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Old 9th July 2017, 07:54 AM   #361
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The nearby history museum has plaques in the sidewalk outside. There is a new one with an image of the Confederate memorial that reads:

Quote:
History underfoot 1914
Can the past tear us apart?
Forest Park's most controversial Monument was the Confederate Memorial unveiled in 1914. St Louis had been torn apart by the Civil War and many residents objected to a commemoration of the secessionist cost.
Missouri History Museum
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:54 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'm saying this is yet another pointless semantic hair split for Confederate apologist that I have zero intention of entertaining.

I'm done being herded to some strawman of "The Civil War was not 'about racism' unless every single Southerner was cartoonishly super-villain level racist and had zero other motivation and every Northerner was a perfectly flawless demi-God with an exactly modern concept of racial relations."
How is it apologist? I think it makes you significantly more evil to abuse others for personal gain rather than a terrible interpretation of morality.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:55 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The other two are the ones that you are championing. That doesn't make them legitimate.
You championed the third one.you posted something saying broad support among poor whites was that it elevated their relative social status.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:57 AM   #364
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What?

Dude what are you even arguing at this point?
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:01 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
What?

Dude what are you even arguing at this point?
That the primary motive for the civil war wasn't an ideological basis for slavery but maintaining a greedy and exploitive system for the motives of wealth, power, and status.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:05 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You championed the third one.you posted something saying broad support among poor whites was that it elevated their relative social status.
I pointed out that the article you cited did not fully support your argument.

And, how in the world do you get that enforcing slavery as a social caste isn't actually slavery? I'm not an expert in history but even I know that much about slavery.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:08 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That the primary motive for the civil war wasn't an ideological basis for slavery but maintaining a greedy and exploitive system for the motives of wealth, power, and status.
You don't think wealth, power, and status can be ideological? Have you not read the primary sources linked to in this thread?
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:09 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I pointed out that the article you cited did not fully support your argument.

And, how in the world do you get that enforcing slavery as a social caste isn't actually slavery? I'm not an expert in history but even I know that much about slavery.
I'm not sure I cited something that was being referenced at that point. That might explain some of the miscommunication. I will have to go back and look.

I didn't say, "not slavery." I said, "not about slavery." It is about the benefits of enjoying higher relative social status.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:11 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You don't think wealth, power, and status can be ideological? Have you not read the primary sources linked to in this thread?
It can. I can think of places where it is one way or the other. But that is why I said I see the south more like countries suffering under the despots and the resource curse.

Also, an ideological belief in gaining wealth and power that uses slavery to gain those things is not an ideological belief in slavery.

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Old 9th July 2017, 08:19 AM   #370
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By primary sources did you mean like the states's documents on reasons to secede? I have read them before. I have regularly brought them up when talking to people that think it was about states rights or that slavery would have ended peacefully.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:19 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Also, an ideological belief in gaining wealth and power that uses slavery to gain those things is not an ideological belief in slavery.
Utter nonsense. You apparently not familiar with most religions.

ETA: or politics, for that matter.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:25 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Utter nonsense. You apparently not familiar with most religions.
Please explain how ideological belief x that uses mechanism A is ideological belief in A. What is this transitive property of ideology?
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:33 AM   #373
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Oh for Pete's sake.

Nothing ever caused anything via your "logic."
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:38 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That the primary motive for the civil war wasn't an ideological basis for slavery but maintaining a greedy and exploitive system for the motives of wealth, power, and status.
HOW IS THAT BETTER?!
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:40 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Oh for Pete's sake.

Nothing ever caused anything via your "logic."
I don't know if that is true but is a philosophical idea I would like to hear more about.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:41 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
HOW IS THAT BETTER?!
I didn't say it was.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:42 AM   #377
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Oh we are not playing another game of philosophical turtles all the way down just so some inane statement can't be argued against.

If you want to argue against the very idea of causality start a new thread.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:43 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say it was.
*Very slowly* Then... what... are... you... saying?

Make a statement, not a fauxosophy contrarian nonsense excuse for once in this thread.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:44 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Oh we are not playing another game of philosophical turtles all the way down just so some inane statement can't be argued against.

If you want to argue against the very idea of causality start a new thread.
You can't have a discussion about causes or what something is about without litigating what it means for something to be a cause.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:45 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
*Very slowly* Then... what... are... you... saying?

Make a statement, not a fauxosophy contrarian nonsense excuse for once in this thread.
Post 365 is my statement. That is it. You quoted it. Why is that statement not adequate?
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:53 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Please explain how ideological belief x that uses mechanism A is ideological belief in A. What is this transitive property of ideology?
I have no idea what you are talking about. Let's look to the lessons of history.

The Nazis had an ideological belief that they were better than the Jews, who they saw as devils and thieves, and used as a rationale for stealing the possessions of the Jews.

Likewise, the Confederats had an ideological belief that blacks were inferior and that their slavery was not only practical for the South, but moral, just and beneficial for black people.

Heck, the Catholic Church used ideological belief as a mechanism to gain power and wealth for centuries.

Honestly, it's rare for a successful ideology to not result in power and wealth.

Or are you suggesting that the South didn't have an ideological belief in slavery, despite all the primary sources saying exactly that?
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:56 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You can't have a discussion about causes or what something is about without litigating what it means for something to be a cause.
Bull. I'm not going to let you bring this discussion to a screeching halt until I somehow empirically prove that "Cause and effect" is a thing to your satisfaction.

This nonsense is really making discussions impossible on this board. This "Prove you're not a brain in a jar before you dare try and tell me Bigfoot doesn't exist" argumentative downgrading nonsense at least used to be confined to the Woo topics but more and more it's everywhere.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:57 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Post 365 is my statement. That is it. You quoted it. Why is that statement not adequate?
Because it's nonsensical word games that don't mean anything.

But please continue with your "It depends on what the definition if 'is' is." argument.
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Old 9th July 2017, 08:58 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about. Let's look to the lessons of history.

The Nazis had an ideological belief that they were better than the Jews, who they saw as devils and thieves, and used as a rationale for stealing the possessions of the Jews.

Likewise, the Confederats had an ideological belief that blacks were inferior and that their slavery was not only practical for the South, but moral, just and beneficial for black people.

Heck, the Catholic Church used ideological belief as a mechanism to gain power and wealth for centuries.

Honestly, it's rare for a successful ideology to not result in power and wealth.

Or are you suggesting that the South didn't have an ideological belief in slavery, despite all the primary sources saying exactly that?
You listed a bunch of things that are ideological beliefs (claimed, at least) that are not actually about ideological wealth and power. An example of ideological wealth would be "pray for wealth" churches.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:00 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Post 365 is my statement. That is it. You quoted it. Why is that statement not adequate?
It's trivially debunked.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:00 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It's trivially debunked.
So you say. Obviously, I disagree.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:02 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So you say. Obviously, I disagree.
Please prove that the concept of "Disagree" actually exists and that it is Upchurch sole and only reason for posting that post or admit defeat.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:03 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Bull. I'm not going to let you bring this discussion to a screeching halt until I somehow empirically prove that "Cause and effect" is a thing to your satisfaction.

This nonsense is really making discussions impossible on this board. This "Prove you're not a brain in a jar before you dare try and tell me Bigfoot doesn't exist" argumentative downgrading nonsense at least used to be confined to the Woo topics but more and more it's everywhere.
There are a wide range of skeptics on this forum. Since a lot of discussion is about things being true, there is constant litigation of the philosophy of truth. The "meaning of is" has real implications.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:05 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are three scenarios presented in this thread

-slavery as an ideological cause where slavery is a valuable ends to itself

-slavery as a mechanism to generate wealth

-slavery as a mechanism to create a lower social tier to boost your own relative status.

Only the first one is actually about slavery. The other two are about wealth and relative social status.
Frankly, this line of reasoning is idiotic.

If I say "The Iraq war was about oil", that claim does not imply that the US values oil in and of itself.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:05 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Please prove that the concept of "Disagree" actually exists and that it is Upchurch sole and only reason for posting that post or admit defeat.
I will not prove that, but I'm not actually required to agree to terms that we haven't arrived at before. You are free to do with that as you wish.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:05 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So you say. Obviously, I disagree.
Post 323

Want more? This thread is full 'em.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:05 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are a wide range of skeptics on this forum. Since a lot of discussion is about things being true, there is constant litigation of the philosophy of truth. The "meaning of is" has real implications.
But that doesn't mean every conversation should be brought to a screeching halt because some navel gazer wants to play "Wise Old Man on the Mountain."
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:06 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Frankly, this line of reasoning is idiotic.

If I say "The Iraq war was about oil", that claim does not imply that the US values oil in and of itself.
Yes, it does. Which is why we do ourselves I disservice thinking about causes that way.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:06 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are three scenarios presented in this thread

-slavery as an ideological cause where slavery is a valuable ends to itself

-slavery as a mechanism to generate wealth

-slavery as a mechanism to create a lower social tier to boost your own relative status.

Only the first one is actually about slavery. The other two are about wealth and relative social status.
Slavery is a social status, and the existence of slavery is about wealth )as well as relattive social status). Slaves were possessions, and were included in the inventory of wealth enumerated by their owners.

They also contributed to wealth by working without remuneration beyond their keep, and being unable to change their employers in search of better conditions of life. They could be sold, in the United States, because they were legally chattels.

The attempt to distinguish between wealth on one hand and slavery on the other is a distress signal, indicating intellectual desperation on the part of anyone ill-advised enough to embark on such a preposterous argument.

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Old 9th July 2017, 09:07 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I will not prove that, but I'm not actually required to agree to terms that we haven't arrived at before. You are free to do with that as you wish.
Huh funny. As if you are keeping one set of argumentative standards for yourself and one for everyone else.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:09 AM   #396
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So erecting a monument to the how awesome it was that the South fought a war to protect it's human property is just peachy because of philosophy word salad.

Got it. Glad we cleared that up.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:09 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Huh funny. As if you are keeping one set of argumentative standards for yourself and one for everyone else.
No, I am not. As I said, you are free to do with my response as you wish. If I specified you had to react a certain way to my response, that would be applying a standard. Recognizing my comment doesn't meet that standard, I acknowledged it doesn't dictate any action.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:11 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
So erecting a monument to the how awesome it was that the South fought a war to protect it's human property is just peachy because of philosophy word salad.

Got it. Glad we cleared that up.
I never said I supported these statues. I actually detest them.
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:12 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No, I am not. As I said, you are free to do with my response as you wish. If I specified you had to react a certain way to my response, that would be applying a standard. Recognizing my comment doesn't meet that standard, I acknowledged it doesn't dictate any action.
Much in the same way that my evaluation of your position as intellectually dishonest, doesn't require you to dig yourself in any deeper?
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:12 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Much in the same way that my evaluation of your position as intellectually dishonest, doesn't require you to dig yourself in any deeper?
Yes.
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