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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , hillary clinton , James Comey , presidential candidates

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Old 17th June 2016, 09:45 AM   #281
TheL8Elvis
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Yet he didn't call it criminal, either ...

Your explanation of why ?
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What word do you think the FBI director was objecting to?
Answers to these would be appreciated.
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Old 17th June 2016, 09:47 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
""The privacy interests at stake are high because the government's criminal investigation through which Mr. Pagliano received limited immunity is ongoing and confidential," U.S. District Court Judge Emmet Sullivan wrote in an order issued Tuesday.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...#ixzz4Br5Va8jj
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
Pssh, what do judges know about criminal investigations...
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Old 17th June 2016, 09:49 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Pssh, what do judges know about criminal investigations...
Why don't you ask specifically about this judge ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_G._Sullivan

BTW, is this current case a criminal investigation ?
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Old 17th June 2016, 09:51 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Yes. He wrote the words criminal investigation. The question is why.

Did he assume criminal part, or does the immunity agreement literally say "criminal investigation" ?

We don't know.

We can only assume or infer. Speculation.
Yes, all we know is that a federal judge with 20 years experience used the phrase "criminal investigation". Maybe he was being sloppy, but I'm betting he had good reason.
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Old 17th June 2016, 09:54 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
""The privacy interests at stake are high because the government's criminal investigation through which Mr. Pagliano received limited immunity is ongoing and confidential," U.S. District Court Judge Emmet Sullivan wrote in an order issued Tuesday.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...#ixzz4Br5Va8jj
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Here is a copy of the entire order we have been discussing.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-cont...rder-01363.pdf

He specifically considered the immunity agreement in connection with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Hubbard factors.

Indeed, the privacy interests at stake are high because the government's criminal investigation through which Mr. Pagliano received limited immunity is ongoing and confidential.

Therefore the determination that the FBI was conducting a criminal investigation was critical to his determination of the issues before him.
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Old 17th June 2016, 09:58 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Here is a copy of the entire order we have been discussing.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-cont...rder-01363.pdf

He specifically considered the immunity agreement in connection with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Hubbard factors.

Indeed, the privacy interests at stake are high because the government's criminal investigation through which Mr. Pagliano received limited immunity is ongoing and confidential.

Therefore the determination that the FBI was conducting a criminal investigation was critical to his determination of the issues before him.
That's my reading of it as well.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:02 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Pssh, what do judges know about criminal investigations...
No one's questioning the judge. What is being question is the right wing echosphere playing Internet Lawyer, Judge and Jury. The judge seems like a swell guy.

The question is: What do 16.5, Fudrucker and Bob001 know about criminal investigations. Seems to this interested observer that they're merely very fond of the onerous sounding importance of getting "criminal" in there.

Once again, we have a judge in a civil suit who used it as an adjective. We have a WH press secretary who used it in error. And the ignoble opposition is running around slapping themelves high fives and chest-bumping.

It is so reminiscent of 911 Truthers and their cherry-picking that they should all be embarrassed to see the similarities.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:06 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's my reading of it as well.
Well, if you two agree, that's enough for me you two. Neither of you has shown any background to his motivation. The cited sentence is not stand alone in his ruling, but part of a larger paragraph.

More reasonable minds look at the entire paragraph and see other ways to read it. But that might be because we're not desperately combing through text looking for Smoking Gun Words.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:06 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
No one's questioning the judge. What is being question is the right wing echosphere playing Internet Lawyer, Judge and Jury. The judge seems like a swell guy.

The question is: What do 16.5, Fudrucker and Bob001 know about criminal investigations. Seems to this interested observer that they're merely very fond of the onerous sounding importance of getting "criminal" in there.

Once again, we have a judge in a civil suit who used it as an adjective. We have a WH press secretary who used it in error. And the ignoble opposition is running around slapping themelves high fives and chest-bumping.

It is so reminiscent of 911 Truthers and their cherry-picking that they should all be embarrassed to see the similarities.
you said it so well earlier, "pull it"
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:17 AM   #290
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I guess it comes down to who are you going to believe, some shrillaries, or your own lyin eyes?

"Mr. Pagliano and the government object to disclosure of the
immunity agreement. Indeed, the privacy interests at stake are high because the government's criminal investigation through which Mr. Pagliano received limited immunity is ongoing and confidential. Mr. Pagliano's immunity agreement with the government was filed with the Court by Mr. Pagliano solely to enable the Court to assess the legitimacy of his intent to assert his Fifth Amendment rights in this civil proceeding. The parties shall meet and confer to find a date and time for Mr. Pagliano's deposition prior to the close of discovery. Signed by Judge Emmet G. Sullivan on June 14, 2016. (lcegs4)
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:20 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I guess it comes down to who are you going to believe, some shrillaries, or your own lyin eyes?
Well, I'm certainly not going to believe a couple of HDS sufferers over the FBI. You know, the ones actually deciding what is being investigated and for what reasons, both of which the judge you keep citing is not privy to.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:21 AM   #292
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What is so hard about saying that she's under criminal investigation. It's the plain truth.

I understand the desire to spin but at least acknowledge that is what is happening.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:26 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What is so hard about saying that she's under criminal investigation. It's the plain truth.

I understand the desire to spin but at least acknowledge that is what is happening.
Ask Comey. He's a lot more knowledgeable as to what is being investigated than 16.5 or Fudbucker, yet he won't use that phrase while they do.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:33 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ask Comey. He's a lot more knowledgeable as to what is being investigated than 16.5 or Fudbucker, yet he won't use that phrase while they do.
That's true, Comey specifically avoids that phrase.

It's a distinction without a difference, really. When the FBI investigates, they're trying to find evidence of criminal wrongdoing. What makes it such a good derail is Clinton tried to weasel out of even the word "investigation", by calling it a "security review".

It's just one of her many charms.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:33 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Yet he didn't call it criminal, either ...

Your explanation of why ?
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What word do you think the FBI director was objecting to?
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Answers to these would be appreciated.
Can't answer these easy questions, but has posted the same sentence from the judges order 5 times.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:37 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What is so hard about saying that she's under criminal investigation. It's the plain truth.
Since you missed it the first time ...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...-email/447648/

A spokeswoman for I. Charles McCullough, III, the intelligence community IG, said he sent a referral to the FBI earlier this month.

"The letter IC IG sent to FBI earlier this month was a counterintelligence referral indicating there is a compromise of classified national security information in former Sec. Clinton's emails. The emails exist on a at least one private server and thumb drive and that was the counterintelligence information concern we referred to the FBI," said spokesman Andrea Williams in an email.

A Justice Department official said Friday that "The Department has received a referral related to the potential compromise of classified information. It is not a criminal referral."


Although it's definitely not a criminal referral, it's a criminal investigation ?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I understand the desire to spin but at least acknowledge that is what is happening.
I understand it's not a security review. I'm not sure I understand if there is a difference between a security investigation and a criminal investigation, or why the director of the FBI chose not to call it a criminal investigation. Why do you think he did that ?
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:39 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Since you missed it the first time ...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...-email/447648/

A spokeswoman for I. Charles McCullough, III, the intelligence community IG, said he sent a referral to the FBI earlier this month.

"The letter IC IG sent to FBI earlier this month was a counterintelligence referral indicating there is a compromise of classified national security information in former Sec. Clinton's emails. The emails exist on a at least one private server and thumb drive and that was the counterintelligence information concern we referred to the FBI," said spokesman Andrea Williams in an email.

A Justice Department official said Friday that "The Department has received a referral related to the potential compromise of classified information. It is not a criminal referral."


Although it's definitely not a criminal referral, it's a criminal investigation ?



I understand it's not a security review. I'm not sure I understand if there is a difference between a security investigation and a criminal investigation, or why the director of the FBI chose not to call it a criminal investigation. Why do you think he did that ?
let me try. He's not able to hide behind an Internet persona, tries to ensure his comments are accurate and is held accountable if he errs.

Edit. This also reminds me of that other critical word thing, radical islam. It's like they're trying to win without scoring more points.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:41 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's true, Comey specifically avoids that phrase.

It's a distinction without a difference, really. When the FBI investigates, they're trying to find evidence of criminal wrongdoing. What makes it such a good derail is Clinton tried to weasel out of even the word "investigation", by calling it a "security review".

It's just one of her many charms.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-emails-recap/

Clinton’s phrasing — calling it a "security inquiry" — is not necessarily wrong, said Mark Pollitt, former chief of the FBI’s computer forensics program. But it obscures the fact that an investigation can be both security-related and criminal.

It clearly seems possible for the FBI to conduct security-related investigations that are both security-related and criminal.
Therefore it clearly seems possible for the FBI to conduct security-related investigations that are either security-related or criminal, but not both.
Hmmmm.....
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:45 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-emails-recap/

Clinton’s phrasing — calling it a "security inquiry" — is not necessarily wrong, said Mark Pollitt, former chief of the FBI’s computer forensics program. But it obscures the fact that an investigation can be both security-related and criminal.

It clearly seems possible for the FBI to conduct security-related investigations that are both criminal and non-criminal.

Hmmmm.....
That's a good link, but you cut off the rest of the paragraph:

"A reasonable person might take Clinton’s phrasing to mean the FBI is simply conducting a risk assessment of her server to see whether it’s secure. Agents might do that as part of an investigation, but it’s not the end game, Pollitt said."

You know what else is in that link?

"But of course, Clinton’s actions are clearly front-and-center in the FBI investigation. Based on her knowledge of how classified information mishandling cases proceed, and her understanding of public reports about Clinton’s role in the email setup, Glasser said the FBI is very likely looking at Clinton specifically.

"My experience tells me that Hillary Clinton is a subject of a criminal investigation," Glasser said
."

So that link is kind of a double-edged sword for you.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:55 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's a good link, but you cut off the rest of the paragraph:

"A reasonable person might take Clintonís phrasing to mean the FBI is simply conducting a risk assessment of her server to see whether itís secure. Agents might do that as part of an investigation, but itís not the end game, Pollitt said."

You know what else is in that link?

"But of course, Clintonís actions are clearly front-and-center in the FBI investigation. Based on her knowledge of how classified information mishandling cases proceed, and her understanding of public reports about Clintonís role in the email setup, Glasser said the FBI is very likely looking at Clinton specifically.

"My experience tells me that Hillary Clinton is a subject of a criminal investigation," Glasser said
."

So that link is kind of a double-edged sword for you.
That part you quoted (again) was previously quoted. What was left out was the portion I just quoted.

I understand there is an opinion in there that Clinton is the subject of a criminal investigation. She might be.

But I thought it was more important to put to rest this fallacious notion that all the FBI does is criminal investigations. That's simply not correct.

And it relates directly to the two two questions you have been ignoring.
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Old 17th June 2016, 11:11 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
That part you quoted (again) was previously quoted. What was left out was the portion I just quoted.

I understand there is an opinion in there that Clinton is the subject of a criminal investigation. She might be.

But I thought it was more important to put to rest this fallacious notion that all the FBI does is criminal investigations. That's simply not correct.

And it relates directly to the two two questions you have been ignoring.
What did I ignore? Why Comey calls it an investigation? I responded to that.
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Old 17th June 2016, 11:14 AM   #302
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Oh well, you literally get a court order entered by a judge who specifically reviewed documents from the FBI in connection with the investigation and the Judge enters an order saying it is a "criminal investigation," but you get "skeptics" who decide, Nah, I'm just going to go with what ever Hillary said.

LOLZ!
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Old 17th June 2016, 11:19 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What did I ignore? Why Comey calls it an investigation? I responded to that.
post 295. Sorry if i missed your responses
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Old 17th June 2016, 11:20 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Oh well, you literally get a court order entered by a judge who specifically reviewed documents from the FBI in connection with the investigation and the Judge enters an order saying it is a "criminal investigation," but you get "skeptics" who decide, Nah, I'm just going to go with what ever Hillary said.

LOLZ!
With what the Director of the FBI didn't say. LULZ !
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Old 17th June 2016, 11:23 AM   #305
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Maybe Comey refers to everything as an "investigation". Has he ever used the phrase "criminal investigation"?
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Old 17th June 2016, 11:29 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Maybe Comey refers to everything as an "investigation". Has he ever used the phrase "criminal investigation"?
If the director refuses to call it criminal, why do you insist on doing so?
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:13 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
If the director refuses to call it criminal, why do you insist on doing so?
For the same reason Hillary insisted it was a "security review".

I'll add that a few more people have agreed with me than Hillary (WH Press Secretary, this judge we're talking about).
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:17 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
For the same reason Hillary insisted it was a "security review".

I'll add that a few more people have agreed with me than Hillary (WH Press Secretary, this judge we're talking about).
Again, Comey knows far more about the investigation than you do, or the judge, or the WH Press Secretary who misspoke. Your partisan criticisms are noted, but lacking in veracity.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:21 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ask Comey. He's a lot more knowledgeable as to what is being investigated than 16.5 or Fudbucker, yet he won't use that phrase while they do.
Well, good, at least we have an admission that it's an investigation. Comey has said that he's conducting an investigation and that he's never heard of a "security inquiry." I don't care if he ever uses the word, "criminal." We all know what the FBI does. They certainly don't conduct security inquiries.

Couple that with Judge Sullivan's very clear statement that the investigation is criminal and now we know that what is going on is clearly a criminal investigation.

Denying that makes no sense. Insisting that others are trying to make things sound worse than they are doesn't either.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:26 PM   #310
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From Hillary's website:

Quote:
Is Department of Justice conducting a criminal inquiry into Clinton’s email use?

No
That gets the Shillary Stamp of Approval!

From the Judge who actually reviewed Documents from the FBI Investigation:

Quote:
Indeed, the privacy interests at stake are high because the government's criminal investigation through which Mr. Pagliano received limited immunity is ongoing and confidential.
That rates six thumbs down from the Shillaries.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:29 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, good, at least we have an admission that it's an investigation. Comey has said that he's conducting an investigation and that he's never heard of a "security inquiry." I don't care if he ever uses the word, "criminal." We all know what the FBI does. They certainly don't conduct security inquiries.
Actually, they certainly do.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Couple that with Judge Sullivan's very clear statement that the investigation is criminal and now we know that what is going on is clearly a criminal investigation.
Remind me again, how much of the FBI investigation that Judge Sullivan is privy to?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Denying that makes no sense. Insisting that others are trying to make things sound worse than they are doesn't either.
Insisting on using terms that the FBI themselves refuse to use isn't trying to make things sound worse? That makes no sense to me.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:31 PM   #312
xjx388
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Again, Comey knows far more about the investigation than you do, or the judge, or the WH Press Secretary who misspoke. Your partisan criticisms are noted, but lacking in veracity.
Are you saying here that it's not a criminal investigation? If so, then:

Given that:

1. Comey has indicated that it's an investigation and has never heard of a security inquiry.
2. The judge who reviewed relevant paperwork regarding a connected immunity deal called it a criminal investigation.

What else can we, desirous as we are to be as non-partisan as possible, possibly call this?
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:35 PM   #313
wareyin
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Are you saying here that it's not a criminal investigation? If so, then:

Given that:

1. Comey has indicated that it's an investigation and has never heard of a security inquiry.
2. The judge who reviewed relevant paperwork regarding a connected immunity deal called it a criminal investigation.

What else can we, desirous as we are to be as non-partisan as possible, possibly call this?
Being non-partisan, one would call it "an investigation", like Comey, the FBI Director.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:40 PM   #314
xjx388
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Actually, they certainly do.
Funny, then, that FBI Director Comey has never heard of a security inquiry. He was pretty clear on that point.

Quote:
Remind me again, how much of the FBI investigation that Judge Sullivan is privy to?
Much more than you or I. He reviewed an immunity deal connected to the investigation which led him to clearly state that said investigation is a criminal one.

Quote:
Insisting on using terms that the FBI themselves refuse to use isn't trying to make things sound worse? That makes no sense to me.
Direct me to where Comey "refused," to use the term. The fact that he didn't use the term doesn't indicate that he "refused." He said, according to Fox News:

Quote:
But when asked Wednesday by Fox News about Clinton's characterization of the bureau's probe, FBI Director James Comey said he doesnít know what "security inquiry" means -- adding, ďWeíre conducting an investigation. Ö Thatís what we do.Ē

The FBI director reiterated that heís ďnot familiar with the term security inquiryĒ when told that is the phrase Clinton has used.
I don't see a refusal to use a term there, just a careful political answer.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:41 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, good, at least we have an admission that it's an investigation. Comey has said that he's conducting an investigation and that he's never heard of a "security inquiry." I don't care if he ever uses the word, "criminal." We all know what the FBI does. They certainly don't conduct security inquiries.

Couple that with Judge Sullivan's very clear statement that the investigation is criminal and now we know that what is going on is clearly a criminal investigation.

Denying that makes no sense. Insisting that others are trying to make things sound worse than they are doesn't either.
Clearly you don't.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/a-new-fbi-focus
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:42 PM   #316
xjx388
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Being non-partisan, one would call it "an investigation", like Comey, the FBI Director.
And what, the FBI does investigations for ***** and giggles? Can we get the FBI to investigate the causes of global warming?

TO characterize an FBI investigation as criminal is just the plain truth; that's what they do. There's nothing partisan about it.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:44 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Funny, then, that FBI Director Comey has never heard of a security inquiry. He was pretty clear on that point.
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-emails-recap/

Clintonís phrasing ó calling it a "security inquiry" ó is not necessarily wrong, said Mark Pollitt, former chief of the FBIís computer forensics program. But it obscures the fact that an investigation can be both security-related and criminal.

It clearly seems possible for the FBI to conduct security-related investigations that are both security-related and criminal.
Therefore it clearly seems possible for the FBI to conduct security-related investigations that are either security-related or criminal, but not both.
Hmmmm.....

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Much more than you or I. He reviewed an immunity deal connected to the investigation which led him to clearly state that said investigation is a criminal one.

Direct me to where Comey "refused," to use the term. The fact that he didn't use the term doesn't indicate that he "refused." He said, according to Fox News:

I don't see a refusal to use a term there, just a careful political answer.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...with-reporters

Catherine: On the e-mails are you doing a security inquiry?

Director Comey: I donít know what that means?

Catherine: So itís a criminal investigation?

Director Comey: Weíre conducting an investigation.
Thatís the bureauís business. Thatís what we do. Thatís probably all I can say about it.

Catherine: The reason I ask is because Mrs. Clinton consistently refers to it as a security inquiry, but the FBI does criminal investigations. I just want to see if you can clear that up.

Director Comey: Right, itís in our name.
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:47 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Where in that wall of text does the FBI indicate it does anything but investigate criminal matters? The current Director isn't familiar with the term "security inquiry" so I think it stands to reason the FBI doesn't do "security inquiries."
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Old 17th June 2016, 12:58 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
<snip quoted text>
It obscures the fact that it is a criminal investigation related to security issues. That's what I got from that. The FBI doesn't do investigations related to security issues that don't have criminal possibilities.

Quote:
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...with-reporters

Catherine: On the e-mails are you doing a security inquiry?

Director Comey: I don’t know what that means?

Catherine: So it’s a criminal investigation?

Director Comey: We’re conducting an investigation.
That’s the bureau’s business. That’s what we do. That’s probably all I can say about it.

Catherine: The reason I ask is because Mrs. Clinton consistently refers to it as a security inquiry, but the FBI does criminal investigations. I just want to see if you can clear that up.

Director Comey: Right, it’s in our name.
He very clearly acknowledged that it's a criminal investigation. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be evidence that he "refused" to call it that or that it isn't indeed a criminal investigation. He may not have used the word but he didn't correct "Catherine's" use of the term. "Right," was his answer to, "but the FBI does criminal investigations." He may be limited in what he can say -for many reasons legal and political- but he acknowledged it very clearly there.
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Old 17th June 2016, 01:01 PM   #320
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So when the FBI concludes that their investigation found no evidence of criminal wrongdoing on Hillary's part, how are you Republicans going to react?

Maybe some sort of conspiracy theory where Obama ordered them to cover it up?
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