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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 28th October 2020, 11:07 PM   #1201
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
I don't get it. What's the mechanism for a pardoned Flynn talking being dangerous/costly to Trump, while an unpardoned, angry Flynn talking not being dangerous/costly to Trump?

I mean, why do you guys think he pardoned commuted Stone's sentence? True friendship?
Your last sentence is the nub here. Stone's sentence was commuted. He wasn't pardoned. In other words, Stone is still a convicted felon.

Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Wait, to be pardoned for those crimes involving Trump, Trump would have to name those crimes in the pardon.
No, that's not true. A pardon can simply be for any and all crimes which may or may not have been committed. See, for example, Ford's pardon of Nixon:

Quote:
Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.
Trump could simply say that Flynn is pardoned for anything he might have done from birth to now.
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Old 28th October 2020, 11:35 PM   #1202
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Flynn might get Trump more money from Turkey and Russia - always a good reason to pardon someone.
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Old 29th October 2020, 01:40 AM   #1203
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Your last sentence is the nub here. Stone's sentence was commuted. He wasn't pardoned. In other words, Stone is still a convicted felon.
Correct

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No, that's not true. A pardon can simply be for any and all crimes which may or may not have been committed. See, for example, Ford's pardon of Nixon:

Trump could simply say that Flynn is pardoned for anything he might have done from birth to now.
Again correct.

Much as I admire Beeyon's grasp of the Flynn case and of court procedures, I don't think he quite understands the all-encompassing nature of Presidedential Pardons.
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Old 29th October 2020, 07:22 AM   #1204
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The Presidential Pardon is one half of a King's power. To grant clemency to a rogue, or to execute a saint. Trump would like to obtain that other half.

I say either is dangerous if left to only the one man to wield. And no less so in a purported 'democracy.'
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Old 29th October 2020, 07:44 AM   #1205
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Quote:
Wait, to be pardoned for those crimes involving Trump, Trump would have to name those crimes in the pardon.
No, that's not true. A pardon can simply be for any and all crimes which may or may not have been committed. See, for example, Ford's pardon of Nixon
I thought I remember reading something about how the law on this hadn't really been tested.

i.e. Its possible that such a 'blanket pardon' is valid, but they won't know until they decide to test it in the courts. (And nobody ever bothered testing it with Nixon.)
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Old 29th October 2020, 07:51 AM   #1206
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In short, a pardon results in immunity from prosecution for the crimes he has been pardoned for (due to double jeopardy).It means he can implicate Trump in any crimes they were both involved in without risk to himself

This is why I doubt Manafort will ever be pardoned by Trump. He knows all about Trump's dealings in Russia.
And can not refuse to testify about them as the fifth amendment is no longer a protection, and can still be charged for lying.
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Old 29th October 2020, 07:53 AM   #1207
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Flynn might get Trump more money from Turkey and Russia - always a good reason to pardon someone.
That is a good thought.

Also, since Trump is so very fond of "The Art of the Deal", then I expect that Trump has already worked out his percentage of these proceeds.
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Old 29th October 2020, 09:53 AM   #1208
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Trump could simply say that Flynn is pardoned for anything he might have done from birth to now.
Okay, that is true. But it is also true that he could issue a pardon to Flynn that is narrowly limited to the false statements charges. Such a pardon wouldn't protect Flynn from exposing some hypothetical underlying criminality involving Trump, and wouldn't result in Flynn losing self-incrimination protection.

Assuming Flynn has real dirt on Trump, I don't see how he doesn't own Trump. Assuming Trump loses the election... either Trump buys Flynn's silence with a pardon, or Flynn buys immunity from the next DoJ with Trump's dirt. Given those options, Trump would presumably pick the pardon.

That is all assuming he (Trump) doesn't do something really wacky like attempt to pardon himself for all past crimes.
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Old 29th October 2020, 11:14 AM   #1209
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The Presidential Pardon is one half of a King's power. To grant clemency to a rogue, or to execute a saint. Trump would like to obtain that other half.

I say either is dangerous if left to only the one man to wield. And no less so in a purported 'democracy.'
I agree; no one man should have such power, which is why I believe a presidential pardon should have to be ratified by both the House and the Senate, and should be able to be challenged in Federal court.
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Old 29th October 2020, 11:34 AM   #1210
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I agree; no one man should have such power, which is why I believe a presidential pardon should have to be ratified by both the House and the Senate, and should be able to be challenged in Federal court.
A) who would have standing?

B) I think you can challenge it in court now.
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Old 29th October 2020, 12:58 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I agree; no one man should have such power, which is why I believe a presidential pardon should have to be ratified by both the House and the Senate, and should be able to be challenged in Federal court.
In the US criminal court system, judges have the authority to override a conviction and issue an acquittal. I have no problem with judges - and presidents - being able to do this.
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Old 29th October 2020, 01:12 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In the US criminal court system, judges have the authority to override a conviction and issue an acquittal. I have no problem with judges - and presidents - being able to do this.
Just like with everything else...

In theory it is a good idea, and it hasn't been a problem with past presidents, where most pardons/commutations seem to be done with some sort of justification/sense of mercy. There may have been questionable uses before (such as Bush commuting Libby's sentence), but those seemed to be the exception.

The problem is that power can be abused, for example by Stubby McBonespurs issuing pardons/commutations to people on his campaign staff and/or republican donors.

Trump: Ruining things for every other president since 2017.
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Old 29th October 2020, 02:47 PM   #1213
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Trump seems to seriously care about Flynn's fate, whatever the real reason may be. Remember "I hope you can let this go"?

If Flynn's leveraged expired with the election, he would have presumably made his play prior to the election. That the proceedings continue indicate that his silence remains desired after the election.
Flynn knows where the pee tape is kept and he knows the combination code.
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Old 29th October 2020, 07:32 PM   #1214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In the US criminal court system, judges have the authority to override a conviction and issue an acquittal. I have no problem with judges - and presidents - being able to do this.
False Equivalence

Judges have to hear evidence presented for and against and make their judgement based on that evidence

Presidents require to see no evidence supporting a pardon, and can simply pardon someone because he/she was/is a friend.

This president has dangled pardons in order persuade witnesses against him not to speak.
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Old 29th October 2020, 09:53 PM   #1215
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In the US criminal court system, judges have the authority to override a conviction and issue an acquittal. I have no problem with judges - and presidents - being able to do this.
You have a propensity to false equivalence that derives from going no farther than assessing the most basic comparator.

Judges who override convictions are subject to oversight and review. Unlike the President, whose pardon power is absolute.
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Old 30th October 2020, 06:05 AM   #1216
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
You have a propensity to false equivalence that derives from going no farther than assessing the most basic comparator.

Judges who override convictions are subject to oversight and review. Unlike the President, whose pardon power is absolute.
I'm okay with the pardon power of the president being absolute in this sense. And I see no reason to deprive future presidents of this power, just because one of them may occasionally pardon a douchebag.
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Old 30th October 2020, 06:09 AM   #1217
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
False Equivalence

Judges have to hear evidence presented for and against and make their judgement based on that evidence

Presidents require to see no evidence supporting a pardon, and can simply pardon someone because he/she was/is a friend.

This president has dangled pardons in order persuade witnesses against him not to speak.
My apologies. I wasn't very clear about what I was equating. My point is, judges can't overrule an acquittal and issue a conviction. They have the power to be more lenient, but not the power to be more punitive. Same thing with the president. He can pardon a conviction or commute a sentence, but he cannot order a conviction or set a sentence by presidential fiat.

In both the case of judges and the case of presidents, we grant the power of leniency, but not the flip side. And in both cases, I think that's a good thing.
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Old 30th October 2020, 09:05 AM   #1218
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The picture is getting clearer: Flynn was the conduit from Turkey to Trump the stop the investigation into the Turkish Bank that financed Iran.
Erdogan had lobbied Biden under Obama to stop it, and Biden said that they would be impeached if they intervened.

No wonder Trump wants the case dismissed.
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Old 30th October 2020, 12:03 PM   #1219
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The picture is getting clearer: Flynn was the conduit from Turkey to Trump the stop the investigation into the Turkish Bank that financed Iran.
Erdogan had lobbied Biden under Obama to stop it, and Biden said that they would be impeached if they intervened.

No wonder Trump wants the case dismissed.
I reckon you just watched the same interview I did!

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Old 25th November 2020, 08:34 AM   #1220
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Per Axios,

Quote:
President Trump has told confidants he plans to pardon his former national security adviser Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty in December 2017 to lying to the FBI about his Russian contacts, two sources with direct knowledge of the discussions tell Axios.
It'll be interesting to see what Sullivan does prior to January 19th.
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Old 25th November 2020, 08:40 AM   #1221
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Per Axios,



It'll be interesting to see what Sullivan does prior to January 19th.
Sullivan is sitting at home, eating popcorn and watching Sidney Powell implode.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:16 PM   #1222
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Uh, that was quick...

Per The Hill,

Quote:
President Trump on Wednesday pardoned Michael Flynn, his first national security adviser who pleaded guilty to a charge in connection with former special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:22 PM   #1223
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Originally Posted by Beeyon
I wonder if this will provide Sullivan with one or two months of clock time? Starting to really seem like Flynn will end up having to accept being a pardoned criminal.
Assuming Trump loses the election, why would he pardon Flynn?

Assuming Trump wins the election, why would he pardon Flynn?

After the election Flynn has no meaning. He is irrelevant.
I never did understand why some here were so confident that he wouldn't pardon Flynn.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:23 PM   #1224
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What a jerk.
He should have done that straight away instead of wasting so much taxpayer money and the time of the court.

I'm guessing that this is just the beginning.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:30 PM   #1225
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I hate that people like this betray the country and then get to celebrate that there’s no consequences for doing it. Oaths to serve the US, especially amongst service members, have to mean something

Bright side is stuff like this makes it much less politically possible for Biden, or anyone else, to consider leniency against Trump later if the situation arises.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:31 PM   #1226
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Does this mean Flynn can be called by a house investigation committee to testify and no longer needs or can use the 5th?
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:33 PM   #1227
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Originally Posted by azazal View Post
Does this mean Flynn can be called by a house investigation committee to testify and no longer needs or can use the 5th?
Yes, but only after the rapist-in-chief leaves office. Given the likelihood that he'd perjure himself, there's no sense risking another pardon.
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Old 25th November 2020, 02:39 PM   #1228
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I wonder what Oliver North thinks of this...
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Old 25th November 2020, 03:48 PM   #1229
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I wonder what Oliver North thinks of this...
The expression "spitting tacks" comes to mind.
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Old 25th November 2020, 03:48 PM   #1230
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Originally Posted by azazal View Post
Does this mean Flynn can be called by a house investigation committee to testify and no longer needs or can use the 5th?
I wonder about the other charges that were buried because Flynn said he would cooperate. Can those still be brought since he didn't honor his agreement?
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Old 25th November 2020, 04:00 PM   #1231
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I wonder about the other charges that were buried because Flynn said he would cooperate. Can those still be brought since he didn't honor his agreement?
Depends on what the pardon is for I suspect. If the pardon is only for lying to the FBI then the other stuff is fair game. I suspect that Trump's pardon will cover all potential charges however.

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Old 25th November 2020, 05:14 PM   #1232
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Depends on what the pardon is for I suspect. If the pardon is only for lying to the FBI then the other stuff is fair game. I suspect that Trump's pardon will cover all potential charges however.

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His pardon only applies to crimes that have already been discovered and investigated. For example, if it was discovered next year that Flynn had in the past, say 20 years ago, committed some other non-SoL crime such as a murder, or money laundering or illegally selling arms, this pardon would not apply to those crimes.
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Old 25th November 2020, 07:37 PM   #1233
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Trump Tweets

Have a great life General Flynn!

It is my Great Honor to announce that General Michael T. Flynn has been granted a Full Pardon. Congratulations to @GenFlynn and his wonderful family, I know you will now have a truly fantastic Thanksgiving!
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Old 25th November 2020, 07:48 PM   #1234
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Have a great life General Flynn!

It is my Great Honor to announce that General Michael T. Flynn has been granted a Full Pardon. Congratulations to @GenFlynn and his wonderful family, I know you will now have a truly fantastic Thanksgiving!
LAW & ORDER!!!
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Old 25th November 2020, 09:47 PM   #1235
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Depending on the level of communication between Trump and Flynn over the FBI investigation, the Pardon might be illegal.

But I very much doubt there will be that level of investigation; not for a long time.
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Old 26th November 2020, 03:00 AM   #1236
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
I never did understand why some here were so confident that he wouldn't pardon Flynn.
Fair call.
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Old 26th November 2020, 03:07 AM   #1237
Susheel
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
LAW & ORDER!!!
Wait...didn't Trump say that he had fired Flynn for lying to him and the FBI, and that it was actually Obama's fault that he was inducted into Trump's "cabinet" (or whatever label you can give to that bizarro circus he has hanging around).
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Old 28th November 2020, 11:56 AM   #1238
Captain_Swoop
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Trump Tweets

Alan Dershowitz: Trump was ‘Absolutely Right‘ to Pardon Michael Flynn https://breitbart.com/politics/2020/...michael-flynn/ via @BreitbartNews
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Old 29th November 2020, 05:00 AM   #1239
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I'm not too bothered by this. General Dumb **** doesn't seem like the kind of guy who stays out of trouble for long.
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Old 29th November 2020, 05:02 AM   #1240
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Alan Dershowitz: Trump was ‘Absolutely Right‘ to Pardon Michael Flynn https://breitbart.com/politics/2020/...michael-flynn/ via @BreitbartNews
I guess Epstein's friends have to stick together. Alan needs to support Trump.
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