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Old 18th July 2014, 06:52 AM   #41
JoeBentley
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If you would have free market you would always pay the non profit price, this means the market wouldn't make any profit and others that can't level with that would desappear, so they all agree to sale the same price with a margin of fair profit.
If a thousand poets each wrote in a thousand languages for a thousand years they would not be able to describe how factually wrong that sentence was.
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Old 18th July 2014, 08:22 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
I'm glad to see that you admit that actions against fair trade are illegal in the US. And people who speed get tickets and pay fines and people who collude and fix prices or do other actions that impede fair trade also get caught and have sanctions.

Do people break the law where you are? What happens to them when they do?
Your trade laws don't work in practice and no one follows it as no one follows the car speed limits.
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Old 18th July 2014, 08:27 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your trade laws don't work in practice and no one follows it as no one follows the car speed limits.
Again, I'll need evidence for your tin foil hat assertions. Not simply you repeating it.
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Old 18th July 2014, 08:44 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your trade laws don't work in practice and no one follows it as no one follows the car speed limits.
I see -- So you've travelled all over the world and sat in everyone's car and observed them speeding, then? I hate to break this to you, Gaetan, but you're wrong. If you're ever in Winnipeg I could take you for a drive, and you'd notice that there's at least one person on the planet who does observe speed limits.

You're also wrong about the trade laws. They may not be perfect, but they do work somewhat and they are exponentially better than the ludicrously unrealistic system that you would put in its place.

Yes, it's nice to get things a little bit cheaper. That's what haggling is all about -- With most big-ticket consumer goods, it's possible (and even expected) to negotiate with the seller and get the price lowered or "extras" added to the product. I recently purchased a new professional-grade musical instrument and was offered a discount of several hundred dollars by the vendor. That said, the original price of the instrument was already lower than a rival model at another store, and I probably could have found a lightly-used instrument online for even less. Why buy new? For the warranty, and the pleasure of having a brand new instrument.

It isn't all about the bottom line, Gaetan. People do like their material possessions, often for emotional reasons rather than logical ones. No matter how hard you try, you will almost certainly not be able to eliminate that aspect of the problem.
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Old 18th July 2014, 08:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
I recently purchased a new professional-grade musical instrument and was offered a discount of several hundred dollars by the vendor.
It's only mean that i am right, the discount he made to you only means that his margin of profit at the beginning was very high.
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Old 18th July 2014, 09:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It's only mean that i am right, the discount he made to you only means that his margin of profit at the beginning was very high.
Nope, try again. That wasn't what you were arguing.
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It's only mean that i am right, the discount he made to you only means that his margin of profit at the beginning was very high.
Well, obviously it wasn't enough to deter Me from buying the instrument as I was planning to pay the undiscounted price before I was offered a discount.

As I said, Gaetan, this is not just about getting the lowest price -- or free -- for absolutely everything. Those things have to exist in order for one to buy them, and in your no-money fantasy realm there wouldn't be any craftsmen machining exotic hardwoods and aligning keys and springs and other things in order to produce quality musical instruments. I'd be lucky if I could find even a mediocre box of reeds, and would probably have to put on a pair of Wellington boots and go mucking about in a swamp Myself in search of appropriate reed stock to cut.
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Old 27th July 2014, 11:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They are all the same price,
No - You failed to assimilate my post, and COMPLETELY FAILED to address the argument. To be specific, locally I can get a gallon of skim milk anywhere from $2.68 to $3.28 (a ~20% delta) Your "same price"/(ergo no competition) argument is a non-starter in the world of factual evidence. I can show similar comparative differences on cars, prime rib or most anything else. NO ONE can argue that $2.68 an $3.28 are the "same price", that's massively counterfactual stupidity.

Quote:
it is because they offer different things, different goods, different quality, different market, different price, same market same price.
OF COURSE they do - that's the definition of competition - right ? I offer a gallon of Milk at $2.68 an carry it to your car, and the other vendor offers at $3.28 and no frills. What part of this is mysterious to you ?

Quote:
And, by the way, it is not customers who dictate the prices, the price of capitalist goods is made by the colleages of the spiritual father of money and capitalism, Satan, all prices: barley, iron, alluminium, gold is the same, it is world wide the same price.
Let me translate that into rational-speak -
"Quack-quack-quack I hate/mis-understand capitalism, but still OWN lots of self-righteous HATE. I'm RIGHT AND AN INTOLERANT BIGOT.

You FAIL massively to understand markets.; both suppliers and consumers evolve prices interactively. This, "it is not customers who dictate the prices" is exactly correct and proper; NEITHER supply nor consumer can DICTATE prices, but thanks for the childish moronic half-wit misunderstanding of how markets work. POINT1: All free market transactions are VOLUNTARY; no one dictates anything. If you want dictates; then look to your totalitarian POV wrt Government,

Last edited by stevea; 28th July 2014 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:06 PM   #49
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Gaetan, you need to form a new plan. Your no money world and money redistribution plans have so many holes in them that they cannot even hold a cup of water anymore.

You may have to summon djinns and genies to help the "poors".
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Old 29th October 2014, 02:09 PM   #50
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What would you think to make your country a country without money. You could pay what you import with the income of what we export. Inside the country you could live without money, other countries could joint you and you could have exchange without money with them. Don't you think the use of money is stupid and advantage only rich who can afford everythings leaving the majority with debts and poverty.
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Old 29th October 2014, 03:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What would you think to make your country a country without money. You could pay what you import with the income of what we export. Inside the country you could live without money, other countries could joint you and you could have exchange without money with them. Don't you think the use of money is stupid and advantage only rich who can afford everythings leaving the majority with debts and poverty.
How do I make exchanges without money?

Let's say that my job is to make and test video games. I need food, so I go to a farmer. He doesn't play video games. How do I get food?
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Old 29th October 2014, 04:39 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
How do I make exchanges without money?

Let's say that my job is to make and test video games. I need food, so I go to a farmer. He doesn't play video games. How do I get food?
There is no need of direct exchange, all exchange are indirect, you fix video game for someone who'll fix something for the farmer in return and so on, so he'll be fix by someone by one way or the other, so he'll may be fix by the million'th in return.
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Old 29th October 2014, 07:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your trade laws don't work in practice and no one follows it as no one follows the car speed limits.
You've really built a straw man out of capitalism. I don't think you get how it actually works.
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Old 30th October 2014, 06:02 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no need of direct exchange, all exchange are indirect, you fix video game for someone who'll fix something for the farmer in return and so on, so he'll be fix by someone by one way or the other, so he'll may be fix by the million'th in return.
Of course, before I consider doing anything for you the first question I am going to ask is "what have you done for anybody lately?" (and make sure you have 5 independent witnesses who can verify your answer).
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Old 30th October 2014, 06:35 AM   #55
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Why are any of you even bothering? Are you just not familiar with Gaetan and what he actually thinks? Discussion does no good. He needs a therapist, and heavy medication. And no, that's not hyperbole, nor is it meant as an insult.
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Old 30th October 2014, 10:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no need of direct exchange, all exchange are indirect, you fix video game for someone who'll fix something for the farmer in return and so on, so he'll be fix by someone by one way or the other, so he'll may be fix by the million'th in return.
Ad freeloaders will also get food and supplies because they can always "say" they have worked.

Eventually the farmer will run out of supplies and will realize that he got screwed because his stuff never got fixed by the freeloaders. Next cycle of crops, the farmer demands an exchange that he sees as a equal trade.
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Old 30th October 2014, 01:23 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Ad freeloaders will also get food and supplies because they can always "say" they have worked.

Eventually the farmer will run out of supplies and will realize that he got screwed because his stuff never got fixed by the freeloaders. Next cycle of crops, the farmer demands an exchange that he sees as a equal trade.
The people you made the most benefit in your life are the one who work for you for free or almost, then you can't assume this will change because there is a natural an obviously tendency to work for what people need for free.

Last edited by Gaetan; 30th October 2014 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 30th October 2014, 02:26 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The people you made the most benefit in your life are the one who work for you for free or almost, then you can't assume this will change because there is a natural an obviously tendency to work for what people need for free.
You are incorrect and you supply no evidence.
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Old 30th October 2014, 03:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
You are incorrect and you supply no evidence.
Mutual aid is natural among species and this has been proved by studies, what is not natural is the use of money which have been imposed by Kings and dictators to take advantage of people.
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Old 30th October 2014, 05:17 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Mutual aid is natural among species and this has been proved by studies, what is not natural is the use of money which have been imposed by Kings and dictators to take advantage of people.
No it's not. Ever see a lion hunt a herd of gazelles? When the lions catch one, the rest run away.

People can take advantage of others even without money. If I own the only water well in town, I have a lot of leverage.

Money just makes exchange easier. I currently pay for my water with money. That's easier than trading in 4 apples, 3 chickens and a cow for a month's supply of water.
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Old 30th October 2014, 05:23 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Mutual aid is natural among species and this has been proved by studies, what is not natural is the use of money which have been imposed by Kings and dictators to take advantage of people.
Is it? Explain parasites. Or viruses. Or bacteria.
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Old 31st October 2014, 12:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are any of you even bothering?
I don't - usually. I know that Gaetan is just a troll who simply repeats his POV to any and every response he gets.

Sometimes however, I can't resist pointing out what a hypocrite he is.
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Old 31st October 2014, 10:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't - usually. I know that Gaetan is just a troll who simply repeats his POV to any and every response he gets.

Sometimes however, I can't resist pointing out what a hypocrite he is.
The interesting thing is that Gaetan truly seems to believe what he is advocating. Even though it goes against basic logic and common sense.
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Old 31st October 2014, 12:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The interesting thing is that Gaetan truly seems to believe what he is advocating. Even though it goes against basic logic and common sense.
The use of money is not common sence and have no sense at all, it is not any sense to count every thing of what is done, to have to consume to keep the system going. It is an establish custom but not of any sense.
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Old 31st October 2014, 12:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
No it's not. Ever see a lion hunt a herd of gazelles? When the lions catch one, the rest run away.

People can take advantage of others even without money. If I own the only water well in town, I have a lot of leverage.

Money just makes exchange easier. I currently pay for my water with money. That's easier than trading in 4 apples, 3 chickens and a cow for a month's supply of water.
Even plants use mutual aid, a plant attacked alert others plants in the venicity, this have been proved.

Last edited by Gaetan; 31st October 2014 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 31st October 2014, 01:25 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Even plants use mutual aid, a plant attacked alert others plants in the venicity, this have been proved.
Proved by who or what? When a cow starts eating grass, the nearby grass gets alerted so it can run away?
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Old 31st October 2014, 01:29 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The use of money is not common sence and have no sense at all, it is not any sense to count every thing of what is done, to have to consume to keep the system going. It is an establish custom but not of any sense.
The advance of society is because of money. In the dark ages, I would trade you a fish for some vegetables and you might give me firewood for a chicken.
It's okay for survival but for society to advance we needed money. If not, how would you build a house? Trade 97 cows, 46 chickens and 5 barrels of grain?

Money also allows us to save resources so we don't have to work every day. Some days I can relax and use money to purchase food. If not I would have to hunt and gather food daily.
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Old 31st October 2014, 03:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Proved by who or what? When a cow starts eating grass, the nearby grass gets alerted so it can run away?
Actually oddly true. Plants being grazed release chemicals which not only make themselves unpalatable to eat, but which will also provoke the same response in neighbouring plants which have not yet been grazed.

It's an evolutionary adaptation to prevent the death of the plants. The herbivore response has been to evolve to graze on a plant briefly then move on, not to the next one, but one a little way over yonder.

Regardless of that, it has nothing to do with Gaetan's actual contention.

Prediction: Gaetan will attempt to use this as proof that money is not required despite the fact that it is unrelated. If one were to allow this pointless attempt to apply behaviours of one species to another, one might just as well contend that my wife should bite off my head and consume my body for sustenance of herself and our offspring while still performing the conjugal act. If it's good enough for the preying mantis then why not us. After all, it's only natural, right?
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Old 31st October 2014, 06:34 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Proved by who or what? When a cow starts eating grass, the nearby grass gets alerted so it can run away?
I am not the teacher of your ignorance.
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Old 31st October 2014, 06:43 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The advance of society is because of money. In the dark ages, I would trade you a fish for some vegetables and you might give me firewood for a chicken.
It's okay for survival but for society to advance we needed money. If not, how would you build a house? Trade 97 cows, 46 chickens and 5 barrels of grain?

Money also allows us to save resources so we don't have to work every day. Some days I can relax and use money to purchase food. If not I would have to hunt and gather food daily.
Money to pay for what you need is a selfish method to ack, it can't be an advance of a societe. In another way it stop the societe from growing faster in technology by keeping discoveries secret and not in use for others for selfish profit reason, we discussed about it before.
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Old 31st October 2014, 07:01 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money to pay for what you need is a selfish method to ack, it can't be an advance of a societe. In another way it stop the societe from growing faster in technology by keeping discoveries secret and not in use for others for selfish profit reason, we discussed about it before.
No, you asserted it before without any evidence to back up your insane notion. You're still incorrect.

When will you start acknowledging the points that demolish your arguments?
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Old 31st October 2014, 10:48 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am not the teacher of your ignorance.
True - but only because nobody is listening to you.
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Old 1st November 2014, 01:06 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money to pay for what you need is a selfish method to ack, it can't be an advance of a societe. In another way it stop the societe from growing faster in technology by keeping discoveries secret and not in use for others for selfish profit reason, we discussed about it before.
It's funny how you take something very rational (having money) and then argue that it's selfish.

Yes, there are inequities in society with money distribution but it's still better that a society with no money. I wouldn't want to work every day to be able to eat. I would rather work to earn money 5 days a week and be able to use money to buy supplies. If not, I would have to hunt for food and gather water and other necessities daily to survive.

Money is good.
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Old 1st November 2014, 10:51 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
It's funny how you take something very rational (having money) and then argue that it's selfish.
Money is good.
You say it is rationnal but it is not, I don't see something rationnal in taking count everything we do, you are accustom to do it but it is not rationnal. The use of money is not an advance in the community but it is a selfish method to act. See this exemple:

There were 4 kids playing basketball together and their school teacher wanted to test if they learned their lesson. He gave 2 chocolat bars to 1 kid and 2 bars to an other kid. One of them share his extra bar with his partner and the other kid kept his bars for him and began to eat one. His Partner being hungry ask him to trade his extra bar for his hat, he said no because he had one but he accepted to trade it for some money. Then as you see money is just a way to ease trade for an egoist.

Last edited by Gaetan; 1st November 2014 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 1st November 2014, 11:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You say it is rationnal but it is not, I don't see something rationnal in taking count everything we do, you are accustom to do it but it is not rationnal. The use of money is not an advance in the community but it is a selfish method to act. See this exemple:

There were 4 kids playing basketball together and their school teacher wanted to test if they learned their lesson. He gave 2 chocolat bars to 1 kid and 2 bars to an other kid. One of them share his extra bar with his partner and the other kid kept his bars for him and began to eat one. His Partner being hungry ask him to trade his extra bar for his hat, he said no because he had one but he accepted to trade it for some money. Then as you see money is just a way to ease trade for an egoist.
You just proved that money is vital. The kid didn't want or need a hat so he was able to get money for his candy bar and he can use the money for something he wants instead of a hat.
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Old 1st November 2014, 03:07 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You say it is rationnal but it is not, I don't see something rationnal in taking count everything we do, you are accustom to do it but it is not rationnal. The use of money is not an advance in the community but it is a selfish method to act. See this exemple:

There were 4 kids playing basketball together and their school teacher wanted to test if they learned their lesson. He gave 2 chocolat bars to 1 kid and 2 bars to an other kid. One of them share his extra bar with his partner and the other kid kept his bars for him and began to eat one. His Partner being hungry ask him to trade his extra bar for his hat, he said no because he had one but he accepted to trade it for some money. Then as you see money is just a way to ease trade for an egoist.
This is an excellent example of why money is vital to the efficient functioning of society! Thanks!
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Old 1st November 2014, 11:50 PM   #77
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Dang. So the chocolate is evil because somebody offered to trade with it? We should ban chocolate? Is that the lesson?
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Old 2nd November 2014, 08:03 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Dang. So the chocolate is evil because somebody offered to trade with it? We should ban chocolate? Is that the lesson?
I assumed the basketball was evil.
Or maybe it was the teacher.
Am I ok to be wearing this hat?

What lesson was the teacher testing had been learned?

Last edited by ComfySlippers; 2nd November 2014 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 10:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
I assumed the basketball was evil.
Or maybe it was the teacher.
Am I ok to be wearing this hat?

What lesson was the teacher testing had been learned?
That generosity is not assumed and trade can be an equal sign of kindness? After all, one kid learned to share, one kid learned to expect to be given stuff for no reason,and two learned to come to an understanding where neither was taken advantage of. One kid learned an awful lesson and will expect to be given candy when another recieves it,
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Old 12th November 2014, 11:17 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
This is an excellent example of why money is vital to the efficient functioning of society! Thanks!
Exactly! Gaetan did an excellent job of proving that money is indeed valuable.
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