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Old 11th September 2017, 06:18 AM   #2201
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
He also told us only 1% of people consuming the majority at the moment. It stands to reason with the 99% wanting more, there will be a hundred fold increase in demand, ergo more pollution.

Gaetan also seems to think that rich people, the people that tend to own insurance companies, production companies and perto-chemical companies. Companies that can be devastated in natural disasters. Somehow make money with the destruction and hopeful rebuilding of their own investments.

So the perto-chemical company you own gets demolished but is rebuilt by the construction company you own. However, all the costs are being paid by the insurance company you own. As this also involves a lot of other people getting paid not only doesn't all the money your insurance company pays out come back to you (perhaps even just as your original capital investment in the plant) or them but that reinvestment stimulates the local economy specifically by involving and paying all those other people.

As I've noted before you don't have to be rich or a price gouger to make money from a natural disaster. Those that tend to lose the most money in a natural disaster are those that tend to have the most capital investment in that area, which includes rich people. Taxpayers and insurance companies tend to be the ones that foot the bills in such disasters which include just immediate survival of the populace and isn't generally considered a capital investment like rebuilding a plant, facility or building. Again simple survival of your workforce is one of the costs (in materials, energy and labor, what the money pays for) of labor even before you have that labor do anything else for you.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:26 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The system of money is a system of monopoly game, it can't work. The money will always goes to the 1% leaving 99% in misery. It can't work at small scale and neither at big scale. It is proven that it can't work while the no money system always been proven to work.
What are you babbling about? It's been working for thousands of years.

Do you really think that a significant percentage of people in the West right now live in misery?
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:29 AM   #2203
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Nothing was invented by people interested with money
Most developments were made because there was a profit in it. Stop making stuff up. You're embarrassing yourself.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:50 AM   #2204
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The thread is deteriorating into the verbal ping-pong with Gaetan, which has continued for years. I don't doubt the ability of Gaetan to continue answering in the same manner for another 3 years.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:58 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
The thread is deteriorating into the verbal ping-pong with Gaetan, which has continued for years. I don't doubt the ability of Gaetan to continue answering in the same manner for another 3 years.
It does seem that Gaetan makes up some answers without thinking it through.

We know that a no money system can work in small isolated tribes but not on a large scale modern society.

Gaetan doesn't seem to grasp the concept that for profit companies work for profits (money) and lacking money or some other compensation, they will no longer operate.
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:43 AM   #2206
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
We know that a no money system can work in small isolated tribes but not on a large scale modern society.
Why not?

Quote:
Gaetan doesn't seem to grasp the concept that for profit companies work for profits (money) and lacking money or some other compensation, they will no longer operate.
Why not? Some organisations are non profit and they work. Your capitalist system works for only 1%, mine 100%.
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:00 AM   #2207
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why not?



Why not? Some organisations are non profit and they work. Your capitalist system works for only 1%, mine 100%.
Why was money invented? You keep telling untruths and running away. Answer the questions.
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Old 13th September 2017, 08:28 AM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Some organisations are non profit and they work.
Given that not every business owner is evil, perhaps it is more pertinent to ask why some ARE for profit, and why they were not established as non-profit organisations.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your capitalist system works for only 1%, mine 100%.
You don't have a system. If you did, you would have described it in detail by now.
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Old 13th September 2017, 08:40 AM   #2209
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
<snip>
Please try not to propagate Gaetan's borked quotes. It's part of the game.

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
You don't have a system. If you did, you would have described it in detail by now.
Therein lies the rub. Gaetan has no idea how or even if it could work. The proposal seems to be to simply make everything free at a whim. What happens thereafter is chaos and mayhem. When put to it, the only example provided was a tribe of fewer than 1,000 individuals living in rough groups of 20-30 leading a hunter gatherer life.

The odd thing is that the couple of proponents of this lifestyle seem to WANT that, despite the fact that it would require a massive culling of the human population. Or maybe that is the result they seek. Genocide by other means.
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:53 AM   #2210
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why not?
Because a for profit company works for profit (money). If there is no profit, they shut their doors. You can see evidence of it anywhere. Many businesses who shut down do so because of a lack of profit. If McDonald's stopped making profit, they would close their doors.

Why don't you show evidence that your system can work?

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why Why not? Some organisations are non profit and they work. Your capitalist system works for only 1%, mine 100%.
I don't know of any non profit businesses however, that operate without money. Non profit organizations pay their employees money!

And non profit organizations might help the homeless, send food to starving Ethiopians, or provide other nice services, but as far as I know, none of them
build cars or appliances, or provide electricity. These companies operate for profit (money) and their services would stop if there was no money.

Your only example of a no money society was a hunter/gatherer group, which is what many of us here have claimed all along.
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:47 AM   #2211
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You fellows are in the 1%, you have your reward, others can die from starvation, it doesn't bother you. Your leader is now in Florida to see the result of pollution profit. Another 20 years and you'll see these hurricanes every day, these zones won't be habitable except Las Vegas.
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:52 AM   #2212
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are in the 1%,
LOL, pure googly-eyed fantasy.

Quote:
you have your reward, others can die from starvation, it doesn't bother you.
Where did you get that from any of the discussion? More pure fantasy.

Quote:
Your leader is now in Florida to see the result of pollution profit. Another 20 years and you'll see these hurricanes every day, these zones won't be habitable except Las Vegas.
Seriously, you just make up random crap.

Why was money invented?
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:57 AM   #2213
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why not?
Human nature, something that ideologues often forget to plug into their equations.

Quote:
Why not? Some organisations are non profit and they work.
They work within a larger context of profit.

Quote:
Your capitalist system works for only 1%, mine 100%.
No, we've established that your system doesn't work at all, because it require physically forcing people into compliance. And won't the leaders of your system be better off? Don't make me laugh.
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Old 14th September 2017, 08:58 AM   #2214
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are in the 1%, you have your reward, others can die from starvation, it doesn't bother you. Your leader is now in Florida to see the result of pollution profit. Another 20 years and you'll see these hurricanes every day, these zones won't be habitable except Las Vegas.
Nice work of fantasy there. When you're ready to discuss reality, what we really believe or think, or whether we're rich or even Americans, get back to us.
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:07 AM   #2215
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are in the 1%, you have your reward, others can die from starvation, it doesn't bother you. Your leader is now in Florida to see the result of pollution profit. Another 20 years and you'll see these hurricanes every day, these zones won't be habitable except Las Vegas.
You waste a post on bluster like this, but won't discuss the nuts and bolts of a "better" plan.

You are so much like Trump. You make the same hollow promises that everything will be better, but never tell us how you intend to make it work.

Like Trump, it is because you have no clue if or how, things would work.
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Old 14th September 2017, 10:11 AM   #2216
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are in the 1%, you have your reward, others can die from starvation, it doesn't bother you. Your leader is now in Florida to see the result of pollution profit. Another 20 years and you'll see these hurricanes every day, these zones won't be habitable except Las Vegas.
Maybe you should re-think that 1% since it seems like only you and one other person advocate for a no money world and everyone else is against it.

As for dying from starvation, you have yet to explain how your no money world, consisting of hunters and gatherers will be able to supply food to starving Ethiopians.

I don't see how a natural disaster can be profitable. If I own a hotel and insurance company and the hurricane destroys my hotel, my insurance company will wind up paying for the damage. Where's the profit?

At least with money, people in other places can send money so the people in Texas or Florida can purchase goods and supplies to help feed them and rebuild the city. What is your no money society going to do to help these folks? The answer is NOTHING.

I choose money. You are of bad faith.
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:53 AM   #2217
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I declare this thread dead and buried.

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Old 18th September 2017, 01:15 PM   #2218
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
I don't see how a natural disaster can be profitable. If I own a hotel and insurance company and the hurricane destroys my hotel, my insurance company will wind up paying for the damage. Where's the profit?
You forget that insurance companies are profit industries, they won't pay for it.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:58 PM   #2219
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You forget that insurance companies are profit industries, they won't pay for it.
Would you be ok with all the millions of insurance company and banking employees becoming bikini model photographers after you've done away with their jobs?

Why was money invented?
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Old 18th September 2017, 03:20 PM   #2220
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You forget that insurance companies are profit industries, they won't pay for it.
And profit industries won't exist in a no money world. You won't have to clean toilets. Eventually there won't be toilets because toilets are made my for profit companies, which will no longer exist in your world.
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:54 PM   #2221
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You forget that insurance companies are profit industries, they won't pay for it.
You forget that insurance is a contract. Generally speaking, if a covered loss occurs, the insurance company pays out. There is a reason that there are multiple insurance companies out there. If you don't like the coverage, or the cost, you switch carriers.

What else do you need help understanding?
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:31 AM   #2222
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You forget that insurance companies are profit industries, they won't pay for it.
You seem to forget that rich people profiting from natural disasters was your claim. If it is now also your assertion that insurance companies "won't pay for it", meaning abandoning their contractual obligations. How do those rich people even recover their loss let alone make a profit?
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:27 AM   #2223
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
You seem to forget that rich people profiting from natural disasters was your claim. If it is now also your assertion that insurance companies "won't pay for it", meaning abandoning their contractual obligations. How do those rich people even recover their loss let alone make a profit?
Oh, that's easy. People buy insurance against specific events. When those events actually transpire, nobody makes any claim that is ever paid out, so the insurance company simply keeps the money.

That is Gaetan's world view.

It is, of course, utterly wrong, as I can state having made more than one claim paid out over the years. None of my doing, but specific risks insured and paid.

According to Gaetan, this never happens.
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Old 21st September 2017, 05:50 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh, that's easy. People buy insurance against specific events. When those events actually transpire, nobody makes any claim that is ever paid out, so the insurance company simply keeps the money.

That is Gaetan's world view.
Never opt for the "never pay policy".


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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is, of course, utterly wrong, as I can state having made more than one claim paid out over the years. None of my doing, but specific risks insured and paid.

According to Gaetan, this never happens.
Yep, between myself, friends and family I can't recall a claim that wasn't paid. Not to say that legitimate claims being denied doesn't happen, it is just outside my personal experience.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:32 AM   #2225
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Insurance companies pays if you break a pipe when washing clothes, they pay for a particular average, but they won't pay for a general average like 30,000 houses destroyed by a hurricane. Your love for money will cause your lost and the lost of others believing in money.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 07:15 AM   #2226
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Insurance companies pays if you break a pipe when washing clothes, they pay for a particular average, but they won't pay for a general average like 30,000 houses destroyed by a hurricane.
That's just more googly-eyed made up nonsense.

Quote:
Your love for money will cause your lost and the lost of others believing in money.
When?

Why was money invented and what do you do to earn money?
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Old 23rd September 2017, 07:53 AM   #2227
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Gaetan, do as you please, of course, but don't you think your arguments would be more meaningful if you didn't just make crap up?
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:15 AM   #2228
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Insurance companies pays if you break a pipe when washing clothes, they pay for a particular average, but they won't pay for a general average like 30,000 houses destroyed by a hurricane. Your love for money will cause your lost and the lost of others believing in money.
I don't know of anyone who has insurance for a washing machine. But my neighbor and some others in my neighborhood all had their homes repaired and paid for by insurance when a mini tornado came through and ripped the roofing off their homes.

Nobody here has said they love money. But many have said money is a valuable tool that can be used in many useful ways. Rather than working daily, I get to have days off and even take vacations because I have money. Money is like stored up work.

If you have no money, you'll need to find food on a daily basis or starve. Keep in mind that food processing companies work for money and will stop if profits are not available. Then you'll be forced to farm your own food, hunt for meat and Ethiopians will continue to starve because there won't be an abundance to share with them.

Your plan fails Gaetan.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:07 AM   #2229
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
I don't know of anyone who has insurance for a washing machine. But my neighbor and some others in my neighborhood all had their homes repaired and paid for by insurance when a mini tornado came through and ripped the roofing off their homes.
Where I live, which is Scandinavia, home insurances tend to cover home appliances. Within the last 12 months my washing machine got broken only months after the guarantee expired. My home insurance paid back 60% of its value when new. Then my son tipped the television from the table to the floor. It was bought 6 months ago, and under factory guarantee, but that wouldn't cover what happened. Again my home insurance came to the rescue, and paid back 80% of its value. 4 years ago my artificial ceramic tooth crown got cracked in half, for no known reason. Again my home insurance (!) paid some 90% of its 1000 EUR replacing cost. The only question they asked was: Did this happen in organized sports or a street fight? To which I replied: No, ma'am.

But all insurances tend to have a clause that excludes payments in case of force majeure circumstances, or natural disasters. To get those included in your coverage, you would need to pay a higher fee than the standard rate that most people take, I guess.

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Old 24th September 2017, 08:57 AM   #2230
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Insurance companies pays if you break a pipe when washing clothes, they pay for a particular average, but they won't pay for a general average like 30,000 houses destroyed by a hurricane. Your love for money will cause your lost and the lost of others believing in money.
So now the rich people lose money in natural disasters instead of profiting as you claimed before?


ETA:

From today's Times Herald Record some $8.2 billion paid to 144,000 policy holders for flood damage from hurricane Sandy.

(Sorry can't find the article online to link, try again when I look at the paper again)
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Old 28th September 2017, 01:33 AM   #2231
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What are you babbling about? It's been working for thousands of years.
1% holding 50% of the wealth, unavoidable boom and bust cycles, forced redistribution to address inequality, frequent interventions to avert disaster. Enormous waste, over-consumption, social upheaval and ecological damage. It may be 'working', but not alone and largely in spite of itself.

Quote:
Do you really think that a significant percentage of people in the West right now live in misery?
I know they do, and not just the poor. Why are they miserable? Because everything they need and want depends on money. So they spend their entire lives trying to make more of it, thinking it will make them happier. And when it doesn't they strive for even more.

I grew up next door to a family of millionaires. They spent half their time obsessing about money, and the rest using it as drug. Most of them are dead now - killed by their money.
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Old 28th September 2017, 05:59 AM   #2232
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
1% holding 50% of the wealth, unavoidable boom and bust cycles, forced redistribution to address inequality, frequent interventions to avert disaster. Enormous waste, over-consumption, social upheaval and ecological damage. It may be 'working', but not alone and largely in spite of itself.

I know they do, and not just the poor. Why are they miserable? Because everything they need and want depends on money. So they spend their entire lives trying to make more of it, thinking it will make them happier. And when it doesn't they strive for even more.

I grew up next door to a family of millionaires. They spent half their time obsessing about money, and the rest using it as drug. Most of them are dead now - killed by their money.
How would that be changed by eliminating money?
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Old 28th September 2017, 01:50 PM   #2233
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
How would that be changed by eliminating money?
You will eliminate a lot of unwanted things the first are criminality and inequality. I discussed it earlier.
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Old 28th September 2017, 01:55 PM   #2234
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You will eliminate a lot of unwanted things the first are criminality and inequality. I discussed it earlier.
No, you asserted it without evidence earlier as you just now did again. Now answer the question I asked.
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:42 PM   #2235
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
No, you asserted it without evidence earlier as you just now did again. Now answer the question I asked.
What ever i say you'll always says it is not right, your leader is now sending food in Porto Rico to help for the damage caused by US pollution for Pittsburgh he said profit.
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:47 PM   #2236
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What ever i say you'll always says it is not right,
Sure. Because you have yet to get anything right and everyone will continue to point out that you are wrong as long as you remain wrong.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
your leader is now sending food in Porto Rico to help for the damage caused by US pollution for Pittsburgh he said profit.
Wow. I take it you mean "Puerto Rico" even though you can't spell it, and the orange menace is not my leader nor the leader of the other 95% of humanity and WT actual F does Pittsburgh have to do with anything?
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:59 PM   #2237
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What ever i say you'll always says it is not right,
Only because everything you've said is wrong.

Quote:
your leader is now sending food in Porto Rico to help for the damage caused by US pollution for Pittsburgh he said profit.
Googly eyed nonsense.

Answer the questions asked unless you understand why you can't.
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Old 28th September 2017, 03:48 PM   #2238
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You will eliminate a lot of unwanted things the first are criminality and inequality. I discussed it earlier.
You might eliminate some property crimes because if everything is "free", then it won't be against the law for me to take your car and food. But many crimes often have nothing to do with money. Murder, rape, assault and some other crimes will continue to happen even if there is no money so you are wrong on those points.

And you won't eliminate inequality. It will still happen, just like with other items. Some people will have more crops or livestock than others. Inequality is just a fact of life.
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Old 30th September 2017, 08:13 AM   #2239
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
You might eliminate some property crimes because if everything is "free", then it won't be against the law for me to take your car and food. But many crimes often have nothing to do with money. Murder, rape, assault and some other crimes will continue to happen even if there is no money so you are wrong on those points.

And you won't eliminate inequality. It will still happen, just like with other items. Some people will have more crops or livestock than others. Inequality is just a fact of life.

Exactly, even in Gaetan's ideal of everyone working just for some kind of spatial improvement still means some will be more 'spiritually improved' than others. Exemplified again by Gaetan's assertions of some occupations and endeavors being deserving of shame. So not only is the elimination of inequality not expected, such inequality is an explicit element of Gaetan's stated shaming motivational system. Unless of course Gaetan's assertion is now that everyone simply becomes equally deserving of shame in that system which simply makes the notion and system shameful itself.
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Old 30th September 2017, 08:18 AM   #2240
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What ever i say you'll always says it is not right, your leader is now sending food in Porto Rico to help for the damage caused by US pollution for Pittsburgh he said profit.
So again which is it, they profit from the pollution or they don't because they end up paying for the recovery and repair as a result of such pollution?


Again is environmental impact a cost that isn't labor?
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