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Old 5th October 2014, 09:33 AM   #161
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Some more information on how the Australian Taxation Office regards bitcoin:
https://www.ato.gov.au/general/gen/t...cally-bitcoin/

Basically they say that "Bitcoin is neither money nor a foreign currency" and "Transacting with bitcoins is akin to a barter arrangement, with similar tax consequences" ie that bitcoins for businesses are subject to GST (similar to VAT).
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Old 5th October 2014, 10:44 AM   #162
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Down to 297 now.
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Old 5th October 2014, 10:45 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There doesn't appear to be any clear trigger but a Forbes Magazine article makes a couple of interesting (though not necessarily definitive) points:

One is the ".........old adage that people tend to overestimate the possibility of technology in the short run but wildly underestimate it in the long run" and the other is that the more businesses that accept bitcoin as payment, the more businesses that want to to cash out those bitcoins (putting downward pressure on the bitcoin price).
Interesting. I wonder if the speculators will panic and dump their BTC for cash, then, if they feel they'll never see that money back.
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Old 5th October 2014, 10:57 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Interesting. I wonder if the speculators will panic and dump their BTC for cash, then, if they feel they'll never see that money back.
If you are referring to the "early adopters" (as distinct from those who jumped on the bandwagon a year or so ago) then I doubt it.

Don't forget that the Forbes article is claiming (without proof) that this is a short term phenomenon.
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Old 5th October 2014, 11:51 AM   #165
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Bitcoin - Part 2

There are obviously a couple of serious proponents of BitCoin in this thread.
Perhaps it's due to my age but I can't help seeing this, yes sort-term phenomenon, for what it is.

Perhaps some people are too young, or have forgotten, to know what happened in the 90's and early 00's when all the people saw the internet as being a quick way to make a buck. It was a disaster.

Dot-Com.Bubble
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble


BitCoin is in no way a currency, it's an ill-advised investment, designed to entice the gullible and make profit for the people at the top.

It never has been, nor ever will be, a currency in the correct sense of the word in the modern world.

It differs in no way to Alex Jones trying to convince his rubes that investing in Gold is prudent, (whilst he profits from his advertisers by saying so).

It matters not if eBay, or whoever, "accept" them, there is no risk whatsoever to those organisations. They will receive £'s or $'s regardless. They will have legal guarantees in place to ensure that, with these third party merchant account handlers, they receive real money.

For the average person on the street there are no such legal safeguards in place.

Unless you want to buy something dodgy on CraigsList that is.

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Old 5th October 2014, 12:55 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you are referring to the "early adopters" (as distinct from those who jumped on the bandwagon a year or so ago) then I doubt it.
I wasn't talking about a specific group, except those who purchased BTC at a higher price than it is now, in order to make a profit from the speculation.

Why do you doubt it ?
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Old 5th October 2014, 01:13 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wasn't talking about a specific group, except those who purchased BTC at a higher price than it is now, in order to make a profit from the speculation.
I'm one of those. Not panicking at all, more like anticipation. But then again, my investment is around 0.2 BTC. I went in being comfortable with the possibility of losing it all, it is a high risk investment after all. Since then I had a few relatively easy and fast transactions I couldn't have otherwise done, so I'm content already. So now I'm thinking I'll probably never cash it out, just use it if I want to buy something.
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Old 5th October 2014, 01:25 PM   #168
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Good to hear, Teapot, but I was looking more for expectations/statistics than individual anecdotes.
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Old 5th October 2014, 02:52 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Good to hear, Teapot, but I was looking more for expectations/statistics than individual anecdotes.
Oh, right. Well we did have a resident market analyst/forecaster here I think. Otherwise we'll have to wait and see.
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Old 5th October 2014, 03:30 PM   #170
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Back up to 311.
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Old 5th October 2014, 06:51 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Dot-Com.Bubble
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble


BitCoin is in no way a currency, it's an ill-advised investment, designed to entice the gullible and make profit for the people at the top.
  • What do you mean by "currency"?
  • Who are these people "at the top"?
  • Are the people at the top the ones who designed bitcoin?
  • Did they pay somebody to design bitcoin?
  • How did they mastermind the appearance of bitcoin exchanges and ATMS?
  • What aspect of the design of bitcoin makes it an enticement for the gullible?
  • Why compare bitcoin to the dot-com bubble instead of a more successful investment?
  • Why are you recycling arguments that have been done to death in the old thread?
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Old 6th October 2014, 01:16 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Back up to 311.
So it's down about 15% in a week. I wonder how the people at Coinbase feel, watching their hoard of BTC devalue by the hour.
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Old 6th October 2014, 02:59 AM   #173
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And back up to 330. If it goes back to 380 by the end of the day, I'd answer your question by saying "pretty good, actually".
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Old 6th October 2014, 05:35 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And back up to 330. If it goes back to 380 by the end of the day, I'd answer your question by saying "pretty good, actually".
Well, considering it was over $500 when they announced the eBay thing, I'd say maybe "better" but not necessarily "good".
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Old 6th October 2014, 11:32 AM   #175
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To pick up the thread of discussion from the silver thread, my position is that silver is a better investment than BTC because silver is tangible; its value will never go to zero because there will always be some demand for silver, whether for industrial or jewelry uses. That is not to say that silver is necessarily a good investment, but it is better than BTC. There is nothing whatsoever to stop the value of BTC from going to zero if demand falls off or a competing cryptocurrency emerges. It has no intrinsic value.
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Old 6th October 2014, 11:33 AM   #176
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$334 now. Down about 30% since the eBay announcement.

www.preev.com
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Old 6th October 2014, 03:40 PM   #177
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FWIW, my friend sold all of his bitcoin, realized a $9+ million dollar gain, 3000%+ return (before taxes). He thinks the fact that both Russia and China made it illegal, plus the marketplace stagnating are headwinds.
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Old 6th October 2014, 05:26 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
FWIW, my friend sold all of his bitcoin, realized a $9+ million dollar gain
Uh-huh, sure. Just like that.
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Old 6th October 2014, 07:56 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
To pick up the thread of discussion from the silver thread, my position is that silver is a better investment than BTC because silver is tangible; its value will never go to zero because there will always be some demand for silver, whether for industrial or jewelry uses. That is not to say that silver is necessarily a good investment, but it is better than BTC. There is nothing whatsoever to stop the value of BTC from going to zero if demand falls off or a competing cryptocurrency emerges. It has no intrinsic value. shiny.
ftfy.

Now it is consistent with what you said in the other thread.
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Old 7th October 2014, 12:16 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
To pick up the thread of discussion from the silver thread, my position is that silver is a better investment than BTC because silver is tangible; its value will never go to zero because there will always be some demand for silver, whether for industrial or jewelry uses. That is not to say that silver is necessarily a good investment, but it is better than BTC. There is nothing whatsoever to stop the value of BTC from going to zero if demand falls off or a competing cryptocurrency emerges. It has no intrinsic value.
Isn't that the case with all fiat currency? After all a dollar has no intrinsic value. By that logic you should be a gold/silver bug.
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Old 7th October 2014, 12:36 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Isn't that the case with all fiat currency? After all a dollar has no intrinsic value. By that logic you should be a gold/silver bug.
The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, which has both taxing power and big ol' printing presses; it has the means to make good on its obligations. Bitcoin, as a wag noted in the old thread, is backed by the full faith and credit of the international drug trade. There is no taxing power behind it, and it is inherently deflationary (or it would be if people were using it to any great extent).

I'll keep my USD, thanks very much.
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Old 7th October 2014, 12:43 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, which has both taxing power and big ol' printing presses; it has the means to make good on its obligations. Bitcoin, as a wag noted in the old thread, is backed by the full faith and credit of the international drug trade. There is no taxing power behind it, and it is inherently deflationary (or it would be if people were using it to any great extent).

I'll keep my USD, thanks very much.
That was some great goal post moving. You said intrinsic value, which it does not have.

Don't have enough time left in my break to address this properly. Maybe someone else will.
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Old 7th October 2014, 01:14 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
That was some great goal post moving. You said intrinsic value, which it does not have.

Don't have enough time left in my break to address this properly. Maybe someone else will.
I can use a dollar to shine my shoes. I can't even do that with a Bitcoin.
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Old 7th October 2014, 01:56 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Isn't that the case with all fiat currency? After all a dollar has no intrinsic value. By that logic you should be a gold/silver bug.
The odds of the value of a fiat currency going to zero is pretty small, don't you think ?
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Old 7th October 2014, 03:25 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The odds of the value of a fiat currency going to zero is pretty small, don't you think ?
In the short term definitely. Historically, no. Further the value of several currencies have fluctuated wildly over time similar to bitcoin.

jhunter tried framing bitcoin as having the fault of no intrinsic value, which is why silver is better than bitcoin. I merely pointed out that by that logic gold/silver is also better than any fiat currency because all fiat currency has no intrinsic value. Then goalposts were moved to avoid addressing that.

All I want is for jhunter to admit that they moved the goalposts in order to avoid conceding the point that bitcoin having no intrinsic value is not a fault and is totally irrelevant. Then if jhunter wants to switch to discussing the role faith and acceptance plays in making a currency with no intrinsic value valuable, that's fine.
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Old 7th October 2014, 03:42 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
In the short term definitely. Historically, no.
The only way that the USD can drop to zero is if the state fails. If that happens, the value of the dollar will not be your biggest problem.
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Old 7th October 2014, 05:14 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
All I want is for jhunter to admit that they moved the goalposts in order to avoid conceding the point that bitcoin having no intrinsic value is not a fault and is totally irrelevant. Then if jhunter wants to switch to discussing the role faith and acceptance plays in making a currency with no intrinsic value valuable, that's fine.
But bitcoin having no intrinsic value is a fault, and is entirely relevant. If its value goes to zero, its holders have no recourse whatsoever. In the extremely unlikely event that the USD goes to zero, I can still use those bills as toilet paper, or burn them for warmth, even leaving aside the faith and acceptance issues.

You and the other bitbugs continually try to twist my words and play silly semantic games in order to avoid discussing the serious problems with BTC, such as its 75% drop in value from the peak and the ongoing issue of theft.

BTC clearly is not ready for prime time. Its flaws are not beyond repair but as presently constructed it is a poor choice both as an investment and as a "currency".
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Old 7th October 2014, 07:27 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
But bitcoin having no intrinsic value is a fault, and is entirely relevant. If its value goes to zero, its holders have no recourse whatsoever. In the extremely unlikely event that the USD goes to zero, I can still use those bills as toilet paper, or burn them for warmth, even leaving aside the faith and acceptance issues.
The USD has "intrinsic" value because you can wipe your arse with it? That's even sillier than saying that silver has "intrinsic" value because it is shiny. (As a matter of fact, most USDs aren't even printed - they are just numbers in a bank account. So you can't even do that with them).

There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value. Something is valuable only if people believe it is valuable. That something might have uses other than as a medium of exchange doesn't give it this fictitious "intrinsic value".
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Old 7th October 2014, 10:05 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The USD has "intrinsic" value because you can wipe your arse with it? That's even sillier than saying that silver has "intrinsic" value because it is shiny. (As a matter of fact, most USDs aren't even printed - they are just numbers in a bank account. So you can't even do that with them).

There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value. Something is valuable only if people believe it is valuable. That something might have uses other than as a medium of exchange doesn't give it this fictitious "intrinsic value".
We can dispense with this silliness right now. You and I both know the USD isn't going anywhere. It's the world's reserve currency, and it's going to stay that way. We here in the US like it that way, we intend to keep it that way, and our policymakers will do whatever is necessary to ensure that it stays that way. Now stop trying to dodge the issues of BTC's problems and meet them head-on.
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Old 7th October 2014, 10:43 PM   #190
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OK, I concede the problems you have raised with Bitcoin:
  • It will never be the world's reserve currency.
  • It isn't shiny.
  • You can't use it as toilet paper.
Happy?
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Old 7th October 2014, 11:05 PM   #191
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duplicate post.

(caused by a JREF style time-out error).
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Old 8th October 2014, 07:01 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
OK, I concede the problems you have raised with Bitcoin:
  • It will never be the world's reserve currency.
  • It isn't shiny.
  • You can't use it as toilet paper.
Happy?
You're getting there. Now if you could just address the problem of BTC losing three-quarters of its value in the last year, and the problem of one-eighth of all BTC ever mined being stolen, we'd really be going places.
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Old 8th October 2014, 08:09 AM   #193
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There's no need. I have already discussed those issues ad-nauseum.

Isn't that why you keep making up silly stuff now?
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Old 8th October 2014, 08:19 AM   #194
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Come on, let's play nice, now. It's not as if this is a religious issue... is it ?
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Old 8th October 2014, 08:21 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Come on, let's play nice, now. It's not as if this is a religious issue... is it ?
Perhaps for some of us, it is...
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Old 8th October 2014, 08:25 AM   #196
Argumemnon
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You're not usually like this, jhunter. How is that a reasonable answer to my request for civility ?
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Old 8th October 2014, 08:49 AM   #197
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Come on, let's play nice, now. It's not as if this is a religious issue... is it ?
Sometimes I wonder.

You could make some arguably true statements against bitcoin like:
  • Bitcoin is not especially useful as a currency. or
  • Bitcoin is not especially useful as a store of value.
Unfortunately, many of the anti-bitcoin zealots are not content to leave it at that.

According to some, it is a giant conspiracy concocted between the Illuminati and psychic computer programmers to fleece gullible old grandmothers out of their life savings. What we see today was all planned in minute detail years ago before the first line of code for bitcoin was ever written.

Others put their Jedi mind powers to work and predict with the certainty of an angelic prophet that bitcoin will suddenly disappear without a trace (also leaving the grandmothers out of pocket).

And just when you think the arguments against bitcoin couldn't get any sillier .................

AFAIK this is still a skeptics forum and I reserve the right to dismiss "out of this world" arguments entirely.
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Old 8th October 2014, 09:09 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
According to some, it is a giant conspiracy concocted between the Illuminati and psychic computer programmers to fleece gullible old grandmothers out of their life savings.
That seemed very likely early on, but now I think it's very unlikely, as something would have crashed the market when it peaked.
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Old 8th October 2014, 09:33 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're not usually like this, jhunter. How is that a reasonable answer to my request for civility ?
You know, you're absolutely right. I should know better, being a moderator and all. I apologize for my tone.

Quote:
You could make some arguably true statements against bitcoin like:
Bitcoin is not especially useful as a currency. or
Bitcoin is not especially useful as a store of value.
To my mind, the bolded are inarguably true. BTC is extremely limited in its utility as a "currency", the recent developments with eBay and Dell notwithstanding, and any purported "store of value" where the value stored can decline 30% in the space of a couple of weeks is not especially useful, to put it mildly.
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Old 8th October 2014, 09:42 AM   #200
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So who is going to keep storing it if it doesn't hold a value?
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