ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bitcoin

Reply
Old 16th December 2014, 07:27 AM   #281
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why?
Who needs a product with all BTC's problems with theft and value instability when there are secure and stably-valued alternative e-payment methods available? BTC's big selling point seems to be anonymity, which no doubt appeals to a certain sector but it isn't a big draw to most people.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 07:28 AM   #282
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 65,993
Down to 336$.
__________________
<Roar!>
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 07:39 AM   #283
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Interesting that the collapse of the ruble doesn't seem to be having any positive effect on BTC.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 07:51 AM   #284
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 65,993
The only thing that seems to have an effect on BTC is quantum fluctuations. I swear the damn thing makes no sense.
__________________
<Roar!>
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 08:44 AM   #285
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Who needs a product with all BTC's problems with theft and value instability when there are secure and stably-valued alternative e-payment methods available? BTC's big selling point seems to be anonymity, which no doubt appeals to a certain sector but it isn't a big draw to most people.
Give me a wallet address and I could transfer bitcoins to you within minutes without knowing your name, sex or the continent you reside in. Can you do that with apple pay?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 09:21 AM   #286
gabeygoat
Graduate Poster
 
gabeygoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Give me a wallet address and I could transfer bitcoins to you within minutes without knowing your name, sex or the continent you reside in.
Originally Posted by Almo View Post
__________________
"May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq
gabeygoat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 09:38 AM   #287
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
So you fell for Almo's propaganda pic?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2014, 06:46 PM   #288
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,044
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
BTC's big selling point seems to be anonymity, which no doubt appeals to a certain sector but it isn't a big draw to most people.
There's also the fact that your money isn't in the hands of big business, banks, government, ect. Without your private key, nobody can take your Bitcoin from you, freeze your account or reverse a deposit made into your account.

These things can be done with just about all other forms of electronic accounts.

(The ability to keep your private key secure is a separate issue.)
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 08:50 AM   #289
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
There's also the fact that your money isn't in the hands of big business, banks, government, ect. Without your private key, nobody can take your Bitcoin from you, freeze your account or reverse a deposit made into your account.

These things can be done with just about all other forms of electronic accounts.

(The ability to keep your private key secure is a separate issue.)
You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 09:21 AM   #290
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
Mt Gox was taking bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 11:41 AM   #292
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
So which is it? Did Mt Gox take bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent or did they simply lose bitcoins that their customers had entrusted them with?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 11:47 AM   #293
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So which is it? Did Mt Gox take bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent or did they simply lose bitcoins that their customers had entrusted them with?
Wareyin's post clearly said "somebody"; whether that "somebody" was inside or outside of Mt. Gox isn't clear. The loss puts the lie to the notion that BTC is somehow safer and more secure than other repositories of financial value.

And, whether the coins were "lost" or "stolen" is a distinction without a difference to the people who lost $450 million, now isn't it?
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 11:47 AM   #294
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,564
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
Bitcoin exchanges have been hacked. That's why banks are better. They've never been hacked.

Bitcoin exchanges have had employees do immoral things to benefit themselves or the exchanges at the expense of their customers. That's why banks are better. They've never done that.

Plus bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges have been around as long as banks so it's not like these exchanges were relatively new territory where mistakes would happen and improvements would be made over time.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.

Last edited by The_Animus; 17th December 2014 at 12:00 PM.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 12:13 PM   #295
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Bitcoin exchanges have been hacked. That's why banks are better. They've never been hacked.
There are legal protections in place for depositors whose bank accounts are hacked. For BTC holders, not so much.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 12:21 PM   #296
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Wareyin's post clearly said "somebody"; whether that "somebody" was inside or outside of Mt. Gox isn't clear.
So which is it? Did "somebody" take bitcoins out of people's wallets without their consent or did "somebody" simply lose/steal bitcoins that customers had entrusted Mt Gox with?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 17th December 2014 at 12:24 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 12:42 PM   #297
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Here's the most recent info I could find about the Gox unpleasantness; apparently Kraken has stepped up to handle the liquidation.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/...uidate-mt-gox/

I'd guess that the creditors might, if they are fortunate, see 10 cents on the dollar. Gox still holds about 200K BTC, but of course any effort to liquidate that many coins would drive the price to near zero.

And, to get back to psionl0's post, it appears that the bulk of the coins were stolen, i.e. removed from accounts without the account holder's consent. This contradicts the assertion made in post 288, which was that no one can take your BTC from you if they do not have your private key. Clearly, thieves can and have taken BTC from account holders.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 12:57 PM   #298
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
This contradicts the assertion made in post 288, which was that no one can take your BTC from you if they do not have your private key. Clearly, thieves can and have taken BTC from account holders.
Trusting somebody else with your money (in whatever form it takes) always has some risks.

However, in spite of the unfortunate use of the word "account" instead of "wallet", Brian-M was never referring to bitcoin exchanges and, as the highlighted section shows, you know this all too well. It is just a feeble attempt to derail the discussion.

The fact remains that provided you take sensible security precautions with your wallet, nobody can ever take your bitcoins away from you without your consent. They can only try to persuade you to hand them over.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 17th December 2014 at 12:58 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 03:54 PM   #299
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,044
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
There's also the fact that your money isn't in the hands of big business, banks, government, ect. Without your private key, nobody can take your Bitcoin from you, freeze your account or reverse a deposit made into your account.

These things can be done with just about all other forms of electronic accounts.

(The ability to keep your private key secure is a separate issue.)
You might check with the Mt. Gox account holders about that.
I think you'll find that Mt. Gox had the private keys to all the wallets containing the Bitcoins in their customer's accounts.

Keeping your Bitcoins in a trading account is the same thing as putting your money in the hands of a business, and as a result the security advantage of Bitcoin is lost.

(Of course, unless you're mining bitcoin or selling products in exchange for bitcoin, or happen to know someone who has bitcoin they're willing to sell for cash, you pretty much have to go through a trading account to get bitcoin. Similar situation for selling your bitcoin. Unless you know someone interested in buying you'll need to use an exchange as well.)

ETA:
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
And, to get back to psionl0's post, it appears that the bulk of the coins were stolen, i.e. removed from accounts without the account holder's consent. This contradicts the assertion made in post 288, which was that no one can take your BTC from you if they do not have your private key. Clearly, thieves can and have taken BTC from account holders.
Are you saying that the thieves stole the bitcoins without either getting hold of the private keys for the wallets in which they were stored, or by some form of indirect access to the private keys (such as by ordering a computer with access to the private keys to transfer the bitcoins to a different wallet)?
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim

Last edited by Brian-M; 17th December 2014 at 04:04 PM.
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 04:30 PM   #300
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Are you saying that the thieves stole the bitcoins without either getting hold of the private keys for the wallets in which they were stored, or by some form of indirect access to the private keys (such as by ordering a computer with access to the private keys to transfer the bitcoins to a different wallet)?
Yes. Google "transaction malleability".
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 07:03 PM   #301
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,044
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Are you saying that the thieves stole the bitcoins without either getting hold of the private keys for the wallets in which they were stored, or by some form of indirect access to the private keys (such as by ordering a computer with access to the private keys to transfer the bitcoins to a different wallet)?
Yes. Google "transaction malleability".
Googled.

Looks like a form of indirect access to the private key to me. Making it appear as if the transaction didn't go through in order to trick the computers that hold the private keys to use the private keys to make another payment.
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2014, 09:20 PM   #302
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Googled.

Looks like a form of indirect access to the private key to me. Making it appear as if the transaction didn't go through in order to trick the computers that hold the private keys to use the private keys to make another payment.
The "transaction malleability" weakness was fixed in Bitcoin 0.8.

Prior to that, it was possible to duplicate a transaction that was identical in every way but had a different signature. If the second transaction was subsequently confirmed then the first wouldn't be. This could be a problem if you were only checking signatures.

Note that there is nothing automatic about this. The recipient would have to fraudulently claim to have not received the bitcoins and convince the sender to re-send the bitcoins. If the sender's bookkeeping was up to scratch, then they would instantly detect this funny business.

MtGox fell flat on both accounts which is why they were so easily duped into resending bitcoins. Note that exchanges don't have access to anybody's private keys so the only bitcoins at risk were the ones you sent to MtGox - not the ones still in your wallet.

Of course, this is all old hat. I posted about "transaction malleability" way back in February. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=4764). Jhunter1163 is only rehashing these old arguments in order to avoid dealing with post #285.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2014, 12:38 PM   #303
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,564
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
There are legal protections in place for depositors whose bank accounts are hacked. For BTC holders, not so much.
I thought that credit cards were safe, but debit cards aren't as safe.

You can have your identity stolen if your bank gets hacked. Not so with bitcoin.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2014, 05:45 PM   #304
Gulliver Foyle
Thinker
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Or, you could just have a free market in money, without the theft masquerading as central planning. I know. Perish the thought.
Oh yeah, introduce Randian objectivism into the equation. That is just what a barely functional means of exchange mostly used for criminal activities needs.

Fact of the matter is, as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the course of history, for a currency to work and continue it needs a strong backing by a state or other large actor, with a coherent goal for what it is to do and a proper set of policies to manage it. That is why both a) the likes of bitcoin will never be better than a fad (it'll never have the right backing nor the right policy direction) and b) putting the likes of Greenspan (or any other freemarketeer) in charge of a national currency will end in disaster.
Gulliver Foyle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2014, 06:25 PM   #305
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
That is just what a barely functional means of exchange mostly used for criminal activities needs.
Source?

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Fact of the matter is, as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the course of history, for a currency to work and continue it needs a strong backing by a state or other large actor,
Fiat currency might need a regulator but gold never did.

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
with a coherent goal for what it is to do and a proper set of policies to manage it.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2014, 11:32 AM   #306
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
You can have your identity stolen if your bank gets hacked. Not so with bitcoin.
You can get your money back if your bank gets hacked. Not so with bitcoin.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2014, 11:51 AM   #307
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course, this is all old hat. I posted about "transaction malleability" way back in February. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=4764). Jhunter1163 is only rehashing these old arguments in order to avoid dealing with post #285.
All right, then, to address post #285;

No, you probably couldn't do that with Apple Pay, at least not without going to some trouble, but for 99.44% of users, BTC's major selling point (anonymity) simply is not necessary. I don't care if eBay knows my name. I don't care if Amazon knows my name. Hell, I don't care if you know my name. It's John Hunter. I do, however, trust my bank to keep my account information secure, and if they are hacked there are laws in place to make me whole if I do happen to lose money. BTC has none of the protections of banks and apparently more of the risk of theft.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2014, 12:03 PM   #308
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
No, you probably couldn't do that with Apple Pay,
Of course you can't. Apple pay wasn't designed for transfers of money between individuals. It is a system for paying for purchases at either a brick-and-mortar or online store (it doesn't even have its own commodity/currency).

As long as Apple pay and bitcoin serve entirely different functions, it is not possible for one to displace the other. It would be like saying that the invention of the electric light would make electric motors obsolete.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2014, 12:45 PM   #309
Gulliver Foyle
Thinker
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Source?
Seeing as you seem to be fond of posting fanboy pages to "support" your arguments, I'll hold myself to the same criteria here. I just won't bother spamming nonsense.

Quote:
Fiat currency might need a regulator but gold never did.
And next you'll tell me that David Irving is right. Boy, you really do love pulling out your ignorance and waving it in peoples' faces don't you. A big part of why the gold standard was killed off (as a zombie no less) in the mid '30's was that governments finally realised that under the standard there was no way to either regulate the system or control the flow of money to affect fiscal cycles.
Gulliver Foyle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2014, 08:55 PM   #310
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Seeing as you seem to be fond of posting fanboy pages to "support" your arguments, I'll hold myself to the same criteria here. I just won't bother spamming nonsense.



And next you'll tell me that David Irving is right. Boy, you really do love pulling out your ignorance and waving it in peoples' faces don't you. (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)
IOW You can't back up your nonsense so you have decided to attack the arguer instead (that's a rule 12 violation BTW).

Anything else you might have to say about money can similarly be dismissed as personal opinion based on sheer prejudice.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2014, 11:41 AM   #311
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,564
Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
The bet is that Coinbase.com will be hacked (and bitcoins stolen) somewhere between September 2014 and 1 January 2015. The breech must be significant enough to be covered by major media outlets.

If you agree to those terms, I'll take that bet.
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Since any breach would probably make the news, I'll agree. I'll sport the avatar of your choice for a week should that not happen.
About a week left until this bet comes to fruition.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2014, 07:06 PM   #312
AdMan
Penultimate Amazing
 
AdMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
I just noticed that the Bitcoin Bowl (US college American football) is being played tonight. I thought that was pretty funny--just how much more mainstream can you get than sponsoring a college bowl game?
__________________
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
- Voltaire.

Last edited by AdMan; 26th December 2014 at 07:21 PM.
AdMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2014, 01:00 AM   #313
Tippit
Master Poster
 
Tippit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,468
Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
I just noticed that the Bitcoin Bowl (US college American football) is being played tonight. I thought that was pretty funny--just how much more mainstream can you get than sponsoring a college bowl game?
A touchdown highlight from that game made ESPN top 10 as well.
__________________
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."
- Lord Acton
Tippit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2014, 02:17 AM   #314
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
...... for 99.44% of users, BTC's major selling point (anonymity) simply is not necessary.
That is of course a 100% made up statistic.

It is not the anonymity of bitcoin that matters as much as the convenience of not having to go through an approvals process. There is no need to apply for a bitcoin account as if you were applying for a passport (ie provide 100 points of photo ID to prove that you are not a criminal who is trying to launder money). You also don't have to wait until some ******* gets back from holidays before dealing with your application.

Anybody can install bitcoin software on their computer and have a wallet set up within minutes and start receiving bitcoins instantly and the only people who's business it is are you and the people you are trading with.

Edited by LashL:  Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by LashL; 2nd January 2015 at 01:25 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2014, 06:54 AM   #315
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is of course a 100% made up statistic.

It is not the anonymity of bitcoin that matters as much as the convenience of not having to go through an approvals process. There is no need to apply for a bitcoin account as if you were applying for a passport (ie provide 100 points of photo ID to prove that you are not a criminal who is trying to launder money). You also don't have to wait until some ******* gets back from holidays before dealing with your application.

Anybody can install bitcoin software on their computer and have a wallet set up within minutes and start receiving bitcoins instantly and the only people who's business it is are you and the people you are trading with.
Put those goalposts back. You've been trumpeting anonymity as a selling point all along; now, when it's developed that a) BTC isn't as anonymous as Bitbugs have been led to believe and b) anonymity doesn't matter to most people anyway, you're moving on to "convenience", ignoring the fact that BTC is far, far less convenient to use than plain old USD.

Last edited by LashL; 2nd January 2015 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Edited to properly mask profanity in quote.
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2014, 06:59 AM   #316
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,531
There is no anonymity in bitcoin. In fact the polar opposite. And we are seeing that coming out in the Silk Road legal proceedings. If dollar bills were as carefully tracked, there could be no graft.
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2014, 10:47 AM   #317
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,312
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Put those goalposts back. You've been trumpeting anonymity as a selling point all along; now, when it's developed that a) BTC isn't as anonymous as Bitbugs have been led to believe and b) anonymity doesn't matter to most people anyway, you're moving on to "convenience", ignoring the fact that BTC is far, far less convenient to use than plain old USD.
How does anything in my post constitute "goalpost shifting"? It is certainly 100% consistent with post #285 - unless you are trying to construct another strawman. I have always pointed out that once someone knows your wallet ID it is a matter of public record how many BTC you have in that wallet.

Another derail fail.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2014, 12:33 PM   #318
remirol
Senior Wrangler
 
remirol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,089
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...ncy-wasbitcoin

There's a surprise.
__________________
Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com
--
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb
remirol is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2014, 01:39 PM   #319
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 25,926
Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
I just noticed that the Bitcoin Bowl (US college American football) is being played tonight. I thought that was pretty funny--just how much more mainstream can you get than sponsoring a college bowl game?
Were people able to buy tickets with Bitcoins?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2014, 03:42 PM   #320
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 24,906
Here are some better investments that BTC over the last year;

http://recode.net/2014/12/28/newspap...tcoin-in-2014/
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:44 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.