old 27th October 2017, 04:50 PM   #150
KatieG
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OK, I'm going to be blunt here (becasue I truthfully want a women's perspective on this).

One night....you were voluntarily indulging in some drug taking. During that time, you aren't sure, but you may also have been intentionally drugged by someone.

The next morning, when you wake up, you realise that you've had sexual intercourse sometime the night before. Would you know whether the sex had been consensual, or you had been raped?

NOTE: I don't need any details if you'd rather not, just a confirmation that you would be able to tell one way or the other.
Nope, no way to be sure.
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Basically, if the GOP doesn't want to be called the white supremacy party, they should stop acting like they are.
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Old 27th October 2017, 04:51 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
KatieG seems to be generalizing when she writes:
She doesn't seem to be talking specifically about the allegations against Tyson.
Thank you for making that clearer than I obviously failed to do.
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Old 27th October 2017, 05:11 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Which claimant now? Darat?
Insert memory joke here.

Quote:
There appear to be certain factual, simple things that you refresh, and don't distort, when you recall them: old phone number, passwords, Bible verses, songs, melodies: Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur … Unlike more complicated stuff like events, conversations, who were invited for a particular dinner and what were they wearing …
There are phone numbers from 50 years ago (also 12 digits) that I recall with so much certainty that I don't even feel the need for confirmation.
You get more and more confident in your claims about how memory works, to the point where you don't even need to confirm it anymore. This only increases my skepticism.

Quote:
In the case of phone numbers, the difficulty that we're having here may be age related: Some of us, the old ones, used to know a lot of them. Most of the time, we didn't even have to try to remember them: We had to dial them every time, and we ended up remembering them.
I am of that generation.

Quote:
But consider other things: the ones that you are asked about when choosing a new password. Long gone pets' names, kindergarden teacher name, license plates, whatever.
Some of those I remember. Others I don't.
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:08 PM   #153
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"Someone raped me 30 years ago!"

Just shut up.

snoringdog.gif
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:44 PM   #154
dann
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
[i](…)
You get more and more confident in your claims about how memory works, to the point where you don't even need to confirm it anymore. This only increases my skepticism.
It shouldn't! Because:
Quote:
Some of those I remember. Others I don't.
The ones that you don't remember, obviously, aren't the ones that you would use as backup in case you forget a password. The others are.

And let's look at a different case, the imaginary DisneyWorld scenario: There would probably be some things that you do remember, and other things that you don't. If a certain specific, memorable thing happened when you met Minnie Mouse, and the fact that it was when you were meeting Minnie and not Donald Duck or anybody else was important to the incident (Let's say she commented on your wearing clothes of the same color (I don't know if the people dressed as Disney characters are even able or allowed to talk; I've never been to DisneyWorld), then you would probably never forget that Minnie was the one (or one of those) that you met. You would probably also never forget what color it was. Nobody would be able to persuade you to believe that it was Bugs Bunny - even if you didn't know that Bugs doesn't belong in that setting.

The rest of them … well, they were just people dressing up as one Disney character or another. It would be fairly easy to make you believe that one of those were Bugs (if …) because you didn't have a focus on them, they weren't really important as part of any memory or story.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:47 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Part of what we're discussing is that it's possible to recall things with utmost clarity of detail and complete confidence in the accuracy of the recollection, and yet still be wrong.

You haven't tested the number in 30 years. How can you be so sure you remember it correctly?
I got curious so I rang it, had a pleasant 15 minute chat with his dad, who I haven't spoken to in about 15 years. Number confirmed.
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:51 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Accuse someone people like of rape, and the whole concept of human memory gets called into question.
As it should be, we know human memory is nothing like - for example - persistent memory storage in a computer, we know it can be subject to inaccuracy and even total "fabrication". Doesn't mean allegations of rape shouldn't be looked into just means we have to be honest and fair about relying on human recollections.
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Old 28th October 2017, 03:50 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As it should be, we know human memory is nothing like - for example - persistent memory storage in a computer, we know it can be subject to inaccuracy and even total "fabrication". Doesn't mean allegations of rape shouldn't be looked into just means we have to be honest and fair about relying on human recollections.
This is especially so when the memories are decades old and the person remembering them is very hazy and vague about the details.

And I'm sorry but the fact that this person is an astrologer, claims to be some sort of "healer" (no formal qualifications) and "teacher (no formal qualifications) puts a serious dent in her overall credibility.

IMO, anyone who believes this woo-woo rubbish has a serious credibility problem right from the off.
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Old 28th October 2017, 04:35 AM   #158
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I know it doesn't prove anything, but have you guys read her blog? She keeps referencing all kind of supernatural ********, and appears to have cast NDT as the enemy of what she stands for because of his advocacy for science and reason. My unprofessional opinion based on nothing but a blog post is that she appears to be be unhinged, or at least experiencing some kind of mental difficulties.
Now whether that's because of 30 years of trauma from a rape she doesn't remember, or that her paranoid mind dreamt up a rape that never happened because a guy she used to like is opposed to her magical world view, I couldn't say.

But without a little bit of corroboration I'm finding it hard to take her claims very seriously.
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Old 28th October 2017, 05:11 AM   #159
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I tend to find it highly unlikely that all (or any) woos have become unhinged after being raped by skeptics - with or without the use of drugs.
I have had the extremely unpleasant experience of being harassed by a group of woos who made up a false profile in my name, including my address and photo, where 'I' was asking teenagers of both sexes to meet me at a café right next door.
One of the woo bullies was the business astrologer Karen Boesen. It happened in 2005 after she had made a fool of herself at the JREF forum!

PS
The same woman also enjoyed spreading fake news about James Randi: the Eldon Byrd case!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 28th October 2017 at 05:51 AM.
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Old 28th October 2017, 05:34 AM   #160
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Lying ******** will be lying ********!!. It is who and what they aspire to!!!
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