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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:31 AM   #1
Meadmaker
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Nazis, white supremacists, white nationalists, etc....

After Charlottesvill, there is a lot of talk about neo-Nazis, alt-right, racists, etc. I wrote a post about it, but decided it was off topic for the thread it was in, and, really, in any of the threads. So I decided to start a thread on the overall topic of the extreme versions of racism in the US today.

I'll begin by saying that I don't really take these people seriously. Maybe I should, but I don't. I think their ideology has been thoroughly discredited, and they are losing. They may appear to be more prominent than they used to be because they stick out more than they used to. Racisim, in general, is less acceptable than it used to be, and some people who used to just be casual racists have been feeling social pressure against them, which they never used to feel, and have reacted by going full Nazi. I don't see it as a rising trend, but rather the death throes of a former and not-lamented way of life.

That is not to say there is no racism in the US or the world today, just that this sort of blatant, outright, racism represented by the KKK, white supremacists, white nationalists, or whatever they call themselves, is no longer acceptable. Within my lifetime, a segregationist ran for president, as a segregationist, and got millions of votes. That wouldn't happen today, and even that segregationist repudiated his former beliefs before he died. The ideology is mostly dead, and good riddance. What we see today are the remnants struggling for significance in an atmosphere where most people see them as a nuissance.


To end, here is the post I originally made in another thread, in response to a post in that thread.


Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, the discussion is the Charlottesville Car Crash Video. But since you asked, Ill try to explain it again from the beginning: people here (and in every media outlet around the world) use White Nationalist, White Supremacist, neo-Nazi, and Nazi interchangeably to describe the protesters at Charlottesville. That's wrong. They're not the same. White Nationalism isn't White supremacism. It's not Nazism. White Nationalism isn't inherently racist
Uhhh..yeah it is. Really. It is.

And there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between the various categories you say are different.



Quote:
. White Nationalism is the moral equivalent of Zionism.
Now, that's a complicated topic. Is Zionism inherently racist? Is Zionism not inherently racist, but in practice it is racist? Is Zionism racist at all? Those questions don't have easy answers.

However, what is clearly true is that Zionism was born of the fact that a people were persecuted for their relitigious and/or ethnic differences for some 2000 years, and finally murdered by the millions, wiping out a significant part of their worldwide population and nearly all of the population from certain areas where they had been numerous. If you can show me anything remotely similar that has happened to white people, then there could be a coherent and intelligent comparison between white nationalism and zionism. However, you cannot. There is nothing similar, and nothing worth comparing.


One of the huge differences between white nationalism and zionism is that there is no such thing as "white culture". It doesn't exist. So what is it that white nationalists want? Skin color isn't culture. White nationalists don't want some separate autonomous area where they are free to do their white things without fear. They don't even want a separate area where everyone living there does the same things as everyone else. The black people they would expel from the white "homeland" would be people who do the same things they do, but they do it with dark skin.

It's just nonsense.

ETA: And, note to mods. If you feel this thread is insufficiently different from one of the Charlottesville-inspired threads, and doesn't warrant a new thread, I won't be offended if you move the post, or even remvoe the thread. My opinion was that it was a derail from where I originally posted it, so I put it in a new thread.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:40 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
However, what is clearly true is that Zionism was born of the fact that a people were persecuted for their relitigious and/or ethnic differences for some 2000 years, and finally murdered by the millions, wiping out a significant part of their worldwide population and nearly all of the population from certain areas where they had been numerous.
Wasn't Zionism founded well before the Nazis took power?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:45 AM   #3
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My wife and I have been discussing how the word "racism" is too broad to be accurate in modern society. Riffing off of the saying that "Eskimos have 30 words for 'snow'" (I know, I know), we've decided English needs more words for racism.

There is the overt Nazi-saluting, white hood-wearing racism that everyone thinks of. That's the easy one to identify. There is also more passive forms of racism, like "being okay with or ignoring systemic racism in the justice system" racism or the "I like the black people I personally know, but I disparage black people I don't know" racism. etc. There is even unconscious racism, like implicit racial bias.

I think racism has a lot of nuance, but any discussion of goes to the binary extremes of white hoods or none at all.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:50 AM   #4
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Perhaps some of those things on your list aren't really racism in the first place.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:58 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wasn't Zionism founded well before the Nazis took power?
Yes, but the Nazis didn't pull their anti-semitism from their collective tukhuses. The Holocaust was the culmination of literally centuries of Jewish persecution in central and eastern Europe.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There is even unconscious racism, like implicit racial bias.
I think this is the most pervasive form of racism that exists in the United States today. In fact, I think this is most of the racism today.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wasn't Zionism founded well before the Nazis took power?
Right. During those 2000 years of varying degrees of persecution, Zionism began. It gathered steam in the 19th and 20th centuries, and finally culminated in the establishment of Israel in the aftermath of the holocaust.


White nationalists have no comparable experience, so they shouldn't be compared to Zionists.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Right. During those 2000 years of varying degrees of persecution, Zionism began. It gathered steam in the 19th and 20th centuries, and finally culminated in the establishment of Israel in the aftermath of the holocaust.


White nationalists have no comparable experience, so they shouldn't be compared to Zionists.
I just wanted to clarify because your post seemed to claim that the Holocaust was one of the causes of Zionism's foundation.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:19 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Right. During those 2000 years of varying degrees of persecution, Zionism began. It gathered steam in the 19th and 20th centuries, and finally culminated in the establishment of Israel in the aftermath of the holocaust.


White nationalists have no comparable experience, so they shouldn't be compared to Zionists.
What justifies a specific form of ethnonationalism?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:29 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think this is the most pervasive form of racism that exists in the United States today. In fact, I think this is most of the racism today.
Possibly, but I think ignoring or rejecting the notion of systemic racism in the justice system has more effect on society.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 08:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
we've decided English needs more words for racism.

There is the overt Nazi-saluting, white hood-wearing racism that everyone thinks of. That's the easy one to identify. There is also more passive forms of racism, like "being okay with or ignoring systemic racism in the justice system" racism or the "I like the black people I personally know, but I disparage black people I don't know" racism. etc. There is even unconscious racism, like implicit racial bias.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Perhaps some of those things on your list aren't really racism in the first place.
Okay but that kinda proves his point? I mean, I'm fine with just calling all of that racism. But if you're not, wouldn't you agree that we need more nuanced terminology?

Now I'm curious which of those things you wouldn't call racism.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 08:56 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Okay but that kinda proves his point?
The general point, yes. But "I like black people I know personally and not black people I don't know personally" isn't racist, full stop.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The general point, yes. But "I like black people I know personally and not black people I don't know personally" isn't racist, full stop.
"Black people are lazy! Oh, not you, Tim. You're one of the good ones." Is what he (appears to be) talking about, and it's absolutely racist.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:57 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
"Black people are lazy! Oh, not you, Tim. You're one of the good ones." Is what he (appears to be) talking about, and it's absolutely racist.
I disagree with the highlighted, but Upchurch can correct me.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 11:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
"Black people are lazy! Oh, not you, Tim. You're one of the good ones." Is what he (appears to be) talking about, and it's absolutely racist.
Again, I doubt it's rarely that blatant or obvious, but yes.

"I'm not racist. I like Tim just fine."
But also,
"Those thugs got what they deserved."
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Old 23rd August 2017, 11:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Again, I doubt it's rarely that blatant or obvious, but yes.

"I'm not racist. I like Tim just fine."
But also,
"Those thugs got what they deserved."
Tendentious at best. You're assuming that "thugs" must be a code word for "blacks," and (apparently) that nobody should wish for thugs to get what they deserve.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 11:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Tendentious at best. You're assuming that "thugs" must be a code word for "blacks,"
It's a very common one.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
and (apparently) that nobody should wish for thugs to get what they deserve.
You're bad at understanding hypothetical examples.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 11:56 AM   #18
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...and this is why we need more nuanced language for dealing with racism biases, prejudices, and/or preconceived notions of ethnicity within individuals, society, and the law. Using the r-word inevitably results in people getting defensive and objecting to the word rather than addressing the situation.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:10 PM   #19
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Just point out to white supremacists/nationalists, that they are of immigrant stock and if they do not like it in the USA, they need to learn to compromise with other immigrants, those forced there by slavery and those who were originally there.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
...and this is why we need more nuanced language for dealing with racism biases, prejudices, and/or preconceived notions of ethnicity within individuals, society, and the law. Using the r-word inevitably results in people getting defensive and objecting to the word rather than addressing the situation.
Good point.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Possibly, but I think ignoring or rejecting the notion of systemic racism in the justice system has more effect on society.
I think the "systemic racism" is a cumulative effect of the unconscious bias. I think there is very little overt, deliberate, racism in our society. I think there are very few people who say, "I don't like blacks". or "I won't hire black people." I think there are a lot of people who just decide that the resume that they receive from DeAndre just isn't as good as the one they received from Bob.

When it comes to the justice system, I don't think prosecutors deliberately prosecute blacks differently, and I don't think jurors deliberately convict black people on flimsy evidence. I think they just have a starting, unconscious, bias.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Again, I doubt it's rarely that blatant or obvious, but yes.

"I'm not racist. I like Tim just fine."
But also,
"Those thugs got what they deserved."


It's an age old trope.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think the "systemic racism" is a cumulative effect of the unconscious bias. I think there is very little overt, deliberate, racism in our society.
Yeeeeaaah, I don't think so.

Systemic racism has been part of our legal system since its inception. First as legalized slavery, then to Jim Crow laws, and then to the War on Drugs/Crime. To say that what we have now is the cumulative result of unconscious bias ignores all the very conscious effort that went into what we have today.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes to the justice system, I don't think prosecutors deliberately prosecute blacks differently, and I don't think jurors deliberately convict black people on flimsy evidence. I think they just have a starting, unconscious, bias.
I agree that unconscious bias definitely plays a part in systemic racism in the Justice system, but it is not solely responsible.


Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It's an age old trope.
Which is why I included it as an easily recognizable example.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
My wife and I have been discussing how the word "racism" is too broad to be accurate in modern society. Riffing off of the saying that "Eskimos have 30 words for 'snow'" (I know, I know), we've decided English needs more words for racism.

There is the overt Nazi-saluting, white hood-wearing racism that everyone thinks of. That's the easy one to identify. There is also more passive forms of racism, like "being okay with or ignoring systemic racism in the justice system" racism or the "I like the black people I personally know, but I disparage black people I don't know" racism. etc. There is even unconscious racism, like implicit racial bias.

I think racism has a lot of nuance, but any discussion of goes to the binary extremes of white hoods or none at all.
I agree. When the same word is used to describe everything from peanut butter sandwiches to homocidal lynch mobs, you know it's time to retire the word. It's obvious that the word has become more about demonizing things people don't like than it is about identifying legitimate issues.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I agree. When the same word is used to describe everything from peanut butter sandwiches to homocidal lynch mobs, you know it's time to retire the word. It's obvious that the word has become more about demonizing things people don't like than it is about identifying legitimate issues.
I think "racism" still has merit as a word, despite my "r-word" joke. I don't even think it has become illegitimate through overuse. I do think it needs additional nomenclature, perhaps just some adjectives, for clarity.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:24 PM   #26
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One of the reasons the r-word could use a bit of refinement is that people use it to cover everything from a tendency to not want to drive through Detroit, to joining a white supremacist group. If someone can identify anything that could be considered the least bit racist, they act like they might as well have found a KKK membership card.

There's no real difference between a white nationalist and a white supremacist, but there's a big difference between a white supremacist and your uncle Bob who didn't hire a black kid who applied to work at his hardware store. Both are racist, but there really is a difference.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I think "racism" still has merit as a word, despite my "r-word" joke. I don't even think it has become illegitimate through overuse. I do think it needs additional nomenclature, perhaps just some adjectives, for clarity.
Do you think that is likely to happen?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:36 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's no real difference between a white nationalist and a white supremacist, but there's a big difference between a white supremacist and your uncle Bob who didn't hire a black kid who applied to work at his hardware store. Both are racist, but there really is a difference.
It's really absurd when the word is used to simultaneously refer to things on the opposite side of the spectrum. Ive often read that it is racist to not be attracted to black women, but those same people will say it's also racist to be attracted to black women.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:55 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
One of the reasons the r-word could use a bit of refinement is that people use it to cover everything from a tendency to not want to drive through Detroit, to joining a white supremacist group. If someone can identify anything that could be considered the least bit racist, they act like they might as well have found a KKK membership card.
Conversely, if anyone is identified with anything that could be considered the least bit racist, they act like they are being accused of having a KKK membership card.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's no real difference between a white nationalist and a white supremacist, but there's a big difference between a white supremacist and your uncle Bob who didn't hire a black kid who applied to work at his hardware store. Both are racist, but there really is a difference.
I'd say there is a definitional difference between a white nationalist and a white supremacist. In practice, though, you're correct; the difference is moot.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Do you think that is likely to happen?
I see no reason why not. We could do it here in this thread.

If you're, instead, asking whether it is likely that such a nomenclature would reach popular usage, I dunno. Maybe.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yeeeeaaah, I don't think so.

Systemic racism has been part of our legal system since its inception. First as legalized slavery, then to Jim Crow laws, and then to the War on Drugs/Crime. To say that what we have now is the cumulative result of unconscious bias ignores all the very conscious effort that went into what we have today.


I agree that unconscious bias definitely plays a part in systemic racism in the Justice system, but it is not solely responsible.
What evidence do you present for systemic racism in the present-day justice system? Or do you just assume it?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The general point, yes. But "I like black people I know personally and not black people I don't know personally" isn't racist, full stop.
Yes it is. Full stop.

Unless you also dislike white people you don't know personally.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:08 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Just point out to white supremacists/nationalists, that they are of immigrant stock and if they do not like it in the USA, they need to learn to compromise with other immigrants, those forced there by slavery and those who were originally there.
Yes. If white nationalism is a thing then it needs a white nation and that ain't the usa.

In reality it's nowhere
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:08 PM   #34
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...If I were you...

I'd get away from the idea that these are "death throes". I've heard this many times, and it's never been true. Better to register disgust at all forms of Ethno-nationalism.

It is important to let them know that they are being rejected by society. This will not be a fun fight. As far as I care, the wrong side is in the Oval Office - and I'm sure that many other people feel the same way, looking at the counter-protestors. THey foolishy decided to make these monuments odes to white supremacy, which they alaways were.

Turns out the vast majority rejects their ugly vision.

Every monument that was put up in the past 100-150 years to intimidate black people. Tear them all down. Gey rid of Toupee Fiasco entirely - we'll deal with whatever young earth nonsense Pence will dish out.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:09 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What evidence do you present for systemic racism in the present-day justice system? Or do you just assume it?
Well, let's not derail the thread too much, but okay, sure. Let's not forget that Jeff Sessions has rededicated the AG's office to making the War on Drugs part of the present-day justice system.

So, no. Not just an assumption.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
It's really absurd when the word is used to simultaneously refer to things on the opposite side of the spectrum. Ive often read that it is racist to not be attracted to black women, but those same people will say it's also racist to be attracted to black women.
There isn't really any contradiction there if the reason is because they are black for either preference. I disagree with the conclusion but if it's racist to be attracted to black women then t is equally racist to be unattracted to black women and vice versa.

It's probably also racist o be colourblind so you probably can't win in that one.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yes it is. Full stop.
Then demonstrate it.

Quote:
Unless you also dislike white people you don't know personally.
Non sequitur.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:07 PM   #38
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I AGREE
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Tendentious at best. You're assuming that "thugs" must be a code word for "blacks," and (apparently) that nobody should wish for thugs to get what they deserve.
Thugs, of course are Indians (India) who are members of the cult of Kali. They worship her and kill - often by strangling with a yellow, knotted scarf- and steal from travelers.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:40 PM   #40
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They are called Thugee from which thug is derived!!
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