ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th September 2017, 04:24 PM   #121
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 7,191
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Seems like the people who did agriculture got pretty good at kicking the butts of Hunter gatherers. What good did not farming do them?
That was larger due to population. Farming could support a lot more people from the same area of land, so when the farmers decided to expand over into that next valley, it was easy to kick the hunter-gatherers out (or capture them and make slaves of them).
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #122
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I've always wondered. Was the first batch of beer the result of mixing bread dough with too much water, or was the first batch of bread dough the result of mixing beer with not enough water?
We know that some like to eat fermented fruit so intentionally getting drunk almost certainly was a hominid pastime before agriculture or baking.

That doesn't answer your question.

However it does allow this amusing derail showing dolphins seemingly using pufferfish to get high

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2017, 10:56 AM   #123
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,751
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Until recently, in most societies writing was the monopoly of an elite.
Now we can only long for the good ol' days.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 07:59 AM   #124
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,918
I'm going to say it again, the end of the last ice age had a lot to do with the change from predominately hunter/gather societies into agrarian societies.

https://www.livescience.com/40311-pl...ene-epoch.html
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #125
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 18,663
One thing which I am noticing. The OP asks about the beginning of agriculture, which I think of as the deliberate cultivation of plants and animals.

Much of the discussion seems to be concerned with agrarian cultures, which is a different proposition entirely.

I suspect that human agriculture predates agrarian societies by quite a bit. In fact it would almost have to.

Hunter-gatherer cultures were not constantly on the move. Mostly they moved with the seasons. This tended to put less of a premium on what we normally envision as permanent structures, but they would have stayed in one place long enough to nurture and harvest many types of crops.

And they could take their livestock with them when they left.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 10:48 AM   #126
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
One thing which I am noticing. The OP asks about the beginning of agriculture, which I think of as the deliberate cultivation of plants and animals.

Much of the discussion seems to be concerned with agrarian cultures, which is a different proposition entirely.

I suspect that human agriculture predates agrarian societies by quite a bit. In fact it would almost have to.

Hunter-gatherer cultures were not constantly on the move. Mostly they moved with the seasons. This tended to put less of a premium on what we normally envision as permanent structures, but they would have stayed in one place long enough to nurture and harvest many types of crops.

And they could take their livestock with them when they left.
It is extremely probable that the earliest agriculture was a subsidiary seasonal occupation, starting when natural stands of grasses were reinforced (and at length replaced) by stands containing (and at length entirely consisting of) the product of intentionally sown seed. In other respects the lives of these first agriculturalists would have been that of nomadic gatherers, with an annual date to visit the increasingly artificial fields of wheat and barley.

They might have been detained there for longer and longer periods when the crop became abundant enough to require protracted processing, and constant guarding from interlopers and rodents. Finally, without having planned to in advance, or having envisaged the future in any detail, they became permanently attached to a patch of soil, and their other movements and productive activities diminished little by little towards complete abandonment.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 10:58 AM   #127
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Somewhere between the central U.S. and Hades
Posts: 11,231
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It is extremely probable that the earliest agriculture was a subsidiary seasonal occupation, starting when natural stands of grasses were reinforced (and at length replaced) by stands containing (and at length entirely consisting of) the product of intentionally sown seed. In other respects the lives of these first agriculturalists would have been that of nomadic gatherers, with an annual date to visit the increasingly artificial fields of wheat and barley.

They might have been detained there for longer and longer periods when the crop became abundant enough to require protracted processing, and constant guarding from interlopers and rodents. Finally, without having planned to in advance, or having envisaged the future in any detail, they became permanently attached to a patch of soil, and their other movements and productive activities diminished little by little towards complete abandonment.
A bit of support for this also, I believe. I'm no expert, but I seem to recall some "hybrid" nomadic societies, where there's a primary home base/camp that's never fully abandoned, but a large part of the group still roams a wide area during some seasons for hunting and gathering additional materials. That ring a bell with anyone? I can't recall any specifics, and may be way out on a limb here. I'm not sure the right name for this type (assuming I'm remembering correctly), so it's hard to find on a google search.
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 02:29 PM   #128
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Old Blighty
Posts: 10,527
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm going to say it again, the end of the last ice age had a lot to do with the change from predominately hunter/gather societies into agrarian societies.

https://www.livescience.com/40311-pl...ene-epoch.html
Hunter Gathering went on a long time after the Ice Age.
__________________
"Let's roll!"

~ Todd Beamer
Flight 93, 9/11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 02:58 PM   #129
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hunter Gathering went on a long time after the Ice Age.
In various corners it goes on to this day. But the invention of agriculture, even if at first it was practiced only by a few communities, may well be a result of the end of the ice age.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 03:15 PM   #130
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Old Blighty
Posts: 10,527
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
In various corners it goes on to this day. But the invention of agriculture, even if at first it was practiced only by a few communities, may well be a result of the end of the ice age.
I don't see that the article mentions this. Farming is broadly thought to have been introduced from the Middle East, who did not have an Ice Age (at least not the LGM).
__________________
"Let's roll!"

~ Todd Beamer
Flight 93, 9/11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 03:25 PM   #131
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 12,830
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm going to say it again, the end of the last ice age had a lot to do with the change from predominately hunter/gather societies into agrarian societies.

https://www.livescience.com/40311-pl...ene-epoch.html
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hunter Gathering went on a long time after the Ice Age.
Right up to the present day, in fact. There aren't that many of those societies left, but they still exist. But that has nothing to do with the development of agriculture.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 03:40 PM   #132
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't see that the article mentions this. Farming is broadly thought to have been introduced from the Middle East, who did not have an Ice Age (at least not the LGM).
They had no complete glaciation, but various effects of the ice age were more widespread, including climate and rainfall effects; and the extinction of the megafauna happened throughout the world's major land masses. Changes in sea level were of course world wide. Much of all this affected the Middle East.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2017, 03:44 PM   #133
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Old Blighty
Posts: 10,527
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
They had no complete glaciation, but various effects of the ice age were more widespread, including climate and rainfall effects; and the extinction of the megafauna happened throughout the world's major land masses. Changes in sea level were of course world wide. Much of all this affected the Middle East.
Chris Stringer (the 'establishment view') believes that after the Ice Age, people returned from their refugia in warmer climes (Southern Eurasia) in hot pursuit of game (animals) back to northern Europe.

I can't see there is any causal link between the end of the Ice Age and the 'invention' as it were, of agriculture.
__________________
"Let's roll!"

~ Todd Beamer
Flight 93, 9/11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 09:49 AM   #134
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,635
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
A bit of support for this also, I believe. I'm no expert, but I seem to recall some "hybrid" nomadic societies, where there's a primary home base/camp that's never fully abandoned, but a large part of the group still roams a wide area during some seasons for hunting and gathering additional materials. That ring a bell with anyone? I can't recall any specifics, and may be way out on a limb here. I'm not sure the right name for this type (assuming I'm remembering correctly), so it's hard to find on a google search.
That's kind of what I remember learning as well. I used to work with several Native American tribe, a common sort of pre-disruption lifestyle was like this:

The didn't just wander randomly. They had traditional camp/village sites that they moved between. Each family would stay at the same spot each year when they returned. There might be one larger village that most of the group stayed at for part of the year, then dispersal to several smaller "seasonal" village/camps for another part of the year, then return back to the main camp. Depending on wildlife patterns and wild food plant fecundity, some of them might have moved between the smaller seasonal camps, with some of them being larger in some years than other years - but each seasonal camp still had a sort of a core family or group that stayed there in all but the worst years.

They practiced a sort of rough agriculture with woody plants, pruning off dead branches, planing seeds from those that produced tasty fruit or seeds, and tearing out those that produced few fruit/seeds or that produced fruit/seeds that were unpalatable. They would burn vegetation in wetlands to favor fire-tolerant species because those tended to have more edible biomass. Some of the tribes burned upland areas as well, to keep conifer trees from encroaching on the oak trees that produced edible acorns. (The meadows in Yosemite owe much of their size and extent to American Indian cultural land management practices - now that those are disrupted, the National Park Service struggles to keep the meadows from being overgrown by conifer trees).

So there was room for proto-agriculture - setting the conditions for things to grow and even doing some planting before leaving for part of the year, returning to the same spot some months later to follow-through. This could include creating conditions favorable to some annual plants that could be harvested upon return.

The big leap to Agrarian Society seems to have been reaching the point where it made sense and was practical to stay year round, focusing on those annual plants (grains and legumes). Basic agriculture preceded that by a good margin.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 10:04 AM   #135
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Chris Stringer (the 'establishment view') believes that after the Ice Age, people returned from their refugia in warmer climes (Southern Eurasia) in hot pursuit of game (animals) back to northern Europe.
Sure they did; but that simple process was in no way the only effect of the end of the Ice Age. There were important climatic effects very far from the areas directly affected by glaciation.
Quote:
I can't see there is any causal link between the end of the Ice Age and the 'invention' as it were, of agriculture.
Not in terms of simple things like people following reindeer herds as these creatures ventured further north. Such people weren't changing their lifestyles. But there were other subtle results elsewhere, which might have induced radical lifestyle changes.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 01:41 PM   #136
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Sure they did; but that simple process was in no way the only effect of the end of the Ice Age. There were important climatic effects very far from the areas directly affected by glaciation. Not in terms of simple things like people following reindeer herds as these creatures ventured further north. Such people weren't changing their lifestyles. But there were other subtle results elsewhere, which might have induced radical lifestyle changes.
And not just climactic.

The Persian Gulf was pretty much all land. Southeast Asia lost an area equivalent to India
(in Sundaland)

This would have been prime Mesolithic hunter-gatherer landscape*, being coastal - even I can get a reasonable meal from a beach.

There probably wasn't a need for farming at that stage.

In the Persian Gulf there probably was a sudden flood followed by about a thousand years of water advancing. As an aside, a major flood with a millennium of advancing water (and having to move camps every year) would be ideally suited to getting such an event into oral histories.


*More speculatively, than this being the origin of a flood myth, I do wonder if the loss of the coastal land area was an inspiration to the Garden of Eden myth.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 02:05 PM   #137
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,505
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I've always wondered. Was the first batch of beer the result of mixing bread dough with too much water, or was the first batch of bread dough the result of mixing beer with not enough water?
Neither most likely. Yeast is in the air. Just let stuff sit out.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 02:06 PM   #138
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
even I can get a reasonable meal from a beach.

... I do wonder if the loss of the coastal land area was an inspiration to the Garden of Eden myth.
The G of E is clearly forested and there is a sacred tree in it. Not a sacred whelk. Or sacred seaweed. I bet your "reasonable" beach meal contains these sorts of things, which seem to be absent from Eden. So I don't think that myth was inspired by beaches.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 02:15 PM   #139
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Good point - the idea only struck me as I was writing it.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 14th September 2017 at 02:18 PM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 02:18 PM   #140
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Of course Malthus would mean that until birth control, unless there is a virgin landscape, or a technological improvement allowing more food harvesting, then the population would tend to be limited by one of the four horsemen. Which is not exactly paradise.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 02:44 PM   #141
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Of course Malthus would mean that until birth control, unless there is a virgin landscape, or a technological improvement allowing more food harvesting, then the population would tend to be limited by one of the four horsemen. Which is not exactly paradise.
It wasn't limited by epidemic disease among hunter gatherers. The saying has been coined that there have been three main causes of death since humans existed. In pre-agricultural times it was "accident", which includes famine and climatic effects, as well as broken bones and the like. Then after the agricultural and urban revolutions it was "disease".

In very recent times the main cause of death has been "decay". For the first time the majority of people are living long enough to fall apart when their bodies and brains conk out.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 02:51 PM   #142
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It wasn't limited by epidemic disease among hunter gatherers. The saying has been coined that there have been three main causes of death since humans existed. In pre-agricultural times it was "accident", which includes famine and climatic effects, as well as broken bones and the like. Then after the agricultural and urban revolutions it was "disease".

In very recent times the main cause of death has been "decay". For the first time the majority of people are living long enough to fall apart when their bodies and brains conk out.
I'd have thought that accident wouldn't limit the population, unlike food shortages or violence/predation.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 03:03 PM   #143
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'd have thought that accident wouldn't limit the population, unlike food shortages or violence/predation.
I think food shortages and interhuman violence (as well as being attacked by predatory animals, snakes, poisonous insects etc) are included in this broad definition of "accident".
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 03:11 PM   #144
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think food shortages and interhuman violence (as well as being attacked by predatory animals, snakes, poisonous insects etc) are included in this broad definition of "accident".
Food shortages would be "famine", most of those would be "war" or "trauma/violence" and malaria (for example, to think of one that does affect hunter gatherers, and has had a strong evolutionary effect, and almost certainly predated agriculture, would be "pestilence" in my view.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 07:47 PM   #145
Retrograde
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just downstream from the Big Tree
Posts: 628
Quote:
Acorns and anything to do with the oak tree (Quercus quercus) is highly poisonous, as an alkaloid, as British POWs found out when fed acorns by their German captors.
And yet acorns were the backbone of the pre-contact Californian diet. They developed tools for harvesting them, granaries to store the surplus out of reach of pests until they could be used, leaching processes for removing the tannins, grindstones for processing the nuts (there were large grindstone complexes where people from various groups could come together and process the acorns as a communal activity). They also ate what they could find or catch: berries, a variety of seeds and roots, fish, and game. Where to find edible stuff was something passed down by mothers taking their daughters gathering and fathers taking their sons fishing or hunting.

It's now thought that pre-contact California had a large population density for the Americas. California today is a major agricultural state, but that required a lot of infrastructure - both technological as well as bureaucratic - to move water from where it tends to fall to where it's needed for crops.
Retrograde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 09:14 PM   #146
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Food shortages would be "famine", most of those would be "war" or "trauma/violence" and malaria (for example, to think of one that does affect hunter gatherers, and has had a strong evolutionary effect, and almost certainly predated agriculture, would be "pestilence" in my view.
Of course the malaria bearing organism existed very long ago, but History of MalariaWP informs us that
About 10,000 years ago, malaria started having a major impact on human survival, coinciding with the start of agriculture in the Neolithic revolution.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 09:56 PM   #147
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Food shortages would be "famine", most of those would be "war" or "trauma/violence" and malaria (for example, to think of one that does affect hunter gatherers, and has had a strong evolutionary effect, and almost certainly predated agriculture, would be "pestilence" in my view.
Of course the malaria bearing organism existed very long ago, but History of MalariaWP informs us that
About 10,000 years ago, malaria started having a major impact on human survival, coinciding with the start of agriculture in the Neolithic revolution.
Among hunter gatherers infant mortality and violence were very common causes of death.
The average hunter-gatherer mortality rate is 38% before 15 years.The world average is 6% before 5 years. Since the age specific mortality rate generally only declines before 15, the world average before 15 could not be more than 18% Modern medicine has significantly reduced the infant and child mortality rate in developed countries. https://condensedscience.wordpress.c...-other-groups/

Several archaeologists and anthropologists now argue that violence was much more pervasive in hunter-gatherer society than in more recent eras. ... The warfare death rate of 0.5% of the population per year that Lawrence Keeley of the University of Illinois calculates as typical of hunter-gatherer societies would equate to 2 billion people dying during the 20th century.
http://www.economist.com/node/10278703
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 10:20 PM   #148
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Of course the malaria bearing organism existed very long ago, but History of MalariaWP informs us that
About 10,000 years ago, malaria started having a major impact on human survival, coinciding with the start of agriculture in the Neolithic revolution.
Among hunter gatherers infant mortality and violence were very common causes of death.
The average hunter-gatherer mortality rate is 38% before 15 years.The world average is 6% before 5 years. Since the age specific mortality rate generally only declines before 15, the world average before 15 could not be more than 18% Modern medicine has significantly reduced the infant and child mortality rate in developed countries. https://condensedscience.wordpress.c...-other-groups/

Several archaeologists and anthropologists now argue that violence was much more pervasive in hunter-gatherer society than in more recent eras. ... The warfare death rate of 0.5% of the population per year that Lawrence Keeley of the University of Illinois calculates as typical of hunter-gatherer societies would equate to 2 billion people dying during the 20th century.
http://www.economist.com/node/10278703

Yes, those figures are consistent with what I had heard before for violence - which also goes hand in hand whenever there are food shortages.

I hadn't looked into Malaria, it was just that unlike, say Smallpox, or TB, for example, it didn't actually arise as a result of domestication of livestock (cattle in those examples, IIRC). Interesting.

I do think that the forced migration due to the loss of land and especially loss of coastal littoral would have been quite a significant driver for agriculture - as the need suddenly arose.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2017, 10:37 PM   #149
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,846
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, those figures are consistent with what I had heard before for violence - which also goes hand in hand whenever there are food shortages.

I hadn't looked into Malaria, it was just that unlike, say Smallpox, or TB, for example, it didn't actually arise as a result of domestication of livestock (cattle in those examples, IIRC). Interesting.

I do think that the forced migration due to the loss of land and especially loss of coastal littoral would have been quite a significant driver for agriculture - as the need suddenly arose.
I think malaria requires a concentration of hosts to reach a stable rate of reproduction, and small isolated populations of hunter gatherers don't provide this. Either the disease fails to take hold, or it kills the whole of a very small isolated population and then dies out for want of hosts. The infected mosquitoes also die off very quickly.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2017, 04:44 PM   #150
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,918
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hunter Gathering went on a long time after the Ice Age.
For some it did, but the Younger Dryas (mini ice age after the last major ice age) lasted about 1200 years. During this time those hunter gathers were finding it more difficult to find the larger prey that they depended on for a living. One mammoth could feed a family or group for a good while. Once the kill and food prep for a mammoth kill was done there wasn't much work left to do to supply the group's needs for a few months.

However, the big prey died off before the world warmed again, that made agriculture more attractive than subsistence living hunting smaller prey more frequently. We still have a few hunter/gatherer societies left in the world even now, for that matter, but I believe climate change was the biggest driver for the development of predominately agrarian societies in the world.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:35 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.