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Old 28th December 2018, 03:29 AM   #761
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That second highlighted sentence could literally be paraphrased as 'because the gun is held in high esteem in the US'
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:29 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No
What is it you do not understand? Can you give some detail to your answer?
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:31 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Can you please go through what I said, in detail and evidence where I am wrong.
You said this:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet
Proof you are wrong:
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:39 AM   #764
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You said this:

Proof you are wrong:
https://i.imgur.com/MDIeXpf.png
One cherry picked, uncredited copy and paste opinion is not proof I am wrong, especially since I produced evidence from court decisions to show that through out history, there has been, with conditions, a individual right to bear arms.

That you counter me with evidence people had to surrender their guns and could not openly carry them in certain parts of the USA over the years, just shows that basic right came with some conditions.
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:44 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
One cherry picked, uncredited copy and paste opinion is not proof I am wrong, especially since I produced evidence from court decisions to show that through out history, there has been, with conditions, a individual right to bear arms.
Originally Posted by Nessie
In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)

Wrenn v. District of Columbia, No. 16-7025 – On July 25, 2017

On February 13, 2014, in Peruta v. San Diego,
That's some ancient history there, big guy.



First you said this:

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
US attitudes to guns sets the scene in which it is accepted, no matter what the cost, as many people as possible must have the right to bear as many arms as is possible.
Now you're saying this:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You have not shown me any evidence, other than that one copy and paste uncredited opinion, that I am wrong to say citizens have the right to firearms. At most you have pointed out that it is a conditional right [sic], which is not disputed.
And this:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That you counter me with evidence people had to surrender their guns and could not openly carry them in certain parts of the USA over the years, just shows that basic right[sic] came with some conditions.
Which is it?

Last edited by Baylor; 28th December 2018 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:56 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
One cherry picked, uncredited copy and paste opinion is not proof I am wrong,
How about another?

This is wrong:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet
Proof it is wrong:


Last edited by Baylor; 28th December 2018 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 28th December 2018, 04:07 AM   #767
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Can I just check that the question being debated here is "Is the gun held in higher esteem in the USA than in the rest of the western world?"

Can I further check that this is even being disputed? Have I got that right?
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Old 28th December 2018, 01:19 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is my opinion that in the USA the gun is generally, legally and culturally held in high esteem, compared to the UK.
Technically, the gun in America has powerful legal status. We have Great Britain to thank for that.

The Constitution was ratified in 1788 with our revolution fresh in everyone's mind. Rifles and pistols were allowed to be kept by the general public not only because they could put food on the table, and fight off Indians, but because a standing army was expensive, and there was a good change Great Britain might try to assert influence on the continent again.

The War of 1812 cemented the 2nd Amendment into place.

The skirmishes in Texas with Mexico proved the value of the citizenry owning guns.

Guns became part of the fabric of American culture before the Civil War, and the technological advances made with rifles, and pistols between 1960 and 1965 made for more reliable, and more productive/lethal firearms. The muzzle-loaders were out, repeating rifles with brass bullet cartridges were in. Check in any newspaper between 1870 and 1910 from states west of the Mississippi and you'll find guns were out there in the west doing good and bad things:

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

You will also find that well into the 1980's that guns were sold in hardware stores. They were meant to be a tool just like hammers and saws, and were regarded as such until the Great Depression and the rise of organized crime when guns became a means to an end for the criminal element. From the 1920's to present day America you can track the growing misuse of firearms simply by watching Hollywood movies which glorify shooting the bad guys all the way from the original Scarface in 1932, through the TV series The Untouchables, up to 1995's Heat, and whatever the latest crime thriller coming to a theater near you.

I think the issue is your use of the word Esteem is the problem. This implies that gun owners are looked up to in some way because they are gun owners, and that's not always the case. There is a gun culture here. I buy gun magazines yet I don't own a gun. There are also surfing cultures, backpacking cultures, off-road 4-wheel drive cultures, and knitting cultures too, and since there are 327.7 million of us the fact is that guns are less popular than video games.

Guns are constitutionally protected. Guns have political influence disproportional to other, even larger, industries.

And that's the issue or the problem depending on view point.
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Old 28th December 2018, 01:47 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Can I just check that the question being debated here is "Is the gun held in higher esteem in the USA than in the rest of the western world?"
I stated that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA. Initially I did not make a comparison with any other country, but in showing that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA, I have subsequently made a few comparisons.

Quote:
Can I further check that this is even being disputed? Have I got that right?
Baylor is disputing that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA.
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Old 28th December 2018, 01:57 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That's some ancient history there, big guy.
Here is the earliest scholarly commentary on the 2nd;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...rly_commentary

It is clear that the opinion was that people as individuals and not just militia had the right to bear arms. If you have evidence that there was no individual right to bear arms, please can you show it.

Quote:

First you said this:


Now you're saying this:

And this:
Which is it?
All of them, they do not contradict each other. You have yet to show any evidence that there has never been an individual right to bear arms in the USA.
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Old 28th December 2018, 01:59 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
How about another?

This is wrong:

Proof it is wrong:

https://i.imgur.com/06KI4iG.png?1
Again, you present an uncredited source and opinion as evidence. Can you point to any US law which clearly states that individuals do not have the right to own/possess/carry guns?
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Old 28th December 2018, 02:40 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Technically, the gun in America has powerful legal status. We have Great Britain to thank for that.

The Constitution was ratified in 1788 with our revolution fresh in everyone's mind. Rifles and pistols were allowed to be kept by the general public not only because they could put food on the table, and fight off Indians, but because a standing army was expensive, and there was a good change Great Britain might try to assert influence on the continent again.

The War of 1812 cemented the 2nd Amendment into place.

The skirmishes in Texas with Mexico proved the value of the citizenry owning guns.

Guns became part of the fabric of American culture before the Civil War, and the technological advances made with rifles, and pistols between 1960 and 1965 made for more reliable, and more productive/lethal firearms. The muzzle-loaders were out, repeating rifles with brass bullet cartridges were in. Check in any newspaper between 1870 and 1910 from states west of the Mississippi and you'll find guns were out there in the west doing good and bad things:

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

You will also find that well into the 1980's that guns were sold in hardware stores. They were meant to be a tool just like hammers and saws, and were regarded as such until the Great Depression and the rise of organized crime when guns became a means to an end for the criminal element. From the 1920's to present day America you can track the growing misuse of firearms simply by watching Hollywood movies which glorify shooting the bad guys all the way from the original Scarface in 1932, through the TV series The Untouchables, up to 1995's Heat, and whatever the latest crime thriller coming to a theater near you.

I think the issue is your use of the word Esteem is the problem. This implies that gun owners are looked up to in some way because they are gun owners, and that's not always the case. There is a gun culture here. I buy gun magazines yet I don't own a gun. There are also surfing cultures, backpacking cultures, off-road 4-wheel drive cultures, and knitting cultures too, and since there are 327.7 million of us the fact is that guns are less popular than video games.

Guns are constitutionally protected. Guns have political influence disproportional to other, even larger, industries.

And that's the issue or the problem depending on view point.
The 1st underlined: I presume you meant 1880's? But then I've been in stores that have sold both hardware and guns in the 1980's, and much more recently in fact.

The 2nd underlined: Nessie said guns are held in high esteem in the USA, not gun owners.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 28th December 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 28th December 2018, 02:45 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Again, you present an uncredited source and opinion as evidence. Can you point to any US law which clearly states that individuals do not have the right to own/possess/carry guns?
If you mean a law at any level, then there are plenty, and have been plenty in the past (many many more in the past actually, one of my great-uncles did about 10 years hard labor in Texas, yeah Texas, around WW1, for concealed carry).

If you meant just federal law, then you should have left out carry, because we are restricted from carrying in a number of locations federally.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 28th December 2018 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:43 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Again, you present an uncredited source and opinion as evidence. Can you point to any US law which clearly states that individuals do not have the right to own/possess/carry guns?
That's not uncredited (NYMag) nor it is an opinion.

Here's another article this time from the Washington Post proving you wrong

Nessie's wrong claims:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
By mythical I mean [the second amendment] cannot be touched, altered or tampered with in any way. It has remained exactly as it is now, since it first appeared in 1791.
Proof Nessie is wrong:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.94445b5a4971

Last edited by Baylor; 28th December 2018 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 28th December 2018, 03:52 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I stated that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA. Initially I did not make a comparison with any other country, but in showing that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA, I have subsequently made a few comparisons.



Baylor is disputing that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"The gun is held in high esteem[by whom?]" is not a truth-apt statement. This is the sixth time I've told you this.
"The gun is held in high esteem[by whom?]" is not a truth-apt statement. This is now the seventh time I've had to tell you this.
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Old 28th December 2018, 04:19 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2nd is worded exactly now as it was when it first appeared. Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
"In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Supreme Court handed down a landmark decision that held the amendment protects an individual's right to keep a gun at home for self-defense.[17][18] This was the first time the Court had ruled that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun"
ISF skeptics now come self-debunking.
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Old 28th December 2018, 05:29 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That's not uncredited (NYMag) nor it is an opinion.

Here's another article this time from the Washington Post proving you wrong

Nessie's wrong claims:


Proof Nessie is wrong:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.94445b5a4971
Bit of selection there, now that you've finally quoted a source. You should have read the rest, including:

"Today’s Second Amendment

Anyone wishing for a return to an original meaning of the Second Amendment — where no one was a professional soldier, but everyone would be required to participate in the militia — would find themselves far from the political mainstream."
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Old 28th December 2018, 05:44 PM   #778
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Even though it didn't work well for Nessie, you are still allowed to make a point.
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Old 28th December 2018, 05:48 PM   #779
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Your level of comprehension in no way equals your level of condescension.
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Old 28th December 2018, 05:49 PM   #780
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Typical crap I expected.
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Old 28th December 2018, 06:14 PM   #781
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You are the expert.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:32 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
If you mean a law at any level, then there are plenty, and have been plenty in the past (many many more in the past actually, one of my great-uncles did about 10 years hard labor in Texas, yeah Texas, around WW1, for concealed carry).

If you meant just federal law, then you should have left out carry, because we are restricted from carrying in a number of locations federally.
I mean no right to own, possess or carry guns at all, under any circumstances. That is what Baylor is suggesting with his two copy and pasted, uncredited opinions.

I am saying that imposing certain restrictions is different from not having the right at all.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:34 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That's not uncredited (NYMag) nor it is an opinion.

Here's another article this time from the Washington Post proving you wrong

Nessie's wrong claims:


Proof Nessie is wrong:
https://i.imgur.com/RT95ren.png
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.94445b5a4971
So, is your argument, there was no individual right, but people were still legally allowed to possess, own and carry guns with certain restrictions?
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:35 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"The gun is held in high esteem[by whom?]" is not a truth-apt statement. This is now the seventh time I've had to tell you this.
It does not matter that it is not truth-apt. I am expressing an opinion, based on evidence, that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:45 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
ISF skeptics now come self-debunking.
This is the important part;

"This was the first time the Court had ruled that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun"

That reads, there had always been an individual right to one extent or another to own a gun. This was the first time a legal decision had guaranteed that right.

So, when I said "Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet"

I was not wrong, the right has always been there, with certain modifications over the years.

That leads on to the point there are many more firearms in the USA and many more people with guns than any other western nation. So, whatever laws there have been, they have not be particularly restrictive on individual possession and ownership.

Then, despite huge numbers of mass shootings and gun deaths from other causes, there has been little to no agreement on what to do and action to restrict guns from those who should not have them.

Then, to get back on topic, no matter how often the police shoot citizens in circumstances that are not self defence, but the police get to claim self defence, there has been little to no agreement on what to do and action to stop the police from further killings.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:55 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So, is your argument, there was no individual right, but people were still legally allowed to possess, own and carry guns with certain restrictions?
My argument is you are wrong.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:56 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It does not matter that it is not truth-apt. I am expressing an opinion, based on evidence, that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA.
And I expressing the opinion that it is a stupid opinion.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:57 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This is the important part;

"This was the first time the Court had ruled that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun"

That reads, there had always been an individual right to one extent or another to own a gun. This was the first time a legal decision had guaranteed that right.
That's not what that reads at all.
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Old 29th December 2018, 04:00 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I mean no right to own, possess or carry guns at all, under any circumstances. That is what Baylor is suggesting with his two copy and pasted, uncredited opinions.

I am saying that imposing certain restrictions is different from not having the right at all.
You have the right a gun....as long as you don't have a gun.
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Old 29th December 2018, 09:37 AM   #790
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I thought they may be a point to Baylor, I was wrong about that.

Anyway, Americans have always had the right to possess guns and do so in huge amounts with few restrictions compared to other countries.

Police "self defence shootings" and how they often get away with murder, is in part due to the general high esteem guns are held in.
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Old 29th December 2018, 12:38 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Anyway, Americans have always had the right to possess guns
You cited a Supreme Court case that proved the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
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Old 29th December 2018, 01:11 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You cited a Supreme Court case that proved the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
You don't understand what I have been claiming.
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Old 29th December 2018, 01:54 PM   #793
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You are not going to be able to weasel your way out of this mess that you're in.
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Old 29th December 2018, 02:28 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You are not going to be able to weasel your way out of this mess that you're in.
I am not in a mess. This thread is full of evidence that there is a huge problem with police aggression in the USA. One of the reasons why the police are so aggressive is because they feel secure that they can use their guns with a high level of impunity, to the point they can claim almost anything is a threat and they are acting in self defence.

In my opinion, one of the reasons for that is the high regard for and the importance of guns in US culture. Many think that the solution is the gun. But it is actually the problem.
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Old 29th December 2018, 02:43 PM   #795
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That's incredibly racist.
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Old 29th December 2018, 02:44 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That's incredibly racist.
American isn't a race.
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Old 29th December 2018, 02:46 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
American isn't a race.
The people on the left of this bar graph are.

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Old 29th December 2018, 02:50 PM   #798
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I was not directing my comments at blacks. I was directing my comments at Americans and I was generalising.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:32 PM   #799
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You've made your disdain for black people very clear.
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Old 29th December 2018, 03:49 PM   #800
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Your comprehension slip is showing again.
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