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Old 20th June 2017, 08:40 AM   #1
jond
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Proof of Immortality, VI

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Sackett wasn't being serious, so I have to take on someone else.
- I just can't deal with all you guys at once -- I need one spokesperson for your side.
- Also, I need to deal with one sub-issue at a time, so unless you tell me which sub-issue in your post you want me to deal with first, I'll pick the one I'd most like to deal with myself.
- If no one volunteers (Godless Dave, Hans, Agatha, SOdhner, Argumemnon, LL, js, jond, whomever?), or is nominated, I'll answer to Jay.
JayUtah's posts are always well thought out, and very much deserving of a response. As are many other people's posts. You are on a discussion forum, the nature of which is not 1 on 1 but rather discussion from a wide range of people with a wide range of opinions. You know this, of course, but insist that you are somehow special and deserving of special consideration. 1: you're not. 2: you were granted that wish with Loss Leader, and we all know how well that went for you. So, no: I refuse to participate in your games, and will continue to respond as I see fit, and as long as I adhere to the forum rules, you're just going to have to live with that.

Mod InfoContinued from here. By now, ya'll know the drill.
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Last edited by kmortis; 20th June 2017 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:51 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I just can't deal with all you guys at once -- I need one spokesperson for your side.

Why do you assume that people here are united in a "side"? We are different people with disparate opinions. According to your own ideas, we should have a sub-debate among ourselves about who should represent us, and then a sub-sub debate on each position such representative should hold, and then a sub-sub-sub debate over which words such representative should use. That's your model of debate at work, not some condition we're imposing.



Quote:
- If no one volunteers (Godless Dave, Hans, Agatha, SOdhner, Argumemnon, LL, js, jond, whomever?), or is nominated, I'll answer to Jay.

I specifically un-volunteer. I have attempted to debate with you before and you quickly abandoned me when you found the questions too difficult. Jay Utah would be an excellent choice of poster for you to listen to and try to comprehend.
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:10 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sackett wasn't being serious, so I have to take on someone else.
You chose this venue to post in knowing full well what kind and how much of a response you would get. Don't keep whining that you're in over your head, because we're all sick of it. Your inability to discern obvious mockery from serious debate doesn't speak well for you. In choosing an obvious heckler as your designated opponent, you revealed that you were looking only for someone who would agree to your one-sided ground rules, not someone whose rebutls you considered to be serious challenges.

You don't get to determined what the world thinks of you. You can only act honorably -- or dishonorably. You've done very little to support the notion that you're interested in taking criticism seriously, here or elsewhere. And you've ignored thousands of posts from obviously very well educated and knowledgeable people who have volunteered to educate you. You have the burden to prove you're interested in more than just a pulpit from which you can spew your teenage navel-gazing and expect rounds of applause. Carefully tailoring your opposition to be nothing more than token resistance doesn't carry that burden.

Quote:
I just can't deal with all you guys at once --
Boo-frickety-hoo.

You chosen the venue and you agreed to the terms. Trying to impose your own rules on the venue to keep you from being appropriately challenged is a desperate act.

But there's a loftier purpose. You've plainly said you are able to do something no one else on Earth can, or has been able, to do -- iincluding people like Aristotle and Plato. You've plainly said you think you can prove, by objective mathematical means, that an immortal soul exists. I would say that's the Holy Grail of religious thought, but I fear that would branch off to another holy-artifact thread. Joking aside, I asked you specifically why you thought you could succeed where so many other able thinkers have failed. You said you had a unique perspective and approach that no one else has had.

Let's be absolutely clear. Phrased like that, your claim boils down to the notion that Jabba is the most brilliant thinker on this subject that has ever lived. If you succeed, you're going to be written up not only in the history books but also in the annals of statistics, philosophy, and theology. People for centuries to come will laud your name as the person who finally proved that immortality is a mathematical certainty, not just a wishful theological doctrine.

What sort of hurdle should a person be made to clear who asks permission to bask in such bright and universal glory? Should it be an easy test? Should millennia of philosophy bow down to Jabba after only a brief examination by one opponent that Jabba himself designates? Or does the world have a duty to make sure that ideas only get pedestals after passing an arduous test? Does someone who wants to luxuriate in all the world's gaze need to face all the world? Or does a token palooka suffice?

Even were you to face every single one of the dozens of participants that are now actively engaging you, trying to hold you accountable, it would be a paltry scrutiny in light of the profundity of your claim. The very best that ISF could muster would be a drop in the bucket to what would be an appropriate test of the world's first objective proof of immortal life.

Quote:
I need one spokesperson for your side.
No. You don't get to publish your ideas to the world and then insist on a throttled critical response. The purpose of public debate is so that you face the public. If you want to debate a single person, send an e-mail.

Further, we've tried this before. The behavior you say was (and is) a consequence of too much criticism didn't improve when we limited you to one critic. The evidence says this proposed ground rule is just another thinly disguised effort to hobble your critics.

Quote:
Also, I need to deal with one sub-issue at a time...
No, you don't get to control the path of the debate. You don't get to write a script for your critics to follow. Your critics rightly raise points you don't consider in your case-in-chief. You don't get to sidestep them simply because it's not on the list of your approved "sub-issues."

Further, the past five years have seen you wallow in irrelevant detail endlessly while avoiding more pertinent arguments. As I have noted, this is a well-worn tactic the fringe uses to avoid a meaningful test of their ideas. You make no headway on any of your "sub-issues." Instead you pontificate endlessly on speculative nonsense akin to how many "potential selves" can dance on the head of a pin.

Quote:
If no one volunteers...or is nominated,
That's not how the forum works, Jabba. You don't get to foist your own ground rules for the "privilege" of debating you. Everyone who posts in this thread has already volunteered to help you look for errors in your proof. It falls to you to demonstrate that's what you really want.

Quote:
...I'll answer to Jay.
If you want to answer to me or anyone else, do it here in the venue you chose, according to the ground rules you agreed to when you signed up and started posting your arguments to this forum. Those ground rules provide for every member to ask questions and expect answers from you. And kindly answer retrospectively; your critics are not obliged to constantly repeat themselves in the face of your admitted dereliction. In my case, by my estimate you've largely ignored about a year's worth of my posts, so you have a lot of catch-up work to do. We've seen your willingness to go back and review the thread to produce lengthy anthologies, so please perform a suitable review now for the period corresponding to your previous dereliction. We're not just going to start the debate over for the hundredth time.

To make myself perfectly clear, I have no intention of dignifying your "blog" or "map" with any participation whatsoever on my part, or even the semblance of approval. In case it's not clear, I consider your offline summaries of your debates here and elsewhere to be highly dishonest and childish. I have no intention of being your designated punching bag. I have no intention to represent anyone but myself. I have no intention of being your one designated respondent. You do not have my permission to reproduce my ISF posts anywhere else. I hope that clarifies my approach to debating you.

I will simply not play your games.

Last edited by JayUtah; 20th June 2017 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:22 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Sackett wasn't being serious, so I have to take on someone else.
- I just can't deal with all you guys at once -- I need one spokesperson for your side.
- Also, I need to deal with one sub-issue at a time, so unless you tell me which sub-issue in your post you want me to deal with first, I'll pick the one I'd most like to deal with myself.
- If no one volunteers (Godless Dave, Hans, Agatha, SOdhner, Argumemnon, LL, js, jond, whomever?), or is nominated, I'll answer to Jay.

Hey, Jabba! How about answering this question:

If someone else existed instead of you, would your argument for immortality be valid if they presented it?
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Old 20th June 2017, 09:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
JayUtah's posts are always well thought out, and very much deserving of a response.
Thank you -- as are those of many others. Jabba has been the beneficiary of quite a lot of guidance.

Quote:
You are on a discussion forum, the nature of which is not 1 on 1 but rather discussion from a wide range of people with a wide range of opinions.
And a wide range of knowledge and skill. That's the nature of the modern Internet. You don't have to go too far before you find someone who has professional-level knowledge of practically any question.

Quote:
I refuse to participate in your games, and will continue to respond as I see fit, and as long as I adhere to the forum rules, you're just going to have to live with that.
I can't have said it better. We'll I said it above, but it took me more words than it took you.

There are many ways to look like you're having a debate without actually submitting your ideas to meaningful tests. Among those ways are trying to manipulate the venue or the stable of opponents to one's advantage. We're all on a level playing field here. I've seen enough of my posts in this thread disappear into the hall of shame to trust the moderation to be even-handed. That some idea attracts dozens more critics than proponents is not some accidental calamity for which the proponent is entitled to relief. There is no rule that says the pro and con of every idea has equal merit or equal appeal. What Jabba wants is not a level playing field. What he wants is a playing field that's tilted to compensate for the objective weakness of his argument.

Sadly this is the real world. Ideas that lack merit eventually fail there, regardless of how badly their proponents want them to be true. I fear Jabba hasn't come to terms with the possibility that something he thought of may not be correct.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:28 AM   #6
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Anyone got a link to that "one on one thread" between Loss Leader and Jabba? I'd like to read it.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
One of those reasons is that there are many more selves now than there used to be.
There are also more cars than 100 years ago. How is this an argument for a pool of potential selves?
Jabba?
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Jabba
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Why do you say this? Are there potential Volkswagens as well?..
- Yes. And, there is an infinity of them.
This is just silly... I am sure that VW is happy to read that.
Color me gobsmacked
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:13 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Anyone got a link to that "one on one thread" between Loss Leader and Jabba? I'd like to read it.
- Me too.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:19 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Anyone got a link to that "one on one thread" between Loss Leader and Jabba? I'd like to read it.
I believe this is it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=272394
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JimOfAllTrades View Post
Thanks.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Me too.
You were in it.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Me too.
You did read it already. How the hell could you forget? It was you and LL only.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:49 AM   #14
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Oh for flippin...

JABBA YOU ALREADY GOT YOUR "ONE ON ONE" SPECIAL THREAD AND YOU CHICKENED OUT OF THAT ONE TOO!

Stuff you do on the internet doesn't go away Jabba. Even fringe resets can't make it so we all forget what's already happened.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #15
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Jabba, are Volkswagens immortal? There are an infinite number of potential Volkswagens, and each Volkswagen is a brand new creation.
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Old 20th June 2017, 01:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, are Volkswagens immortal? There are an infinite number of potential Volkswagens, and each Volkswagen is a brand new creation.
- Being a brand new creation explains their potential infinity. It doesn't make them immortal, or even alive.
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Old 20th June 2017, 01:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Being a brand new creation explains their potential infinity.
No, non sequitur.

Quote:
It doesn't make them immortal, or even alive.
Life, immortal or otherwise, is not a property appropriate to Volkswagens. Volkswagens, however, have other emergent properties that are proper to them, such as "going 60 mph." You insist that materialism must respect the notion that life is somehow a magically different property of organisms that should be treated different than all other properties of all other entities, but you don't say upon what evidentiary grounds materialism should do this. That begs the question.
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Old 20th June 2017, 01:50 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Being a brand new creation explains their potential infinity. It doesn't make them immortal, or even alive.
So then how are being brand new creations and an infinite number of potentials relevant to the immortality of people but not Volkswagens?
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:06 PM   #19
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Why are you ignoring my important question, jabba?
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:28 PM   #20
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As predicted, Jabba, nobody leapt at the unenviable chance of carrying the poison chalice you present. So now what?
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Old 21st June 2017, 05:59 AM   #21
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Jabba, nobody is stopping you from responding to just JayUtah.
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Old 21st June 2017, 06:25 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, are Volkswagens immortal? There are an infinite number of potential Volkswagens, and each Volkswagen is a brand new creation.
Well, if we use the "engine as a radio" analogy, we know that there is at least one "going 60 MPH" looking through multiple sets of headlights right now.
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Old 21st June 2017, 07:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, nobody is stopping you from responding to just JayUtah.
Wait, seriously? Seriously??
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Old 21st June 2017, 08:21 AM   #24
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Personally I'd be quite happy if Jabba responded only to JayUtah, provided he responded with something more than "I don't understand, please explain it to me again, even though you've already explained it in the simplest possible terms at least a dozen times". Start with his point by point rebuttal of your most recent fringe reset please Jabba.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, nobody is stopping you from responding to just JayUtah.
Dave,
- Can I legally quote him without his permission?

Jay,
- What sub-issue would you like me to address first?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:23 AM   #26
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Every sub-issue you've raised these last 5 years had been shot down. You want to go through that again?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- What sub-issue would you like me to address first?
Here is one that I would like to see addressed.

What repeatable, scientific observation has been made that is not consistent with the current scientific consensus that consciousness (and self-identity) is a brain function based on physical condition and accumulated experience.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jay,
- What sub-issue would you like me to address first?
Why not start with his point by point refutation of your last fringe reset?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 06:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Waterman View Post
Here is one that I would like to see addressed.

What repeatable, scientific observation has been made that is not consistent with the current scientific consensus that consciousness (and self-identity) is a brain function based on physical condition and accumulated experience.
Jabba's existence, apparently
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:51 AM   #30
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- Adding to the map.

- The following is my opening statement so far -- I could have to revise it...

- I think that, using Bayesian statistics, I can virtually disprove the consensus scientific hypothesis that we each have only one, finite, life to live…
1. If something occurs that is unlikely to occur -- given a particular hypothesis -- the event is evidence against the hypothesis. (V3189)
(Godless Dave)1.1. Untrue.(V3193)
1.2. Dave,
- True (You're right). I probably should have said something like, "The event is potential, significant, evidence against the hypothesis."

- I'm still trying to figure out how to best number and reference additions to my map. 1.2. is new.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:54 AM   #31
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Adding to the map.

- The following is my opening statement so far -- I could have to revise it...

- I think that, using Bayesian statistics, I can virtually disprove the consensus scientific hypothesis that we each have only one, finite, life to live…
1. If something occurs that is unlikely to occur -- given a particular hypothesis -- the event is evidence against the hypothesis. (V3189)
(Godless Dave)1.1. Untrue.(V3193)
1.2. Dave,
- True (You're right). I probably should have said something like, "The event is potential, significant, evidence against the hypothesis."

- I'm still trying to figure out how to best number and reference additions to my map. 1.2. is new.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:54 AM   #32
Hokulele
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You still have no idea what "evidence" means.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm still trying to figure out how to best number and reference additions to my map. 1.2. is new.
Perhaps if you stopped trying to figure out everything and instead have a discussion with us you'd have learned something by now.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:02 AM   #34
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This is like a Dark Souls boss battle.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:03 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
This is like a Dark Souls boss battle.

I can only imagine what the loot table looks like.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:08 AM   #36
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Adding to the map.

- The following is my opening statement so far -- I could have to revise it...

- I think that, using Bayesian statistics, I can virtually disprove the consensus scientific hypothesis that we each have only one, finite, life to live…
1. If something occurs that is unlikely to occur -- given a particular hypothesis -- the event is evidence against the hypothesis. (V3189)
(Godless Dave)1.1. Untrue.(V3193)
1.2. Dave,
- True (You're right). I probably should have said something like, "The event is potential, significant, evidence against the hypothesis."
Still untrue.

If a hypothesis predicts a wide variety of possible events, each of them individually unlikely, then one of those events happening is not evidence against the hypothesis and there is no reason to think it could potentially be evidence against the hypothesis.

The individual location of each grain of sand on a beach is very unlikely. That tells you nothing about any hypotheses about how beaches are formed.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:10 AM   #37
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Jabba I have a question.

Why not just make it all up? I'm serious.

Why not just go onto this other site that has this mythical audience of supporters you claim you have... and just lie?

Tell them you won the argument. Just outright make up opponents and counter arguments yourself. Just write the epic story of how Jabba went in alone against the army of big mean skeptics and just broke their brains with your amazing debate style.

I mean you aren't listening to us here enough for anything we say to be meaningful even within the dishonest context you are promoting, so why are we even necessary?

It would literally be no more intellectually hollow or dishonest than what you are openly admitting you are doing now.

Why is a token, almost symbolic participation in this thread the one line you won't cross? You're making up our arguments out of whole cloth to feed your fantasy why not make up the entire debate?
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Last edited by JoeBentley; 22nd June 2017 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:37 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Still untrue.

If a hypothesis predicts a wide variety of possible events, each of them individually unlikely, then one of those events happening is not evidence against the hypothesis and there is no reason to think it could potentially be evidence against the hypothesis.

The individual location of each grain of sand on a beach is very unlikely. That tells you nothing about any hypotheses about how beaches are formed.
Dave,
- I think that's wrong.
- When an event is unlikely to happen given a particular hypothesis, it is potential evidence against the hypothesis, in that, it being evidence depends upon other conditions. Here, one of the conditions is that the "hypothesis predicts a wide variety of possible events, each of them individually unlikely."
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I think that's wrong.
What you "think" is irrelevant Jabba if you can't provide some evidence for it.

Quote:
When an event is unlikely to happen given a particular hypothesis, it is potential evidence against the hypothesis, in that, it being evidence depends upon other conditions.
That's like say getting dealt a Royal Flush disproves poker.

Or in your case it's like dealing hand after hand until you get a Royal Flush, then gasping and going "That's so unlikely!"
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Old 22nd June 2017, 12:11 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
The following is my opening statement so far -- I could have to revise it...
Unacceptable.

I don't mean the statement is unacceptable, I mean that it is unacceptable for you to be making an "opening statement" in the sixth chapter of this five-year debate, in which there are already thousands upon thousands of posts addressing all the points you've made and all the points you're about to make all over again. Do something besides rev the engine, Jabba.

Quote:
I think that, using Bayesian statistics, I can virtually disprove the consensus scientific hypothesis that we each have only one, finite, life to live…
No.

You said you "[thought you could] essentially prove immortality by means of Bayesian statistics." That was your affirmative proposition. Do not try to change horses now to some easier, indirect, or negative statement. Do not try to reverse the burden of proof. Do not be dishonest. Trying to sneak things in by the back door is one of the abhorrent behaviors I called you out on earlier, and will continue to call you out on until you stop doing it.

Quote:
If something occurs that is unlikely to occur -- given a particular hypothesis -- the event is evidence against the hypothesis.
This was discussed in my answer to your last manifesto. As early as this morning you were keen to dive into it, but now It appears you've abandoned it to start yet again. Unfortunately for you, my last response still stands and still goes ignored and unaddressed by you. Since you are deliberately ignoring it, I take it to mean you are unable to answer it. The eleven fatal flaws I identified in your argument individually and collectively refute it. You will not answer, so that must mean you accept the refutation. Now the honorable thing would be for you to concede.

Quote:
I'm still trying to figure out how to best number and reference additions to my map.
We don't care. You've fiddled and fussed with irrelevant details for days now recently, and for years on end rather than actually engage your critics meaningfully. You've strained the patience of your critics to the breaking point. Quit playing games. Quit wasting our time.
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