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Tags war crime charges , winston churchill , World War II history

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Old 26th December 2008, 09:26 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
Actually, they do. Please re-read your own source. I don't see the word "minefield" in there; they are specifically NOT criticizing the high command for operational failures and losses, but for strategic failures.
Paragraph 4 would seem to disagree with you. As I previously said, sending warships into know mined waters without anti mine capabilities would seem to defy common sense. If the RN minesweepers had been deployed they undoubted would have found the new mines laid a few days before the attack. These mines (Line 11)

See map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lipoli1915.jpg

The fleet did not get any capability until March 20th, two days after the attack. Prior to the first attack the area was swept by civilians in trawlers.

It is easy to say the fleet should have pressed on, but both the British and French navies had their greatest battle losses since Trafalga in 1815. Losses both commanding officers thought could have been avoided
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Old 28th December 2008, 09:53 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Old Bob View Post
Gord this is me I don't do evidence
This is possibly the most truthful thing Old Bob has posted here.
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Old 28th December 2008, 10:22 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is possibly the most truthful thing Old Bob has posted here.
I am .
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Old 29th December 2008, 01:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
Really? Churchill was the watch officer on all seven of the battleships simultaneously?
And Churchill was also the squadron captain, or the person who decided which type of bombs to drop on Dresden that day? I think we both are on the same page as far as the OP goes, I was just trying to illustrate the absurdity of Charging him with war crimes for Dresden, by bringing up what many would consider a blunder that should have disqualified him from ever becoming Prime Minister.

PS- GORD IN TORONTO- You should have an epilepsy warning before you post those smileys. Seriously, I just looked at them and I've got a Migraine coming down.

Pigs are all good.
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Old 29th December 2008, 01:54 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post

<snip>

PS- GORD IN TORONTO- You should have an epilepsy warning before you post those smileys. Seriously, I just looked at them and I've got a Migraine coming down.
I apologize. They are a standard part of this site's smiley set and I do find them particularly attention getting. But I see that they could be a problem to some. I'll stick with the pigs. Are they OK with you?
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Old 29th December 2008, 02:11 PM   #86
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The bombing of Dresden was a mistake but not illegal. The allies thought that the Germans had a arms manufacturing center there. Also the attack was a terror tactic which was used to force the German people into turning on their government.
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Old 29th December 2008, 03:05 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
This may surprise you, but sometimes the military is required to operate in dangerous circumstances. Believe it or not, the bad guys have ammunition for their guns, and sometimes the good guys actually get shot!
Proper guns, not toy guns? Blimey! If it was a big war, someone might be hurt.
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Old 29th December 2008, 04:40 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Proper guns, not toy guns? Blimey! If it was a big war, someone might be hurt.

Not to mention...FRESH FRUIT!!!
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Old 30th December 2008, 10:39 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The bombing of Dresden was a mistake but not illegal. The allies thought that the Germans had a arms manufacturing center there.

There were military production facilities in Dresden. One can question whether hitting them was really necessary at that stage of the war, but nevertheless the facilities existed. Quoting from Reap the Whirlwind by Spencer Dunmore and William Carter:

Quote:
Pre-war Dresden could hardly have been described as a major industrial centre. But the war had changed the city's industrial face. By early 1945, Dresden had two companies engaged in aircraft and engine repairs plus twenty-four engineering and armaments firms. Products included small arms and ammunition, machine tools, electric gauges and measuring instruments, radio receivers and transmitters for ships and aircraft, electric generators and motors for U-Boats, gear wheels and differentials for vehicles, firefighting equipment, grinding wheels, small steam turbines for minesweepers, cameras and lenses for U-Boat periscopes, anti-aircraft and artillery weapons, tank landing and assault craft, chemicals, and explosives. The city had long been an important railway centre with many repair shops and yards. Through Dresden passed the lines that connected Berlin with Prague and Vienna and that linked eastern and southern Germany. The city was also a freshwater port, the Elbe being a much-used artery for freight traffic.


Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Also the attack was a terror tactic which was used to force the German people into turning on their government.

All area raids had as a part of their rationale the (presumed) psychological effects, namely the breaking of the enemy's civilian morale. That goes back to the pre-war theories of air power, theories which were shown to be incorrect by the end of the war.
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Old 31st December 2008, 10:20 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Not to mention...FRESH FRUIT!!!
What if he's got a pointed stick?
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Old 1st January 2009, 11:23 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The bombing of Dresden was a mistake but not illegal. The allies thought that the Germans had a arms manufacturing center there. Also the attack was a terror tactic which was used to force the German people into turning on their government.
I believe the allies also bombed the city at the bequest of the Soviets who were concerned about operations in the area
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Old 2nd April 2016, 07:58 AM   #92
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Churchill Was A War Criminal

Winston Churchill fits the Nuremberg Tribunal description as a war criminal in that he deliberately targeted civilians -
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09...hipped-mammon/
Churchill was a racist and imperialist - http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/...inst-humanity/
Churchill deliberately allowed millions of Indians to starve to death - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8241
Yet the MSM and Hollywood continue to either ignore or downplay his many crimes.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 08:00 AM   #93
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I'm sure you could have done a better job. Pity you weren't there to lead the Empire.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 08:18 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Winston Churchill fits the Nuremberg Tribunal description as a war criminal in that he deliberately targeted civilians -
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09...hipped-mammon/
Churchill was a racist and imperialist - http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/...inst-humanity/
Churchill deliberately allowed millions of Indians to starve to death - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8241
Yet the MSM and Hollywood continue to either ignore or downplay his many crimes.
1) Truther site with anti-semitic leanings
2) Far left site with little credibility
3) Holocaust denier site

You'll have to do better than that before anyone will have a look at your claims.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 08:41 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Churchill Was A War Criminal
Only in certain Bizarro Universes.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 08:46 AM   #96
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Didn't we already have a thread on this a year or two ago?

Found it- OP was November 2008. I will suggest merging the threads. But then I need to wash up.

Last edited by Giordano; 2nd April 2016 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 09:36 AM   #97
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Not only was Churchill a war criminal, but he wasn't nearly as good a dancer as you-know-who.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 09:41 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Not only was Churchill a war criminal, but he wasn't nearly as good a dancer as you-know-who.
Roosevelt?
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Old 2nd April 2016, 11:44 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Winston Churchill fits the Nuremberg Tribunal description as a war criminal in that he deliberately targeted civilians -
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09...hipped-mammon/
Churchill was a racist and imperialist - http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/...inst-humanity/
Churchill deliberately allowed millions of Indians to starve to death - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8241
Yet the MSM and Hollywood continue to either ignore or downplay his many crimes.
Codoh, Counterpunch and Veterans Today, the triad of stupidity. Couldn't find anything similarly moronic at Infowars?
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Old 2nd April 2016, 12:36 PM   #100
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THAT'S BECAUSE YOU WERE TAKEN IN BY THE BBC! Filthy British lies! But did they ever say a bad word about Winston Churchill? CHURCHILL!
With his cigars, and his brandy, and his ROTTEN paintings! ROTTEN! Hitler, there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon! Two coats!
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Old 2nd April 2016, 01:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Hitler, there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon! Two coats!
My father had the bad luck to grow up in Germany during WWII, and I think he laughed harder at that line than anything else I can recall. Not even the Roadrunner and Coyote.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 01:16 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Winston Churchill fits the Nuremberg Tribunal description as a war criminal in that he deliberately targeted civilians -
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09...hipped-mammon/
Churchill was a racist and imperialist - http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/...inst-humanity/
Churchill deliberately allowed millions of Indians to starve to death - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8241
Yet the MSM and Hollywood continue to either ignore or downplay his many crimes.
At the risk of entering a conversation that will fill my screen with stupid, I'll bite.

I haven't read the links, nor do I intend to, but I think I know enough about the history that I don't need to.

So, to your points.....
1) He targeted civilians. No doubt at all about it. He did.

And? Did the post-war criminal tribunals define the targeting of civilians as a war crime? Was anyone prosecuted for the blitz? Or the bombing of Rotterdam? When that happened, people were outraged, but by the end of the war, it was pretty much an accepted part of war.

The key difference, when it comes to targeting civilians, between Hitler and Churchill was the circumstances under which civilians were killed. Hitler deliberately killed civilians living in territory that his armies controlled. Churchill killed civilians that were in enemy occupied territory, actively supporting the enemy armies.

World War II really blurred the lines between civilian and military. People have debated the morality of allied bombings, but no reasonable person would compare the allied targeting of civilians and Hitler's programs of murdering civilians in occupied territory.

2) He was a racist and imperialist.

Yes. What was your point again?

3) The Indian famine.

At least since the invention of the steam ship, there's really no reason that anyone should have ever had to starve in a famine. Shall we prosecute people for some sort of crime for failing to provide adequate relief? This particular famine involved crop failures and war. That means they had more excuses than most world leaders have had in other cases where people starved.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 01:24 PM   #103
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There wasn't enough food sent to China to alleviate the famine. And propping up China kept the Japanese out of India. If anyone thinks the Brits where harsh overlords...
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Old 2nd April 2016, 01:27 PM   #104
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Let's dig Churchill up, try his corpse, find it guilty, behead it, and spike the trophy up on the facade of some cathedral or other. The Stuarts did that with Old Noll, and just see all the good it did them.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 11:48 PM   #105
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The Germans did similar things in WW1. No war crimes followed.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 09:43 AM   #106
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Looking at the laws of armed conflict, no.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 10:07 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Let's dig Churchill up, try his corpse, find it guilty, behead it, and spike the trophy up on the facade of some cathedral or other. The Stuarts did that with Old Noll, and just see all the good it did them.
Wasn't there also a dig-em-up and try them after death event with Pope Formosus?
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Old 3rd April 2016, 10:19 AM   #108
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He used to be a British Flag
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Old 3rd April 2016, 12:08 PM   #109
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Dressed in drag?
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Old 3rd April 2016, 01:04 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Wasn't there also a dig-em-up and try them after death event with Pope Formosus?
I take it he wasn't infallible.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 01:09 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Dressed in drag?
With a plastic bag
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Old 3rd April 2016, 02:56 PM   #112
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I think the better question is, did Churchill commit (or authorize) crimes against humanity.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 03:32 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Railyards at Dresden were critical in supplying the German Armies on the Eastern Front and , were, if anything, a more direct military target then the factories around Dresden,although there also were legitimate targets.

This 'Moral Equivlency' crap is driving me crazy.
Moral Equivalency is of no importance as best I can see. ROW state that any civilian area that contains military, military production, military supplies, military services, military transport/facilitation, military energy supplies /output/command/communication/personnel is a legitimate target -though if it is possible civilians should not be targeted. Also, by the ROW, any person(s) responsible for such being in the civilian locations is considered to be a war criminal.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 03:40 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
With a plastic bag
What a drag.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 05:40 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Not only was Churchill a war criminal, but he wasn't nearly as good a dancer as you-know-who.
Hitler could paint a room before Churchill could get the paint mixed.
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Old 4th April 2016, 02:51 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think the better question is, did Churchill commit (or authorize) crimes against humanity.


Using the general definition from Wiki, or

"Unlike war crimes, crimes against humanity can be committed during peace or war.[1] They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. Murder; massacres; dehumanization; extermination; human experimentation; extrajudicial punishments; death squads; forced disappearances; military use of children; kidnappings; unjust imprisonment; slavery; cannibalism, torture; rape; political, racial, or religious persecution that may include the use of blasphemy laws or laws against defamation of religion or other similar wording, or inappropriate hate speech laws; and other inhumane acts may reach the threshold of crimes against humanity if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice."

Not for his conduct during WWII.
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Old 4th April 2016, 03:12 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Moral Equivalency is of no importance as best I can see. ROW state that any civilian area that contains military, military production, military supplies, military services, military transport/facilitation, military energy supplies /output/command/communication/personnel is a legitimate target -though if it is possible civilians should not be targeted. Also, by the ROW, any person(s) responsible for such being in the civilian locations is considered to be a war criminal.
Irrelevant. Here is Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris enunciating the principles on which the bombing campaign was based.
The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive...should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany.

... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories.
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Old 4th April 2016, 03:58 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Wasn't there also a dig-em-up and try them after death event with Pope Formosus?
Cromwell was executed post-mortem.
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Old 4th April 2016, 05:18 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Cromwell was executed post-mortem.
The remains of the rebel "Mahdi" of Sudan were exhumed and desecrated following the British reconquest in 1898. Churchill later criticised this act in terms that do him credit.
Churchill had strong feelings about Kitchener and his destruction of the Mahdi's Tomb, writing in The River War: "By Sir H. Kitchener's orders, the Tomb has been profaned and razed to the ground. The corpse of the Mahdi was dug up. The head was separated from the body, and, to quote the official explanation, 'preserved for future disposal'.... If, on the other hand, the people of the Sudan still venerated the memory of the Mahdi, and more than 50,000 had fought hard only a week before to assert their respect and belief, then I shall not hesitate to declare that to destroy what was sacred and holy to them was a wicked act, of which the true Christian, no less than the philosopher, must express his abhorrence.

Last edited by Craig B; 4th April 2016 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 4th April 2016, 07:50 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Moral Equivalency is of no importance as best I can see. ROW state that any civilian area that contains military, military production, military supplies, military services, military transport/facilitation, military energy supplies /output/command/communication/personnel is a legitimate target -though if it is possible civilians should not be targeted. Also, by the ROW, any person(s) responsible for such being in the civilian locations is considered to be a war criminal.
Well, while possibly not illegal in WW2, given that most of the curret rules come from the Geneva Convention of 1949 (you know, AFTER the war), deliberately targeting civilians for the sole purpose of terrorizing them is currently explicitly forbidden. (See, for example: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac_3.htm ) Needless to say, terror bombing was an actual doctrine on both sides in WW2.

I would also like to point out that in firebombing and generally terror bombing, civilians were not colateral damage -- which is accepted when attacking a military objective -- but the MAIN targets of the RAF attacks, and for that matter of the USAAF later in Japan. It's not like they attacked a factory, and the city just got the side effect. Burning down cities was the purpose. And the bomb mix and the whole bombing tactic also wasn't even all that good against factories or anything. It was something designed for one purpose only: to burn down civilian houses.

Again, I'm aware that you can't apply a convention from 1949 to Dresden (and actually other cities got hit even worse), but I hope I can be excused if I still view it as a bit of a, you know, dick move.

And sure, the Nazis started it, but, you know, it's hard to see someone as the hero if they model their behaviour on being more ruthless and efficient at it than the villain.
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