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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 28th June 2019, 04:59 AM   #361
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
"European Court of Human Rights Sides With Amanda Knox—to a Point"
by Barbie

In other words, I've been wrong about this case for over a decade by I can't admit it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/europe...int?ref=scroll
If this is the best that a long-time campaigner against Knox can do, then the ECHR really was a huge vindication for Knox.
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:22 AM   #362
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What has bypassed you is that I was referring to the article by KrissyG on TJMK which stated (and which I previously quoted):



So perhaps you should have a word with KrissyG so you can get your stories straight.

Guede was a known liar who claimed to be American at times to girls and, according to Krissy G, claimed to be S.African to Meredith. Why do you find it impossible that he told the Italian boys or even Amanda that he was S.African? Guede says when he met up with the boys, Meredith and Amanda the night they went to the cottage, Amanda mentioned she was from Seattle. It would have been quite possible that Guede responded "I'm from S. Africa." However, Stefano Bonassi also told police that Guede was S. African according to Follain:


Follain, John. A Death in Italy: The Definitive Account of the Amanda Knox Case . St. Martin's Press. Kindle Edition.





"A good friend"? Not according to Silenzi's testimony:


Stop making up things.



Far easier? You mean the balcony that, as of last month when I was there, still had what looks like the very same heavy wooden door without bars? Every single window had bars on it including Filomena's window but that 'easier' entry still had no bars.



LOL! If that were her Machiavellian plan then why did she already list Patrick separately from the 'S. African' when asked by the police to name men Meredith had known?


Follain, John. A Death in Italy: The Definitive Account of the Amanda Knox Case .

See what happens when you just make up crap? The facts tend to get in the way.
Stop talking rubbish. As far as the 'boys downstairs' were concerned Rudi was an Italian. Had been there since age 5, grew up in an Italian family, was Italian educated. From his last name it is easy to discover he is Ivorian. Obviously he is African but Africa is a big continent so assuming he would be a 'South African' is unlikely as most black Africans in Europe are Kenyans, Nigerians, Ghanaians and Somalis.

Guede would have zero reason to tell the 'boys downstairs' he was Sotuh African. He supported South Africa during the S. Africa v England Rugby Final. It doesn't make him South African. I dare say Mez assumed he was from his cheering South Africa during the game they were both watching at the bar or maybe he did claim the nationality.

It proves Knox did know 'the South African guy' who played basketball in the court yard and that he was Guede, so she lied when he claimed to police she didn't know him. She got the South African information from Mez and knew perfectly well who Guede was.
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:33 AM   #363
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
If this is the best that a long-time campaigner against Knox can do, then the ECHR really was a huge vindication for Knox.
Barbie's last statement in the article (written 24 Jan 2019) is most humorous:

"Because the court’s {ECHR} decision is non-binding, it is possible that she will never see any of the suggested payment."

Apparently, she has no concept of the Council of Europe treaty and its obligations.

Actually, Italy is really good on paying, eventually, for ECHR judgments against it. The really long delays are more in correcting its laws to conform to the requirements of the Convention and ECHR case-law. It still has not enacted a law against torture, for example, despite several judgments against it stemming from the Genoa cases.

"Inhuman and degrading treatment by police forces against demonstrators during G8 summit; inadequate criminal legislation to prevent and punish torture and ill-treatment. Status of supervision: Enhanced Supervision"

Source: https://rm.coe.int/1680709750
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:37 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It proves Knox did know 'the South African guy' who played basketball in the court yard and that he was Guede, so she lied when he claimed to police she didn't know him. She got the South African information from Mez and knew perfectly well who Guede was.
Please stop using the familiar name for the victim.
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Old 28th June 2019, 09:45 AM   #365
Numbers
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Today, the ECHR registry officials in charge of HUDOC changed the wording on the title page of the Knox v. Italy judgment to "Definitif" (final, definitive).

AFFAIRE KNOX c. ITALIE
(Requête no 76577/13)
ARRÊT
STRASBOURG
24 janvier 2019
DÉFINITIF
24/06/2019
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Old 28th June 2019, 09:54 AM   #366
AnimalFriendly
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop talking rubbish.
You telling that to, well, anyone is like Jupiter telling Mercury to stop having so many moons.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

It proves Knox did know 'the South African guy' who played basketball in the court yard and that he was Guede, so she lied when he claimed to police she didn't know him. She got the South African information from Mez and knew perfectly well who Guede was.
"It" doesn't prove anything of the sort. The only thing the above proves, once again, is your profound tastelessness in referring to a murder victim you never knew by anything other than her given name. Well, ok, it does prove one other thing....your denseness in not comprehending the obvious difference between knowing someone personally and knowing what that someone's name is. Knowing someone personally generally involves more than meeting that someone twice in passing.
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Old 28th June 2019, 09:57 AM   #367
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop talking rubbish. As far as the 'boys downstairs' were concerned Rudi was an Italian. _ Had been there since age 5, grew up in an Italian family, was Italian educated. _ From his last name it is easy to discover he is Ivorian. Obviously he is African but Africa is a big continent so assuming he would be a 'South African' is unlikely as most black Africans in Europe are Kenyans, Nigerians, Ghanaians and Somalis.

Guede would have zero reason to tell the 'boys downstairs' he was Sotuh African. He supported South Africa during the S. Africa v England Rugby Final. It doesn't make him South African. I dare say Mez assumed he was from his cheering South Africa during the game they were both watching at the bar or maybe he did claim the nationality.

It proves Knox did know 'the South African guy' who played basketball in the court yard and that he was Guede, so she lied when he claimed to police she didn't know him. She got the South African information from Mez and knew perfectly well who Guede was.
Highlight #1: Apparently you didn't read the passage from Follain that Stacy provided, which read; "However, Stefano Bonassi also told police that Guede was S. African according to Follain:".

Highlight #2: How would anyone know he lived in Italy since age 5 and how would that alter where he was born?

Highlight #3: What makes you assume someone would infer Ivorian heritage based on the last name of Guede? I certainly wouldn't and I suspect the vast majority wouldn't either.

Highlight #4: You know this how? (although I agree Guede would have zero reason to tell the 'boys downstairs' he was Sotuh African.)

Highlight #5: How does any of this prove Amanda knew Guede? I don't know my grocery store cashier, nor do I recall her name, although I've met her several times when checking out.

Highlight #6: You know this how?

You tell Stacy to stop talking rubbish yet your entire post is demonstrably rubbish.
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Old 28th June 2019, 10:22 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by AnimalFriendly View Post
"It" doesn't prove anything of the sort. The only thing the above proves, once again, is your profound tastelessness in referring to a murder victim you never knew by anything other than her given name. Well, ok, it does prove one other thing....your denseness in not comprehending the obvious difference between knowing someone personally and knowing what that someone's name is. Knowing someone personally generally involves more than meeting that someone twice in passing.
The series of continuations here on ISF/JREF got so elongated because of failures to comprehend differences like this.

All it would take, in days' gone by, would be for one innocentisi poster to say something like, "Look, neither Knox nor Sollecito even knew Rudy. Why would either of them (singly or together) ever in a million years conspire with him to murder someone?"

Instead of conceding the exceeding obviousness of that, the thread would be comment-bombed with guilter-nutter posts that boiled down to this:
- Knox had met Guede in the boys apartment on the first floor of the cottage.

- her contacts with him are not inconsistent (note the double negative) with the two of them knowing each other more than that.
That last one was then claimed to be a substitute for actual proof that Knox and Guede had actually conspired in the hours/days before the murder to do the deed. Readers here can make up their own minds about all this, or perhaps even do their own searches here if they're so inspired. But truly, it all boiled down to those two things, which, in turn, became part of what guilter-nutters claimed was this wide existence of "all the other evidence" which when taken together proved guilt......

...... when each and every claimed factoid was about as tenuous.

*********************

ETA - I should add that the Massei convicting court explained in its 2010 motivations report, that it was actually irrelevant whether or not Knox and/or Sollecito knew Guede before the attack on the victim. Remember, this had not been a premeditated attack anyway - acc. to the convicting court, Guede actually needed no motivation to attack a young woman, and had probably begun the attacke with both AK and RS even unawares.

What Massei said was that while "fooling around in Knox's room", they heard the commotion of the attack in the next room, the victim's room. They went to see what was going on, and instead of going to the aid of their friend, they made an inexplicable "choice for evil". Massei surmised that Knox had done that because as someone so young and so far from home, she was detached from the normal moral strictures of her upbringing. That was a convicting court trying to connect dots that weren't even there.

That was it. There was no pre-planning, so it is quite irrelevant whether or not Guede and either of the other two had communicated beforehand. As well, acc. to even the convicting court, the crime was so unpremeditated that Massei had to make up a reason out of whole cloth why Knox had been carrying that large kitchen knife from Raffaele's back to the cottage.

From this distance, does all that look even more ludicrous?
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Old 28th June 2019, 10:38 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop talking rubbish. As far as the 'boys downstairs' were concerned Rudi was an Italian. Had been there since age 5, grew up in an Italian family, was Italian educated. From his last name it is easy to discover he is Ivorian. Obviously he is African but Africa is a big continent so assuming he would be a 'South African' is unlikely as most black Africans in Europe are Kenyans, Nigerians, Ghanaians and Somalis.

Guede would have zero reason to tell the 'boys downstairs' he was Sotuh African. He supported South Africa during the S. Africa v England Rugby Final. It doesn't make him South African. I dare say Mez assumed he was from his cheering South Africa during the game they were both watching at the bar or maybe he did claim the nationality.

It proves Knox did know 'the South African guy' who played basketball in the court yard and that he was Guede, so she lied when he claimed to police she didn't know him. She got the South African information from Mez and knew perfectly well who Guede was.


"It proves" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Once again, your attempts at logical analysis and deductive reasoning are woefully inadequate.


Oh and to add one other thing: you base your "argument" about when someone would or would not employ the term "South African" from your own narrow experience as a British national living in England. See, there are an awful lot of South African nationals (particularly in the 18-25 age bracket) living and working in London and the South East. And yes, most of them are white - mostly descendents of Dutch and British settlers. The UK has a specific colonial history with South Africa, and shares several cultural ties with it as well (notably in the sports of rugby and cricket).

But most people outside the UK, for example Italy or the USA, have little or no experience of - or understanding of - South Africa or its ethnicity spread. And in addition, I wouldn't mind betting that many people from both of those countries (the USA especially) might incorrectly use the term "South Africa" to mean someone from the Southern part of the continent of Africa (as opposed to, say, the fairer-skinned Berber or Arabic-speaking populations of the Northern areas of Africa....).

So in fact I'd say it's entirely feasible (note my lack of certitude, in sharp contrast to your own unwarranted certitude in the other direction) that someone from the North West coast of the USA, who'd never before travelled outside the USA and who probably knew little or nothing about the country of South Africa (apart from, perhaps, Nelson Mandela - who was of course Black Xhosa), might refer to a dark-black-skinned person as being from "South Africa".

Yet another giant logic fail from you. Add it to the list.
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Old 28th June 2019, 11:07 AM   #370
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop talking rubbish. As far as the 'boys downstairs' were concerned Rudi was an Italian. Had been there since age 5, grew up in an Italian family, was Italian educated. From his last name it is easy to discover he is Ivorian. Obviously he is African but Africa is a big continent so assuming he would be a 'South African' is unlikely as most black Africans in Europe are Kenyans, Nigerians, Ghanaians and Somalis.

Are you seriously claiming that Italians would know the origin of African names? That the boys would know "Guede" is Ivorian and not S. African, Kenyan, Somali, etc? Oh, lord. You are.

You are ascribing knowledge to the boys downstairs that you cannot possibly know in a desperate effort to defend your ridiculous post. Once again, you claim to know what others thought even though it is in direct opposition to what Bonassi told the police.

Ten days before he killed Meredith, Guede told a Spanish journalist, Nacho Azparren, he was from S. Africa:
Quote:
"My name is Rudy, I was born in South Africa but I spent my childhood in Atlanta (United States). I'm in Italy working for Armani"
https://www.lne.es/sucesos/2011/10/0...a/1138272.html


Quote:
Guede would have zero reason to tell the 'boys downstairs' he was Sotuh African. He supported South Africa during the S. Africa v England Rugby Final. It doesn't make him South African. I dare say Mez assumed he was from his cheering South Africa during the game they were both watching at the bar or maybe he did claim the nationality.
Guede had zero reason to tell the Spanish journalist he was S. African or to tell Bonassi the same. Yet he did. If you read the link above, Guede also lied to his Spanish neighbors about several things, including that he worked for Armani, lived in the US and played basketball for the Univ. of Atlanta. Guede lied for a simple reason: he was an habitual liar as has been well established.


Quote:
It proves Knox did know 'the South African guy' who played basketball in the court yard and that he was Guede, so she lied when he claimed to police she didn't know him .
No, it does not prove any of the above. I've been served drinks by many waiters. Do you think they "know" me or my name? Do you think waiters who have served you "know" you and your name?

Quote:
She got the South African information from Mez and knew perfectly well who Guede was
Your claim is that, for some reason, Guede impressed Meredith so much that she told Amanda about him? After watching a rugby match at a bar with a lot of other people, Meredith chose to tell Amanda about meeting "this guy, named Rudy who is from S. Africa?" Funny she never mentioned him to any of her British girlfriends, innit? But if you believe that, then maybe you find it credible that Meredith really did invite Guede over for a round of canoodling.

Once again: are you conceding that Krissy G's claim that Guede referred to the knife as a 'stiletto' is false? Why would you have such difficulty admitting Krissy G is wrong? It's not like admitting you are wrong.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 28th June 2019 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 28th June 2019, 11:45 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Note the way this KrissyG character slides in "mixed blood" through the back door, using rhetorical sleight-of-hand.

Heavens, even Harry Rag eventually dropped "mixed blood" from his cut-and-paste comment-bombing of every Knox-related online story.

Once the smoke clears from this latest ECHR-related exoneration, KrissyG and Peter Q will simply cycle-back to all those long-since debunked factoids.

Too bad KrissyG doesn't post here, we'd make it to the 50th continuation for sure!!!!

It's because he got his ass kicked on multiple occasions on YouTube. He skulked in the murky backwaters of various comments sections looking for soft targets where he was discovered by Francisco and myself. Basically he capitulated after he could only offer the same old tired factoids about mixed blood that emerged at the start of the case. I'm certainly no big-hitter in an argument about the case, but it was surprising to see him so inept when quotes from the court proceedings were pasted in front of him. Basically, none of the motivations mention "mixed blood" only "mixed traces". I hunted him down at every opportunity on YouTube telling him I was going to kick his "**********g ass. Now I can't find his posts anywhere, nor can I find the posts of Quintus Beckmesser who at least had some sustainability compared to Rag.

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Old 28th June 2019, 12:18 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
I'm certainly no big-hitter in an argument about the case, but it was surprising to see him so inept when quotes from the court proceedings were pasted in front of him.
Way way way too many of the guilter-nutters seemed to have only read John Follain's book. And by that I mean the edition put out before the 2011 acquittals. As such, the sub-text of the book was that the cops/PM/Massei court was right to first suspect, then convict Sollecito and Knox.

It took awhile to figure out that their "cut and pastes" were mainly from Follain, although to be honest I can't remember what Follain had said about mixed-blood.

Methos!? Where are you!?

Still, it drove me to cut and paste from Court motivation reports and the testimony I could make it through.

It was telling to cut-and-paste what Massei had actually said about mixed blood. There weren't none. Massei convicted anyway.
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Old 28th June 2019, 12:42 PM   #373
Stacyhs
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From Follain:

Quote:
The most significant in the prosecutor’s eyes were mixed traces belonging to both Amanda and Meredith in blood on the bidet. At Raffaele’s flat, traces of Amanda and Raffaele’s blood were found on a dishcloth and on a sponge.
That last sentence I believe is incorrect. I've never read anything about finding blood at RS's apartment, only mixed DNA.

Quote:
Rudy went to the bathroom to fetch some towels to stop the blood; Amanda also went to the bathroom where she left traces of her blood mixed with Meredith’s.
Elsewhere, Follain writes of "mixed DNA traces".
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Old 28th June 2019, 01:21 PM   #374
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Quote:
Rudy went to the bathroom to fetch some towels to stop the blood; Amanda also went to the bathroom where she left traces of her blood mixed with Meredith’s.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Elsewhere, Follain writes of "mixed DNA traces".
Did Follain write this before or after the publication of the Massei motivations report? If after, that proves how sloppy he'd been, taking the prosecutor's word even over the court's.
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The series of continuations here on ISF/JREF got so elongated because of failures to comprehend differences like this.

All it would take, in days' gone by, would be for one innocentisi poster to say something like, "Look, neither Knox nor Sollecito even knew Rudy. Why would either of them (singly or together) ever in a million years conspire with him to murder someone?"

Instead of conceding the exceeding obviousness of that, the thread would be comment-bombed with guilter-nutter posts that boiled down to this:
- Knox had met Guede in the boys apartment on the first floor of the cottage.

- her contacts with him are not inconsistent (note the double negative) with the two of them knowing each other more than that.
That last one was then claimed to be a substitute for actual proof that Knox and Guede had actually conspired in the hours/days before the murder to do the deed. Readers here can make up their own minds about all this, or perhaps even do their own searches here if they're so inspired. But truly, it all boiled down to those two things, which, in turn, became part of what guilter-nutters claimed was this wide existence of "all the other evidence" which when taken together proved guilt......

...... when each and every claimed factoid was about as tenuous.

*********************

ETA - I should add that the Massei convicting court explained in its 2010 motivations report, that it was actually irrelevant whether or not Knox and/or Sollecito knew Guede before the attack on the victim. Remember, this had not been a premeditated attack anyway - acc. to the convicting court, Guede actually needed no motivation to attack a young woman, and had probably begun the attacke with both AK and RS even unawares.

What Massei said was that while "fooling around in Knox's room", they heard the commotion of the attack in the next room, the victim's room. They went to see what was going on, and instead of going to the aid of their friend, they made an inexplicable "choice for evil". Massei surmised that Knox had done that because as someone so young and so far from home, she was detached from the normal moral strictures of her upbringing. That was a convicting court trying to connect dots that weren't even there.

That was it. There was no pre-planning, so it is quite irrelevant whether or not Guede and either of the other two had communicated beforehand. As well, acc. to even the convicting court, the crime was so unpremeditated that Massei had to make up a reason out of whole cloth why Knox had been carrying that large kitchen knife from Raffaele's back to the cottage.

From this distance, does all that look even more ludicrous?
Sorry to tell you this but your heroes Mark II (after Hellmann) state unequivocally that Knox named Patrick to cover up for Rudy.

Great minds think alike and all that.
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:29 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
[...]
It took awhile to figure out that their "cut and pastes" were mainly from Follain, although to be honest I can't remember what Follain had said about mixed-blood.

Methos!? Where are you!?

[...]
Me? Here, either in the basement of Supertanker Central, or feigning to be a Bavarian in the North West of Germany

I think you are mistaking "make up artist"-Follain for "Mixed Blood"-Barbie (3 mentions of "mixed blood") or "Darkness Descending" (14 mentions).

The only mention of "mixed blood" in Follain's book is this one from chapter 32:
Quote:
7 December 2007 After he was extradited to Italy, Rudy gave his most detailed account yet of the night of Meredith’s murder to Judge Matteini, the judge who a month earlier had ordered that Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick should stay in prison.
In a room at the Capanne prison, with Mignini as a silent observer, Rudy first described how he knew Amanda. After meeting her for the first time at Le Chic in early September, he saw her again a month later when the students in the semi-basement flat invited him there. Rudy and the students had been drinking and made some raunchy comments about Amanda, because she was pretty. ‘One of us imagined her in bed, another said he’d give it to her this way or that way,’ Rudy said. Amanda was a slut, the students told him, and she often came to their flat to smoke joints. Rudy said he’d never seen Raffaele and didn’t even know he was Amanda’s boyfriend.

When Amanda came into the flat, the young men looked at each other and burst out laughing because they were still talking about her. Amanda sat down and they all smoked cannabis for the rest of the evening. Then Meredith came in.

‘I admired her beauty, I mean I looked at her because she was a beautiful girl,’ Rudy said. He noticed her English accent and said to her: ‘There isn’t anything English about you.’ Meredith told him about her parents, saying she was of mixed blood. According to Rudy, they talked the whole evening.

Follain, John. Death in Perugia: The Definitive Account of the Meredith Kercher case from her murder to the acquittal of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox (S.202-203). Hodder & Stoughton. Kindle-Version.
Where's the vomiting yellow fellow, when needed?

Barbie "reduced to making snide comments from the sidelines since March 2015" Nadeau has this to say in her book:
#1:
Quote:
Amanda’s own lawyers were less effective. Carlo Dalla Vedova, brought in by the family from Rome because he was fluent in English, had never tried a criminal case. His law practice serves Rome’s power brokers—the United Nations, the Saudis, various business entities—and he is often spotted in hotel lobbies along the via Veneto closing deals. Amanda’s other attorney was Luciano Ghirga, a former soccer star gone soft. Ghirga’s white hair and provincial charm make him lovable. He is the typical country lawyer who knows the deepest secrets about everyone in Perugia. Ghirga had experience with criminal cases, and he knew that the most skeptical journalists were the ones he needed to court. The Knox family had the opposite view and directed him never to speak to the colpe-volisti reporters. But he brushed off the Knoxes with a shrug of the shoulder and bought us more wine and dinners than all the other lawyers combined. He was a charmer, with a formidable crush on Andrea Vogt, which we leveraged for inside details about the case. At times, Ghirga and Dalla Vedova weren’t even on speaking terms, and more than once, I walked into the Turreno café to find them in a heated debate. If Ghirga—a Perugia insider—had been the lead lawyer, the case may have gone differently. But he was sidelined by the flashier Dalla Vedova, whom the family trusted infinitely more, if only because they could actually speak with him. Yet at times it became apparent that Dalla Vedova exploited the language barrier to shield Amanda’s parents from troubling evidence.

“Carlo says there is no mixed blood evidence,” Edda once told me over a beer at the Joyce Pub. “But there is,” I told her, explaining the five spots and where they were found.

“Carlo says that’s wrong, and that they won’t be accepted by the court,” she said, clinging to every false hope he had given her.

Nadeau, Barbie Latza. Angel Face: Sex, Murder and the Inside Story of Amanda Knox (S.148-150). Beast Books. Kindle-Version.
#2 and #3:
Quote:
The defense’s other biggest mistake, according to interviews with jurors after the trial, was doing nothing to refute the mixed-blood evidence beyond noting that it is common to find mingled DNA when two people live in the same house. The jurors needed more than that. “To have mixed blood, you have to both be bleeding,” one of them remarked to me after the verdict. “It was obvious that Meredith was bleeding, but why was Amanda bleeding?”

Nadeau, Barbie Latza. Angel Face: Sex, Murder and the Inside Story of Amanda Knox (S.152-153). Beast Books. Kindle-Version.
So it was Barbie who had to inform Mrs Mellas about the "mixed blood"?

Btw. I just love how she tries to make herself and Andrea Vogt look like respectable or even "investigative" journalists, and still wonder how she could possibly know about what "The Knox family" said to their lawyers?

Well, it's quite interesting that "Barbie" claims to have "explained the mixed blood" evidence to Edda "over a beer", while still claiming that she was (with Vogt) on a battle against the Seattle message machine, because "TV producers learned to be very cautious about being seen with people like me, lest the Knox family should cut them off." ...

I kind of love Barbie's nonsense, because it makes clear that she is not just reporting, but thinks herself a part of (and a player) in "the story"... Especially because she's proving Ms Knox right about people turning her life into clickbait for a living...

Tearful Amanda Knox to Italy: ‘I Am Not a Monster’
Paparazzi Alert: Amanda Knox Returns to Italy to Talk Crime
European Court of Human Rights Sides With Amanda Knox—to a Point

Barbie even invented "death threats" to promote a book written by her on a competely different topic, just to make herself interesting...

But enough of Barbie... back to your question...
It looks like the main "source" for "mixed blood" quotes is "Darkness Descending" (i.e. the pgp's "old testament", Nadeau, Vogt, Follain and John Kercher being their evangelists for their "new testament").
I won't "quote" all of the 14 mentions, just these two are interesting :

Quote:
‘The most interesting thing isn’t the nice footprint in the corridor or on the bathmat, it’s that confused trace in Filomena’s room.’ The DNA specialist really came into her own now. ‘It’s mixed blood, Amanda and Meredith.’ Mignini pressed on: ‘How do we know that it’s blood from both and not blood and biological material of another source?’ Stefanoni: ‘The peaks in DNA are much higher when produced by blood. Both Amanda’s and Meredith’s peaks are high. Both blood, I can assure you.’

Russell, Paul. Darkness Descending - The Murder of Meredith Kercher (Kindle-Positionen5072-5078). Simon & Schuster UK. Kindle-Version.
Quote:
Colonel Garofano then turned his attention to the mixed blood spots in the bathroom next to Meredith’s room. Again, he criticized the methods of collecting samples. But, he said, the presence of Amanda Knox’s DNA is decisively bad for her defence. ‘Now let’s have a look at the washbasin,’ he began.
I saw on the film the way they collected the sample in the washbasin. The fact that the sample was collected by wiping both the edge and the plughole is dangerous. You’re likely to find all sorts of stuff in the plughole. However, here is the electropherogram and you can see that the RFU value is very high, so the sample is undoubtedly blood, which is the body fluid that provides the greatest amount of DNA. In some cases you see higher peaks of Amanda’s DNA than Meredith’s. Amanda has been bleeding. Nor is it old blood, as the defence might say, because blood decays fast. We have the same result on the cotton-bud box. The light switch was over-scrubbed, but from the film the way the cotton-bud box was handled was definitely good enough. There too we have mixed blood. So that’s pretty significant for Amanda. Unfortunately for her, she bled at the same time Meredith was bleeding. That’s a lot to explain.

Russell, Paul. Darkness Descending - The Murder of Meredith Kercher (Kindle-Positionen5669-5679). Simon & Schuster UK. Kindle-Version.


ETA: the highlighted parts from DD are nonsense, of course...
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:46 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Are you seriously claiming that Italians would know the origin of African names? That the boys would know "Guede" is Ivorian and not S. African, Kenyan, Somali, etc? Oh, lord. You are.

You are ascribing knowledge to the boys downstairs that you cannot possibly know in a desperate effort to defend your ridiculous post. Once again, you claim to know what others thought even though it is in direct opposition to what Bonassi told the police.

Ten days before he killed Meredith, Guede told a Spanish journalist, Nacho Azparren, he was from S. Africa:

https://www.lne.es/sucesos/2011/10/0...a/1138272.html




Guede had zero reason to tell the Spanish journalist he was S. African or to tell Bonassi the same. Yet he did. If you read the link above, Guede also lied to his Spanish neighbors about several things, including that he worked for Armani, lived in the US and played basketball for the Univ. of Atlanta. Guede lied for a simple reason: he was an habitual liar as has been well established.




No, it does not prove any of the above. I've been served drinks by many waiters. Do you think they "know" me or my name? Do you think waiters who have served you "know" you and your name?



Your claim is that, for some reason, Guede impressed Meredith so much that she told Amanda about him? After watching a rugby match at a bar with a lot of other people, Meredith chose to tell Amanda about meeting "this guy, named Rudy who is from S. Africa?" Funny she never mentioned him to any of her British girlfriends, innit? But if you believe that, then maybe you find it credible that Meredith really did invite Guede over for a round of canoodling.

Once again: are you conceding that Krissy G's claim that Guede referred to the knife as a 'stiletto' is false? Why would you have such difficulty admitting Krissy G is wrong? It's not like admitting you are wrong.
That is the word of the Spaniard (in 2011) not Rudy. In fact, he goes on to say Rudy claimed to be from Atlanta. I never knew Atlanta was in South Africa. The Spaniard likely gets the 'South Africa' reference from the case itself in retrospect

Read the quote from Follain properly:

Quote:
While questioning Giacomo’s flatmate Stefano Bonassi together, Mignini and Napoleoni learnt that recent visitors to the cottage included a young man nicknamed ‘The Baron’, a ‘South African’ who had a gym-toned body and was strongly attracted to Amanda.
He doesn't directly attribute the quote to Bonassi. The nickname the 'Baron' wasn't to do with drugs (as in drug baron) but some US basketball player Guede idolised, which sounds plausible. Why would an Italian-speaking guy (or even in in his French-speaking mother tongue) even know that 'baron' is English for a spiv (in UK prisons there are 'tobacco barons').
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:54 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
"It proves" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Once again, your attempts at logical analysis and deductive reasoning are woefully inadequate.


Oh and to add one other thing: you base your "argument" about when someone would or would not employ the term "South African" from your own narrow experience as a British national living in England. See, there are an awful lot of South African nationals (particularly in the 18-25 age bracket) living and working in London and the South East. And yes, most of them are white - mostly descendents of Dutch and British settlers. The UK has a specific colonial history with South Africa, and shares several cultural ties with it as well (notably in the sports of rugby and cricket).

But most people outside the UK, for example Italy or the USA, have little or no experience of - or understanding of - South Africa or its ethnicity spread. And in addition, I wouldn't mind betting that many people from both of those countries (the USA especially) might incorrectly use the term "South Africa" to mean someone from the Southern part of the continent of Africa (as opposed to, say, the fairer-skinned Berber or Arabic-speaking populations of the Northern areas of Africa....).

So in fact I'd say it's entirely feasible (note my lack of certitude, in sharp contrast to your own unwarranted certitude in the other direction) that someone from the North West coast of the USA, who'd never before travelled outside the USA and who probably knew little or nothing about the country of South Africa (apart from, perhaps, Nelson Mandela - who was of course Black Xhosa), might refer to a dark-black-skinned person as being from "South Africa".

Yet another giant logic fail from you. Add it to the list.
What nonsense. Italy is full of African migrants, being the first port of call when the migrant boats reach Europe's southern shores. Most of them will be West Africans, like Guede.
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:57 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Me? Here, either in the basement of Supertanker Central, or feigning to be a Bavarian in the North West of Germany

I think you are mistaking "make up artist"-Follain for "Mixed Blood"-Barbie (3 mentions of "mixed blood") or "Darkness Descending" (14 mentions).

The only mention of "mixed blood" in Follain's book is this one from chapter 32:

Where's the vomiting yellow fellow, when needed?

Barbie "reduced to making snide comments from the sidelines since March 2015" Nadeau has this to say in her book:
#1:


#2 and #3:


So it was Barbie who had to inform Mrs Mellas about the "mixed blood"?

Btw. I just love how she tries to make herself and Andrea Vogt look like respectable or even "investigative" journalists, and still wonder how she could possibly know about what "The Knox family" said to their lawyers?

Well, it's quite interesting that "Barbie" claims to have "explained the mixed blood" evidence to Edda "over a beer", while still claiming that she was (with Vogt) on a battle against the Seattle message machine, because "TV producers learned to be very cautious about being seen with people like me, lest the Knox family should cut them off." ...

I kind of love Barbie's nonsense, because it makes clear that she is not just reporting, but thinks herself a part of (and a player) in "the story"... Especially because she's proving Ms Knox right about people turning her life into clickbait for a living...

Tearful Amanda Knox to Italy: ‘I Am Not a Monster’
Paparazzi Alert: Amanda Knox Returns to Italy to Talk Crime
European Court of Human Rights Sides With Amanda Knox—to a Point

Barbie even invented "death threats" to promote a book written by her on a competely different topic, just to make herself interesting...

But enough of Barbie... back to your question...
It looks like the main "source" for "mixed blood" quotes is "Darkness Descending" (i.e. the pgp's "old testament", Nadeau, Vogt, Follain and John Kercher being their evangelists for their "new testament").
I won't "quote" all of the 14 mentions, just these two are interesting :






ETA: the highlighted parts from DD are nonsense, of course...

The value of DD is in the fact it was one of the earliest books about the case. Sure, it contains some inaccuracies but it contains a lot that the defence has tried to airbrush out of history. In addition, it directly interviews Stefanoni and Garofani (_sp?) has a whole chapter as an expert forensic scientist.
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:01 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is the word of the Spaniard (in 2011) not Rudy. In fact, he goes on to say Rudy claimed to be from Atlanta. I never knew Atlanta was in South Africa. The Spaniard likely gets the 'South Africa' reference from the case itself in retrospect

Read the quote from Follain properly:



He doesn't directly attribute the quote to Bonassi. The nickname the 'Baron' wasn't to do with drugs (as in drug baron) but some US basketball player Guede idolised, which sounds plausible. Why would an Italian-speaking guy (or even in in his French-speaking mother tongue) even know that 'baron' is English for a spiv (in UK prisons there are 'tobacco barons').


Oh dear oh dear.

That quote of Follain's in fact directly implies (through the use of inverted commas around 'South African') that Bonassi himself described Guede in those words to our two incompetent prosecutors. Do you know nothing about implied attribution in written English, Vixen?

Oh, and "baron" in no way means (or even implies) "spiv" in English. Rather, it means "tycoon", "magnate" or "major player in...". So, for example, Rupert Murdoch is described as a press baron. The fact that the term can also be applied to people at the top of less fragrant trades ("drugs baron", "porn baron" etc) is of no more relevance than, say, the word "lover" can be used as much for "theatre-lover" or "animal-lover" as for "porn-lover" or "violence-lover" - the term "lover" in itself carries no pejorative meaning per se (just as with "baron")


This is all deeply pathetic "argumentation" on your part, Vixen.
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:07 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What nonsense. Italy is full of African migrants, being the first port of call when the migrant boats reach Europe's southern shores. Most of them will be West Africans, like Guede.


1) How many of these West Africans make it to Seattle, Vixen?

2) How and why are you assuming that "most" African migrants to Italy will be West Africans? Is this another "fact" you've pulled straight out of the proverbial fundament? Because a) All of the closest African nations to Italy are North African nations, with predominantly fairer-skinned ethnicities; b) Italy's two former colonies in Africa were Ethiopia and Libya. The latter is a North African nation (see above), and the former is an East African nation. So please provide us with your data to support your (presumed) "fact" that most African migrants to Italy are from West Africa. Thanks in advance.

3) How and why did Bonassi - a young Italian male adult - apparently describe Guede as "South African" (unless Follain actually invented that attributed quote)? After all, as you seem to present as fact, Bonassi should have been well aware of the difference. Or not.


As I just said: pathetic.
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:11 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The value of DD is in the fact it was one of the earliest books about the case. Sure, it contains some inaccuracies but it contains a lot that the defence has tried to airbrush out of history. In addition, it directly interviews Stefanoni and Garofani (_sp?) has a whole chapter as an expert forensic scientist.

Have the basic decency to actually check people's names for accuracy instead of writing any old thing followed by "(_sp?)". The man's family name is/was Garofano. A fact that it would have taken you literally seconds to check. From someone who claims rigour and accuracy in their analysis, it's woefully poor. Repeatedly.

Oh, and what precisely has the defence tried to airbrush out of history? Entertain us with your list!
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:22 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The value of DD is in the fact it was one of the earliest books about the case. Sure, it contains some inaccuracies but it contains a lot that the defence has tried to airbrush out of history. In addition, it directly interviews Stefanoni and Garofani (_sp?) has a whole chapter as an expert forensic scientist.
Please point me to the parts of DD where it "directly interviews Stefanoni" and
the "lot that the defence has tried to airbrush out of history."

...and the "whole chapter having "Garofani (_sp?)" (no idea you have, about who you are talking, have you?) as an expert forensic scientist...

...please...
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:40 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Did Follain write this before or after the publication of the Massei motivations report? If after, that proves how sloppy he'd been, taking the prosecutor's word even over the court's.
My ebook edition was post-Hellmann acquittal which is included in the book. Hellmann's motivation report is also summarized in it.
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:52 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh dear oh dear.

That quote of Follain's in fact directly implies (through the use of inverted commas around 'South African') that Bonassi himself described Guede in those words to our two incompetent prosecutors. Do you know nothing about implied attribution in written English, Vixen?

Oh, and "baron" in no way means (or even implies) "spiv" in English. Rather, it means "tycoon", "magnate" or "major player in...". So, for example, Rupert Murdoch is described as a press baron. The fact that the term can also be applied to people at the top of less fragrant trades ("drugs baron", "porn baron" etc) is of no more relevance than, say, the word "lover" can be used as much for "theatre-lover" or "animal-lover" as for "porn-lover" or "violence-lover" - the term "lover" in itself carries no pejorative meaning per se (just as with "baron")


This is all deeply pathetic "argumentation" on your part, Vixen.
Would it add to the discussion to point out that the English word "baron" is a borrowing from the Anglo-French word "baron" and still a French word as in "le baron"? In Italian, the word is "barone" or "magnate".
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:24 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to tell you this but your heroes Mark II (after Hellmann) state unequivocally that Knox named Patrick to cover up for Rudy.

Great minds think alike and all that.
Nice try. You're citing the part where the final report summarizes the prosecution case. At the end of that section, the judges concluded that even if all that had been true, it still didn't make up for no forensics in the murder room.

You always leave all that out. I know why.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:27 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Would it add to the discussion to point out that the English word "baron" is a borrowing from the Anglo-French word "baron" and still a French word as in "le baron"? In Italian, the word is "barone" or "magnate".

Well, indeed. And in fact, since the Norman invasion in 1066 it has been - and continues to be - a rank in the nobility. When you hear about "Lord Smith", the actual proper title of the person is "The Baron Smith of xxxx" (where "xxxx" is a place chosen by the person upon their ennoblement).

So, for example, when ex-BP CEO John Browne was ennobled, he became known as Lord Browne, but his correct full title was "The Baron Browne of Madingley"; and when Margaret Thatcher was elevated to the peerage after she resigned as Prime Minister, she was referred to in "shorthand" as "Lady Thatcher", but her proper title was "The Baroness Thatcher of Kesteven in the County of Lincolnshire"*

The two examples above are/were what is known as "Life Peers" - they are ennobled during their lifetimes, and the rank is not handed down to any descendents upon their death. But hereditary peers also take the formal title "Baron", and indeed it's from here that the carried-over use of the word evolved to mean "person at the top of the tree" - hereditary barons were (up until around the mid-late-1800s) the large landowners across the UK, and were all-poweful over the "common people" upon their land.

So there ya go. Back to your regular programming......


* One interesting further point is that it's much more common for women who've been ennobled to be referred to as "Baroness" than it is for ennobled men to be referred to as "Baron". And that's because the prefix "Lady" is also used for the wife of a knight - e.g. Sir Rod Stewart's wife Penny Lancaster has the title "Lady Stewart". So if one were to use "Lady Xxx" to refer to an ennobled woman, it might lead to the misinterpretation that the woman in question was the wife of a knight, rather than a (more important and higher-up-in-the-nobility) member of the Lords. So that's why you see "Baroness Xxxx" being used much more frequently than "Baron Yyyy" (there's no ambiguity when one refers to "Lord Yyyy")
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:52 PM   #388
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Ten days before he killed Meredith, Guede told a Spanish journalist, Nacho Azparren, he was from S. Africa:
Quote:
"My name is Rudy, I was born in South Africa but I spent my childhood in Atlanta (United States). I'm in Italy working for Armani"

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is the word of the Spaniard (in 2011) not Rudy.


Sigh. So now the Spanish journalist is lying? Why is it that anyone who agrees with you is upright and honest and anyone who doesn't is bent or lying?

Quote:
The Spaniard likely gets the 'South Africa' reference from the case itself in retrospect


And you more than likely pulled this out of your....



I've got to give it to you, Vix; you will go down with the ship yelling and screaming "This ship is NOT sinking! You're only telling me the ship is sinking because it's got a huge hole in the side and it's filling up with water!"

Quote:
In fact, he goes on to say Rudy claimed to be from Atlanta. I never knew Atlanta was in South Africa.


Speaking of reading properly, he does not say that Rudy claimed to BE from Atlanta, only that he had lived there and had also told Carlos, one of the Spaniards, that he had played for the Univ. of Atlanta:

Quote:
"My name is Rudy, I was born in South Africa but I spent my childhood in Atlanta (United States). I'm in Italy working for Armani"

"He told me he had played at the University of Atlanta. I thought I was saying it to impress because there were many gaps in that story, "says Carlos.
Of course, I clearly said all this previously but apparently you missed it.


[quote]Read the quote from Follain properly:

Quote:
While questioning Giacomo’s flatmate Stefano Bonassi together, Mignini and Napoleoni learnt that recent visitors to the cottage included a young man nicknamed ‘The Baron’, a ‘South African’ who had a gym-toned body and was strongly attracted to Amanda.
Quote:
He doesn't directly attribute the quote to Bonassi.


Oh but he does...and so says Judge Michelli in his sentencing report of Guede:

Quote:
[47] The determinations concerning GUEDE led to his individuation as the young man of colour who had already emerged from various depositions, in particular that of the already-mentioned BONASSI: this latter had in fact signalled that, one evening, a South African young man nicknamed “the Baron” had spent time at Number 7, Via della Pergola, on the ground floor, and during the evening there had been present both Ms KERCHER and Ms KNOX; he had further added that the young man in question had exhibited a certain attraction for the American woman, and – once going to the bathroom, having had a bit too much to drink – he had straightaway fallen asleep on the toilet.
Quote:
The nickname the 'Baron' wasn't to do with drugs (as in drug baron) but some US basketball player Guede idolised, which sounds plausible. Why would an Italian-speaking guy (or even in in his French-speaking mother tongue) even know that 'baron' is English for a spiv (in UK prisons there are 'tobacco barons').

Nice try. Who said anything about it having to do with drugs? No one. You are he one who brought it up. Guede explains in his prison diary that some Italian guys who lived below him gave him the nickname. But it's completely irrelevant to anything we were actually discussing.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:58 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What nonsense. Italy is full of African migrants, being the first port of call when the migrant boats reach Europe's southern shores. Most of them will be West Africans, like Guede.
Speaking of missing the point entirely....

Yes, Italy is full of African migrants and you propose that Italians would be able to ascertain just where in Africa those migrants come from by their last names. That is just silly.
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:02 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Would it add to the discussion to point out that the English word "baron" is a borrowing from the Anglo-French word "baron" and still a French word as in "le baron"? In Italian, the word is "barone" or "magnate".
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well, indeed. And in fact, since the Norman invasion in 1066 it has been - and continues to be - a rank in the nobility. When you hear about "Lord Smith", the actual proper title of the person is "The Baron Smith of xxxx" (where "xxxx" is a place chosen by the person upon their ennoblement).

....
What I am trying to point out is that when Guede gave himself, or was given by others, the nickname "Baron", the word has the same meaning and approximately the same pronunciation in English (American or British), French, and Italian.
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:10 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to tell you this but your heroes Mark II (after Hellmann) state unequivocally that Knox named Patrick to cover up for Rudy.

Great minds think alike and all that.
Yep, Amanda really covered up for Guede by leaving his bloody footprint on the bathmat* and his crap in the toilet AND pointing them both out to the police. She also made sure to cover for Guede by leaving his visible bloody shoe prints in the bedroom, hallway, and kitchen. And let's not forget leaving his bloody palm print underneath Kercher's body. Yep, leaving all this evidence behind is a tried and true way of covering for somebody!

*Please don't claim it was Sollecito's as then you'd have to explain why Amanda and Raffaele would leave his bloody footprint behind and point it out to the police. But come to think of it, you already tried that when you claimed the pair did it on purpose to 'put one over' on the police to prove they were smarter. THAT was one of your best ever!
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:13 PM   #392
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
What I am trying to point out is that when Guede gave himself, or was given by others, the nickname "Baron", the word has the same meaning and approximately the same pronunciation in English (American or British), French, and Italian.
"The Baron" had nothing to do with the title according to Guede. In his prison diary, he wrote:

Quote:
And then the name “Barrone” was given to me by two Italian guys who live on the floor downstairs. They were the ones who gave me the name of “Baron Davis,” in Italian, “Barrone Davis” after the basketball player who plays with the “Golden States” (NDT: The Golden States Warriors) of the NBA. That’s the reason behind that nickname.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...ry_(Translated)
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Old 28th June 2019, 08:01 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep, Amanda really covered up for Guede by leaving his bloody footprint on the bathmat* and his crap in the toilet AND pointing them both out to the police. She also made sure to cover for Guede by leaving his visible bloody shoe prints in the bedroom, hallway, and kitchen. And let's not forget leaving his bloody palm print underneath Kercher's body. Yep, leaving all this evidence behind is a tried and true way of covering for somebody!

*Please don't claim it was Sollecito's as then you'd have to explain why Amanda and Raffaele would leave his bloody footprint behind and point it out to the police. But come to think of it, you already tried that when you claimed the pair did it on purpose to 'put one over' on the police to prove they were smarter. THAT was one of your best ever!
As Vixen constantly reminds us, Cassazione is not there to rule on the facts of the case. Yet then Vixen turns 180 degrees to claim that, "Cassazione found that X was factual."

What the 2015 Supreme Court did (as it outlined in Section 9.4 of its report) was summarize evidence as both sides, prosecution and defence, submitted it.

It then ruled that even if all of it had been true, none of it approached the unassailable reality that no forensics of either RS or AK were present in the victim's room.

Therefore even if all the factoids (my word) had been true, the Nencini court should have acquitted.

Yet Vixen returns back 180 degrees.... to present the prosecution summary as if it was the only conclusion that Cassazione had arrived at.

And.... as noted upthread, this still does not make judicial facts as fact-facts. The 2015 report had been written with the calunnia conviction as a judicial fact. We've just learned this month, that the ECHR has ruled that the calunnia conviction was based on rights being denied, therefore the conviction should be remedied by the member state.

The calunnia conviction is no longer a fact-fact. It would have been interesting to see how the Italian Supreme Court would have written its report which had exonerated the pair, itself being freed from the calunnia being a judicial fact.
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Old 28th June 2019, 10:59 PM   #394
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Still not going to address my "stiletto" question, are ya, Vix? Let me see if I can muster up some surprise....



........nope.
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Old 29th June 2019, 07:28 AM   #395
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to tell you this but your heroes Mark II (after Hellmann) state unequivocally that Knox named Patrick to cover up for Rudy.

Great minds think alike and all that.
Vixen - each time you make this error you should default to what the Italian Supreme Court actually said, and more importantly, how they framed the factoids you push.

It all starts with Section 9, of a 10-Section report, so it cannot be that hard to read. Section 9 both starts and ends with the conclusion that the Supreme Court reached in annuling the Nencini conviction, and exonerating RS and AK.

Section 9 began with:
Quote:
9. The ascertained errores in iudicando [errors in judgment] and the logical
inconsistencies pointed out invalidate the appealed verdict from the funditus
[foundations], hence it deserves to be annulled.

The aforementioned reasons for annulling can be summarised in the inability to
present an evidentiary framework that can really be considered suitable to support a
pronouncement of guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt, as required by Article 533 of
the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure in the text renewed by Article 5 of the law n.
46/2006.
None of this can be a surprise to you AS IT HAS BEEN PASTED HERE IN THIS THREAD 100 TIMES OR MORE.

But more to the point, the context of Section 9 is what you either willfully miss, or simply are ignorant of. The way that the Supreme Court proves it's assertion that annulment is deserved is because of the way it goes on to example the evidence already on the record.
Quote:
9.3 During the analysis of the aforementioned elements of evidence, it is
certainly useful to remember that, taking for granted that the murder occurred on
via della Pergola, the alleged presence at the house of the defendants cannot, in
itself, be considered as proof of guilt
.
(underlining mine, not in original text.)

Quote:
9.4. However, a matter of undoubted significance in favour of the appellants, in
the sense that it excludes their material participation in the murder, even if it is
hypothesised that they were present in the house
on via della Pergola, consists of the
absolute lack of biological traces attributable to them (except the clasp which will be
dealt with further on) in the murder room or on the victim’s body, where instead
numerous traces attributable to Guede were found.
It is indisputably impossible that traces attributable to the appellants would not
have been found at the crime scene had they taken part in Kercher’s murder
Why is all this indicative of their innocence? Well it's because the Supreme Court took time to REVIEW the evidence, not state whether or not they agreed with each side's point of view. (If you read nothing else, please read 9.2 of the Supreme Court report.......
Quote:
9.2 The aspects of the objectively contradictory nature [of evidence] can be, as
shown below, illustrated for each defendant, in a synoptic presentation of the
elements favourable to the hypothesis of guilt and of the elements against it, as
they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling
and of the previous
ones.
You see, Vixen - what you conveniently ignore, is that the Supreme Court is summarizing, in synoptic fashion, the evidence considered at the Nencini trial. It is not passing judgment on that evidence, per se, except to say....

EVEN IF TRUE IT DOES NOT PUT EITHER OF RS OR AK IN THE MURDER ROOM AT THE TIME OF THE MURDER!

Please don't make me repeat this. However, I know you will.
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Old 29th June 2019, 07:45 AM   #396
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"The Baron" had nothing to do with the title according to Guede. In his prison diary, he wrote:


http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...ry_(Translated)
That's understood. The title is used as someone's name. It's not unknown for words such as "Baron", "Prince", or "King" to be used as a name, just as words used to name flowers, animals, or abstractions are used as personal names.

However, it may be in Guede's case that when he was called "the Baron" or "Baron" not everyone who heard that knew that the reference was to the professional basketball player Baron Davis.

The bottom line is that the discussion should not be diverted by misrepresentations of what the name means, for example, by suggesting it refers to criminal characteristics or criminal activity.

Last edited by Numbers; 29th June 2019 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 29th June 2019, 08:12 AM   #397
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One thing that's perplexing me is that if it is incumbent on Italy to redress the case to the point before the human rights violations took place it means that Italy can't even argue that Amanda was a suspect before Donnino's arrival since they have argued that she was only a witness for long enough; therefore, the case would have to be redressed to the point when Amanda was only a witness, making a resolution more emphatic in her favour. If Amanda had been a suspect before the interrogations as we have long argued it implies that the stage where the violations took place now become a bit murkier since Amanda would still theoretically have a case to answer as a suspect.

Hoots
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Old 29th June 2019, 10:44 AM   #398
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to tell you this but your heroes Mark II (after Hellmann) state unequivocally that Knox named Patrick to cover up for Rudy.

Great minds think alike and all that.
Let's think about your claim logically.

Marasca declares that Knox and Sollecito were not involved in the murder itself in Kercher's bedroom even IF they were in the house. Therefore, Knox and Sollecito were in another part of the house, such as Knox's bedroom as one judge hypothesized. So when Guede murdered Kercher alone in an unpremeditated attack, what crime had AK and RS committed that they needed to cover up? None. Why would they need to cover for Guede at all? They had done nothing to hide from the police and there was no existing friendship between Guede and the other two that would cause them to want to protect him.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 29th June 2019 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 29th June 2019, 11:18 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Let's think about your claim logically.

Marasca declares that Knox and Sollecito were not involved in the murder itself in Kercher's bedroom even IF they were in the house. Therefore, Knox and Sollecito were in another part of the house, such as Knox's bedroom as one judge hypothesized. So when Guede murdered Kercher alone in an unpremeditated attack, what crime had AK and RS committed that they needed to cover up? None. Why would they need to cover for Guede at all? They had done nothing to hide from the police and there was no existing friendship between Guede and the other two that would cause them to want to protect him.
In fact, it would be far more likely that Amanda would be protective of Lumumba rather than Rudy. He had given her a job and their working relationship was good as he confirmed in court.

Hoots
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Old 29th June 2019, 11:27 AM   #400
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Let's think about your claim logically.

Marasca declares that Knox and Sollecito were not involved in the murder itself in Kercher's bedroom even IF they were in the house. Therefore, Knox and Sollecito were in another part of the house, such as Knox's bedroom as one judge hypothesized. So when Guede murdered Kercher alone in an unpremeditated attack, what crime had AK and RS committed that they needed to cover up? None. Why would they need to cover for Guede at all? They had done nothing to hide from the police and there was no existing friendship between Guede and the other two that would cause them to want to protect him.
What you've written is, essentially, Judge Massei's theory of the crime, a theory he used to convict in 2009.

He wrote that it had all boiled down to an inexplicable "choice for evil", once (in his view) Knox and Sollecito discovered that Guede had been attacking the victim in the victim's bedroom.

Massei went further to posit that this choice for evil was because Knox had been away from the moral norms of her upbringing for the first time.

So it's more bizarre than this silly claim that "Knox had covered for Guede". Occams Razor begs for attention here....

.... rather than inventing out of whole cloth other bizarre factoids which need to be invented for a conviction to stand, why not bow to the simplest explanation? Ie. that neither Sollecito nor Knox had been there.....

BTW - "other bizarre factoids" include positing that Knox had carried the kitchen knife from Sollecito's for some other purpose than murder, because even Judge Massei couldn't see how any of this had been premeditated. Everyone here can add more of these....

BTW2 - and those multiple bizarre evidenceless factoid become the fodder for thinking that "all the other evidence" adds up to something, as claimed by Stefano Maffei, the one reputable Italian lawyer who agrees with the guilter-nutters.
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