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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 12th August 2020, 02:00 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
There was a recent case here where the police dog injured someone. The police report says that the behavior of the police was consistent with police department policies.

The response from the community was, if that is consistent with policy, then the policy needs to be changed.
Cops tend to support policies that get them off the hook when they engage in ďa bit of the old ultraviolenceĒ. (Thank you, Anthony Burgess, for that word and quote).
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Old 12th August 2020, 03:29 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.
Seems ridiculous, right?
The alternative is to allow police more latitude to not follow the book.
Think that turns out better?
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Old 12th August 2020, 03:33 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yes, I think the police included, or added, those things to their procedures book as the law evolved. I also think that police forces establish their own procedures, using current law, for how they expect arrests to be conducted. The point that you seem to be missing is that, just because arrest procedures are carried out in a lawful manner, it does not always make them the appropriate thing to do.
They were forced to add those things. They did not initiate them. The community did.
The laws were made to make the police more professional- less free to behave in whatever manner they saw fit.
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Old 12th August 2020, 04:29 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
They were forced to add those things. They did not initiate them. The community did.
The laws were made to make the police more professional- less free to behave in whatever manner they saw fit.
I did not say otherwise.
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Old 12th August 2020, 04:30 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Seems ridiculous, right?
The alternative is to allow police more latitude to not follow the book.
Think that turns out better?
The alternative actually is to create different policies for dealing with children.
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Old 12th August 2020, 04:32 PM   #86
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Dupe.
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Old 12th August 2020, 05:18 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't at the expense of addicted customers. Getting high is great. People like it. The high from drugs is a benefit.

People get benefits and costs wrong all the time. Getting high is a benefit. Having a job is a cost
Sure. But drugs are also the ultimate consumer good - once you consume them, they're gone. Unlike a car, clothes or a dishwasher, the benefit is gone in a matter of hours. And if anyone else in the family was counting on the money for rent or groceries, too bad. This represents a high opportunity cost, keeping people stuck in neighborhoods where cops feel free to behave badly.
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Old 13th August 2020, 12:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.
Some books should be burnt.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.
The department is being sued. The chief isn't going to admit fault no matter what he thinks.

Cops are infamous for circling the wagons to protect their own. I'm curious what the Chief might have said if the officer had asked him prior to arresting a 8 year old for felony battery.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:52 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Sure. But drugs are also the ultimate consumer good - once you consume them, they're gone. Unlike a car, clothes or a dishwasher, the benefit is gone in a matter of hours. And if anyone else in the family was counting on the money for rent or groceries, too bad. This represents a high opportunity cost, keeping people stuck in neighborhoods where cops feel free to behave badly.
there are no benefits to illegal drugs.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:38 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
there are no benefits to illegal drugs.
What are the benefits of tobacco and alcohol (consumable)?
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:46 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What are the benefits of tobacco and alcohol (consumable)?
And cannabis.

Benefits of legal drugs:
- people donít become criminals because of use
- quality control
- can be purchased from (generally) reputable retailers
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Old 13th August 2020, 10:48 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
"I can't breathe" lol
Yes, someone being asphyxiated is so amusing.
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Old 13th August 2020, 10:55 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
From my German perspective, training of US cops is ridiculously short. I read that the LAPD Academy is just a six-month program, followed by one year rookie status, where they do full duty together with a senior training officer.

Here in Germany, it's three years of training (with a lot of theoretical course work). They do internships in precincts, but not full duty, during that time. After that, they still have some probationary time (although that's probably not a full year).
Two years at the training college, then a year in placements, then back to college.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Still doesn't stop the claims...
Though it may help them kill one-twentieth as many people.
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Old 13th August 2020, 10:59 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Thatís part of it. Another part is that legalizing drugs wonít make most drug dealers go straight. They will often turn to other forms of crime in order to make a living, because most of them are involved in the drug trade to begin with because they either cannot or do not want to work in the legal labor market. Legalization wonít change that. I canít say what the net effect of legalization will be, but there are definitely significant costs to doing so.
And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime.
It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.
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Old 13th August 2020, 12:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
And cannabis.

Benefits of legal drugs:
- people donít become criminals because of use
- quality control
- can be purchased from (generally) reputable retailers
There is also that people like these things. If that is taken out of the equation there are all sorts of things bad for us that badly flunk any cost/benefit analysis.

Soft drinks. The NFL. Reality television. Pop Tarts.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:00 PM   #97
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If we legalize drugs, it will be much harder for cops to hand-wave away civil rights protections during interaction with the public. The existence of commonly used contraband materials is an excellent excuse to conduct searches and other invasions of privacy on people who are otherwise law abiding.

This is especially true with Marijuana, because it is very commonly used and has a strong odor. Since it is impossible to determine after the fact if a cop is lying about smelling the odor of contraband, it is trivially easy for a cop to generate a pretext for probable cause.

This isn't hyperbolic nonsense. Joe Kennedy III, former prosecutor and politician currently running for US Senate, once cited the ability to conduct searches as his reason for opposing legalization (which he has since reversed)

Quote:
“If you smelled [marijuana] in a car, you could search a car,” Kennedy said. “When it became decriminalized, you couldn’t do that.”
https://www.boston.com/news/politics...-iii-marijuana

The war on drugs is a massive boon to cops.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:02 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If we legalize drugs, it will be much harder for cops to hand-wave away civil rights protections during interaction with the public. The existence of commonly used contraband materials is an excellent excuse to conduct searches and other invasions of privacy on people who are otherwise law abiding.

This is especially true with Marijuana, because it is very commonly used and has a strong odor. Since it is impossible to determine after the fact if a cop is lying about smelling the odor of contraband, it is trivially easy for a cop to generate a pretext for probable cause.

This isn't hyperbolic nonsense. Joe Kennedy III, former prosecutor and politician currently running for US Senate, once cited the ability to conduct searches as his reason for opposing legalization (which he has since reversed)



https://www.boston.com/news/politics...-iii-marijuana

The war on drugs is a massive boon to cops.
Also gives them good things to keep on hand to plant for some juicy overtime.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime.
It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.
Canada is a poor example to cite. High government taxes and onerous regulations add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/legal-ca...tcan-1.1195761
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Last edited by rockinkt; 13th August 2020 at 01:09 PM. Reason: edited to add link
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Old 13th August 2020, 02:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Canada is a poor example to cite. High government taxes and onerous regulations add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed.
But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money.
23 Legal shops total. The rest are illegal. Most of the legal shops are less than a year old.

The funding of many of the legal shops has so far been subsidized from the years of illegal business they have done openly with no tax on their illegal supplies of weed. My sources suggest that a lot of the ongoing sales are also a way to wash cash from the illegal wholesale of their illegal cannabis grow-ops.

Also, the huge amount of money raised by the wildly speculative stock market in many cannabis companies has given them a huge cash reserve to fund losses for a long time hoping for something to change in their retail outlets.

Edited to add: I am in favor of legalization of most drugs that are illegal now. I just think that Canada has really made a mistake trying to cash in on a perceived potential windfall through taxation. Reducing police costs and harm reduction is enough to balance the books heavily in favor of legalization. IMHO.
(Former cop speaking)
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Last edited by rockinkt; 13th August 2020 at 04:04 PM. Reason: typo, see edit
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:02 PM   #102
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duplicate post
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And yet countries, such as Canada, have seen so such explosion in crime.
It's almost as if you're spouting nonsense.
If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs.

It's almost as if you're spouting straw men.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:47 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs.

It's almost as if you're spouting straw men.
The one they did legalize recently is by far the most heavily used of the recognized street drugs. It would make sense that cannabis would be the one where the change is most visible.

And FWIW rockinkt's comments apply only to his? personal experiences in the greater Vancouver and should not be applied to the range of experiences across the entire country.
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Old 13th August 2020, 08:09 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The one they did legalize recently is by far the most heavily used of the recognized street drugs. It would make sense that cannabis would be the one where the change is most visible.

And FWIW rockinkt's comments apply only to his? personal experiences in the greater Vancouver and should not be applied to the range of experiences across the entire country.
Nonsense! You used Vancouver as an example. Your facts exaggerations were wrong. I posted the facts regarding numbers. My information is obtained by perusing information from a variety of public and private sources. My link was from a reputable source. Here are some more:

Deloitte said Canada’s legal cannabis industry would grow to as much as $4.34 billion in the first year of legalization, and that the majority of purchases would be made through the legal market rather than illicit sources. However, earlier StatsCan data shows that the illicit market still represents between 70 and 80 per cent of all cannabis sales in the first year of legalization.
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/pot-sale...tion-1.1361025

https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magaz...kets-in-chaos/

Now it is your turn to come up with evidence to back your claims. So far you have nothing.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 13th August 2020 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:18 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Chief says they did it right. Followed the book.
Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.
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Old 17th August 2020, 03:19 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.
No it's a job for armed teachers!
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Old 17th August 2020, 10:50 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why the hell are armed police being called in on an unruly child anyway? That's not a job for police.
Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.
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Old 17th August 2020, 02:20 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.
Schools, especially elementary/middle schools need what amount to bouncers. People big enough and strong enough to keep these kids from hurting themselves or others without injuring them in he process.

The average teacher's aide tasked with dealing with an 8 year old run amok would be lucky to win an even fight with the eight year old. They need an ex-linebacker that can with little effort gently control the child while being able to take any punishment the kid dishes out.

This job, unlike being a cop, would have it be clear that self defense isn't a thing. The job is to protect the safety of child and staff even by getting hurt in the process.
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Old 18th August 2020, 01:23 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Schools, especially elementary/middle schools need what amount to bouncers. People big enough and strong enough to keep these kids from hurting themselves or others without injuring them in he process.

The average teacher's aide tasked with dealing with an 8 year old run amok would be lucky to win an even fight with the eight year old. They need an ex-linebacker that can with little effort gently control the child while being able to take any punishment the kid dishes out.

This job, unlike being a cop, would have it be clear that self defense isn't a thing. The job is to protect the safety of child and staff even by getting hurt in the process.
They need to safely and gently hogtie the kid and call the parent(s) or guardian to take him home and keep him there. If the kid can't make it in a classroom without violence - keep him to heck out of the classroom and get him the obvious psychiatric help he needs. If the psychiatric help isn't available - the parents can keep him until he is old enough and commits a serious enough crime to be jailed.
Too many classrooms have become dumping grounds for out of control kids that make it nearly impossible for the kids who can function in a classroom setting to actually learn.
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Old 18th August 2020, 01:45 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
They need to safely and gently hogtie the kid and call the parent(s) or guardian to take him home and keep him there. If the kid can't make it in a classroom without violence - keep him to heck out of the classroom and get him the obvious psychiatric help he needs. If the psychiatric help isn't available - the parents can keep him until he is old enough and commits a serious enough crime to be jailed.
Too many classrooms have become dumping grounds for out of control kids that make it nearly impossible for the kids who can function in a classroom setting to actually learn.
Sure this works just great in a country where money is everything and even people with kids are forced to work (sometimes multiple jobs).
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Old 18th August 2020, 04:29 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Since the Columbine shootings many American schools have taken to having a police officer in the school. So now, when an eight year old with personality issues physically assaults a teacher (the boy had apparently hit her in the chest with his fist), instead of being sent to the office for the principal and perhaps a counsellor to deal with, they call in the police officer.
Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal.

An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:46 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Sure this works just great in a country where money is everything and even people with kids are forced to work (sometimes multiple jobs).
Your assumption that this kid is from a poor family or all "problem" children are from poor families is very telling.
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Old 18th August 2020, 04:22 PM   #114
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And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control *because* they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out?
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:20 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control *because* they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out?
And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school?

Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if".
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:24 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal.

An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.
Where in the wide world of sports did you come up with the absurd notion that the word "assault" means "crime"?
If you don't know the meaning of a word maybe you should try and look it up on Google.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school?

Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if".
Yup. Call the cops to cuff the little bugger. Obviously no other way to handle it in the good ol' USA.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:54 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Even using the word assault in this context is absurd. A child of 8 years old is unable to commit assault because they are unable to having the necessary mental capacity for their actions to be considered criminal.

An 8 year old hitting their teacher is a behavioral problem, not a crime.
Which is why it's a problem for a trained social worker or counsellor, not an armed cop.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:28 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Where in the wide world of sports did you come up with the absurd notion that the word "assault" means "crime"?
If you don't know the meaning of a word maybe you should try and look it up on Google.

While we're looking up words, check out what "hogtie" actually means. I honestly thought your earlier post was sarcasm, because you said to "gently and safely hogtie" misbehaving kids. I suppose if that doesn't correct the issue, a mild flogging, then a moderate beheading, would be called for.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:44 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Your assumption that this kid is from a poor family or all "problem" children are from poor families is very telling.
Your willingness to fling a strawman at me is very telling
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