ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd August 2017, 06:42 PM   #41
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,823
Could meadmaker please provide the definition of racism to be applied in this thread?
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 07:21 PM   #42
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could meadmaker please provide the definition of racism to be applied in this thread?
How do you mean?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 07:50 PM   #43
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,823
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
How do you mean?
It would be easier to clarify for meadmaker whether supremecists and nationalists are racist if meadmaker provides the operative definition for racism that meadmaker is using.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 07:52 PM   #44
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could meadmaker please provide the definition of racism to be applied in this thread?
No. Why would I do that?

This thread has kind of morphed into a "what is racism" thread, along with a "what kind of racism is there in America." That's an interesting enough topic, and related closely enough to the OP that I wouldn't call it off topic. However, I had two real points in the OP.

1. There is no real difference between a white nationalist, a white supremacist, a modern American Nazi, or any of the various other terms the racist hate groups go by. They're all pretty much alike, despite CaptainHowdy's assertion to the contrary (posted in another thread).

2. Those various hate groups are despicable and all that, but they really need not be taken seriously as a real threat to the people of America, or any subset thereof. They're more like a sideshow.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 07:55 PM   #45
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,823
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
No. Why would I do that?

This thread has kind of morphed into a "what is racism" thread, along with a "what kind of racism is there in America." That's an interesting enough topic, and related closely enough to the OP that I wouldn't call it off topic. However, I had two real points in the OP.

1. There is no real difference between a white nationalist, a white supremacist, a modern American Nazi, or any of the various other terms the racist hate groups go by. They're all pretty much alike, despite CaptainHowdy's assertion to the contrary (posted in another thread).

2. Those various hate groups are despicable and all that, but they really need not be taken seriously as a real threat to the people of America, or any subset thereof. They're more like a sideshow.
To discuss one with you, we need to know what you mean by racist. If we use different sources, we could be arguing past each other. I don't want to debate what racism is, I just want to use yours.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 11:42 PM   #46
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,952
I don't think claiming that neo-Nazis and other racist Groups are powerless or that they aren't relevant in today's society is dangerously naive, especially considering that we are now seeing that there is an ongoing radicalization of angry young white men on the internet. This radicalization has started to become clear as journalists are looking at the people who showed up to the Charlottesville rally and finding commonalities in their stories. The US is on the verge of getting its own home-grown ISIS.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 12:09 AM   #47
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,567
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Well, let's not derail the thread too much, but okay, sure. Let's not forget that Jeff Sessions has rededicated the AG's office to making the War on Drugs part of the present-day justice system.

So, no. Not just an assumption.
Evidence from Ferguson, Mo. is hardly proof of systemic bias. The US News & World Report article is interesting. However, their assumption seems to be that since whites and blacks use drugs at similar rates, they should be arrested and incarcerated at the same rates. But there could be other reasons for the differing rates of arrest. Maybe blacks put themselves in situations where they are more likely to draw the attention of police. For example, driving way too fast:

Quote:
It defined speeding as exceeding the speed limit by 15 miles per hour, since officers are instructed to focus on the worst offenders...In the southern segment of the turnpike, where the speed limit is 65 miles per hour, 2.7 percent of black drivers identified were speeders, compared with 1.4 percent of white drivers. Among drivers going faster than 90, the disparity was even greater.
Also from the US New & World Report article:

Quote:
Killings involving a white perpetrator and a black victim are much more likely to be ruled justified than other killings. Killings with a black perpetrator and a white victim are the least likely to be ruled justified.
The hidden assumption here is that all killings are equally likely to be justified or unjustified, regardless of the race of the perpetrator or the victim. I suspect you'd find that women killing men were more likely to be ruled justifiable homicide than men killing women. Is that evidence of systemic sexist bias?

The next bit is even weaker.

Quote:
A study by Duke University researchers looked at data from more than 700 felony trials in two counties in Florida from 2000 to 2010, finding that the racial makeup of the jury and the race of the defendant influenced whether he or she was convicted.
The results were not terribly striking--yes, blacks were only 71% likely to be convicted if there was at least one black jury member, versus 81% with an all-white jury. I did find it interesting that whites (73%) were more likely than blacks (71%) to be convicted if there was a least one black jury member.

Of course, the unsupported assumption here is that the juries with at least one black member were more likely to get it right.

And later they descend into farce:

Quote:
The majority of people serving life sentences at the federal level are black, and almost half of those serving life sentences nationally are black. In some states, the percentage is even higher: In Maryland, 77.4 percent of inmates serving life sentences are black, in Georgia it’s 72 percent and for Mississippi, 71.5 percent, according to research from The Sentencing Project.
But as even the Sentencing Project admits, most (65%) of those in prison doing life are there for homicide. And homicide is the one crime the FBI reports racial breakdowns for. In 2015, blacks accounted for 53.3% of the offenders in homicides where the race of the perpetrator was known. That's nationally. So it is hardly surprising that blacks would make up an even larger percentage of the lifers in states like Maryland, Georgia and Mississippi, where they make up a much larger percentage of the overall population.

BTW, none of this justifies racism itself; to state the obvious, 99.xx percent of whites are not murderers as are 99.xx percent of blacks. But it is evidence that perhaps racial distributions in the justice system are not entirely due to bias.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 24th August 2017 at 12:10 AM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 12:10 AM   #48
Roboramma
Philosopher
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9,918
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
To discuss one with you, we need to know what you mean by racist. If we use different sources, we could be arguing past each other. I don't want to debate what racism is, I just want to use yours.
You don't need to define racism to decide that:
Quote:
a white nationalist, a white supremacist, a modern American Nazi, or any of the various other terms the racist hate groups go by
Are all the same.

Do you disagree that there is really no difference between them? If so, why?
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 03:31 AM   #49
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Evidence from Ferguson, Mo. is hardly proof of systemic bias. The US News & World Report article is interesting.
The FBI report on Ferguson shows systemic racism in action at the local level. The US News & World Report shows that it is hardly isolated. The Jeff Sessions link shows that such policies are being actively pursued in the modern-day justice system.

You can quibble with cherry-picked bits of data and hand wave all you like, but systemic racism in the justice system is not just an assumption, which was my purpose in that post. If you care to argue the history and validity of racism in the War on Drugs, fine. Take it to another thread. As I already said, I'm not derailing this one for that purpose.

If anything, you are helping me prove my overall point in this thread about language and defensiveness. As is Bob.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern

Last edited by Upchurch; 24th August 2017 at 03:33 AM.
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 05:26 AM   #50
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,823
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You don't need to define racism to decide that:

Are all the same.

Do you disagree that there is really no difference between them? If so, why?
That depends on the criteria and meadmaker needs to provide that so I can test it.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 06:27 AM   #51
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't think claiming that neo-Nazis and other racist Groups are powerless or that they aren't relevant in today's society is dangerously naive, especially considering that we are now seeing that there is an ongoing radicalization of angry young white men on the internet. This radicalization has started to become clear as journalists are looking at the people who showed up to the Charlottesville rally and finding commonalities in their stories. The US is on the verge of getting its own home-grown ISIS.
I see your point. I will ask for unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks.

Small fringe groups can indeed be troublemakers and can affect lives. Yes, terrorist organizations can be home grown, and these radicalized hate groups can do some serious damage. See Timothy McVeigh and the like. Whether it's Eric Rudolph or the Unabomber, whether left, right, or wandering in circles, this sort of radical belief can spawn some real evil in the world, and law enforcement should watch groups of crazies closely if there is the least hint that there might be people who decide to take the law into their own hands to bring about their own utopian dream, with the aid of some sort of explosives.

However, as a social force that actually shapes society, that elects legislators, that influences policy, this movement is not worth the time of day. The gathering of white supremacists in Charlottesville is proof that in a nation of 300,000,000 people, some of them are lunatics, and the internet can be used for lunatics to communicate and arrange meetings. It does not mean that the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 06:43 AM   #52
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,952
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I see your point. I will ask for unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks.

Small fringe groups can indeed be troublemakers and can affect lives. Yes, terrorist organizations can be home grown, and these radicalized hate groups can do some serious damage. See Timothy McVeigh and the like. Whether it's Eric Rudolph or the Unabomber, whether left, right, or wandering in circles, this sort of radical belief can spawn some real evil in the world, and law enforcement should watch groups of crazies closely if there is the least hint that there might be people who decide to take the law into their own hands to bring about their own utopian dream, with the aid of some sort of explosives.

However, as a social force that actually shapes society, that elects legislators, that influences policy, this movement is not worth the time of day. The gathering of white supremacists in Charlottesville is proof that in a nation of 300,000,000 people, some of them are lunatics, and the internet can be used for lunatics to communicate and arrange meetings. It does not mean that the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America.
And yet, they have an ally in the White House. They have influence in conservative media. It's really enough to look at the reactions of our own conservative posters to see that their influence streches far beyond what their actual numbers imply.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 06:44 AM   #53
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,982
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I see your point. I will ask for unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks.

Small fringe groups can indeed be troublemakers and can affect lives. Yes, terrorist organizations can be home grown, and these radicalized hate groups can do some serious damage. See Timothy McVeigh and the like. Whether it's Eric Rudolph or the Unabomber, whether left, right, or wandering in circles, this sort of radical belief can spawn some real evil in the world, and law enforcement should watch groups of crazies closely if there is the least hint that there might be people who decide to take the law into their own hands to bring about their own utopian dream, with the aid of some sort of explosives.

However, as a social force that actually shapes society, that elects legislators, that influences policy, this movement is not worth the time of day. The gathering of white supremacists in Charlottesville is proof that in a nation of 300,000,000 people, some of them are lunatics, and the internet can be used for lunatics to communicate and arrange meetings. It does not mean that the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America.
IMO you are right that the Charlottesville rally itself does not mean that "the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America".

The explicit support from The President for the Charlottesville rally (and the nod and a wink to the white supremacists, racists and Nazis) IMO does mean that "the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America".

The fact that the vast majority of nationally elected representatives form one of the two major parties has not bothered to criticise that President just increases the threat level IMO.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:01 AM   #54
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It does not mean that the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The explicit support from The President for the Charlottesville rally (and the nod and a wink to the white supremacists, racists and Nazis) IMO does mean that "the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America".
I would only quibble with the "new" part of "new threat". This is not new. This is renewed. The old racial problems in America never really went away, they just adapted. They flared more brightly during Obama's presidency, for obvious reasons, and Trump managed to tap into it.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern

Last edited by Upchurch; 24th August 2017 at 07:02 AM.
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:10 AM   #55
SOdhner
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Ive often read that it is racist to not be attracted to black women, but those same people will say it's also racist to be attracted to black women.
I'd say both can be true depending on the circumstances. Ask yourself, "would this be strange or creepy if it was about hair color?"

Like, I have heard people say they would never be attracted to a black woman in a way that they would never say about, for example, brunettes. It's fine to say "I like redheads" but if you say "I would never date a brunette, they're just not attractive" that's a really odd thing to say.

Likewise, there's a difference between finding some feature attractive and fetishizing something. I've absolutely seen various minorities fetishized by people and it's creepy as hell.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The general point, yes. But "I like black people I know personally and not black people I don't know personally" isn't racist, full stop.
Yes it is. Full stop.
Then demonstrate it.
That's a really odd request, but okay.

Just take the second half: I don't like black people that I don't know.

Okay, if you don't know them then how do you know you don't like them? You're lumping a whole group of people together based solely on race and saying you don't like them. That's literally racist.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Unless you also dislike white people you don't know personally.
Non sequitur.
No, it's not. If your default position for non-black people you don't know is "I have no opinion" but your default position for black people you don't know is "I don't like them" then you're racist. Whereas if your default position for everyone is "I don't like them" then you're a bit of a misanthrope but not racist (or at least, not racist for that particular reason).
SOdhner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:19 AM   #56
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,363
Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
That's a really odd request, but okay.
Yes, how silly of me to ask someone to demonstrate their claim on a skeptics' forum. I don't know what I was thinking!

Quote:
Just take the second half: I don't like black people that I don't know.

Okay, if you don't know them then how do you know you don't like them? You're lumping a whole group of people together based solely on race and saying you don't like them. That's literally racist.
Since the discriminating criterion between the two groups isn't race, it's not racist. That's literally not racist.

Quote:
No, it's not. If your default position for non-black people you don't know is "I have no opinion" but your default position for black people you don't know is "I don't like them" then you're racist.
That's not what you said ealier, though. The point is that your comment did not follow.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:26 AM   #57
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And yet, they have an ally in the White House. They have influence in conservative media. It's really enough to look at the reactions of our own conservative posters to see that their influence streches far beyond what their actual numbers imply.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO you are right that the Charlottesville rally itself does not mean that "the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America".

The explicit support from The President for the Charlottesville rally (and the nod and a wink to the white supremacists, racists and Nazis) IMO does mean that "the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America".

The fact that the vast majority of nationally elected representatives form one of the two major parties has not bothered to criticise that President just increases the threat level IMO.
Explicit support?
Ally in the White House?

Sorry, I don't see it.


One of the things that I think happens is that an extreme group has some sort of agenda, and anyone who shares any agenda item with that extreme group is labeled as if he supports the whole agenda of the extreme group, or is an "ally" of that group.

So, Trump supports a tough stance on illegal immigration, and I have no doubt that white supremacists agree. That doesn't make Trump a white supremacist or even an ally of white supremacists. You don't have to be a white supremacist to think that it's a bad idea to tear down statues. Saying that you think statues should not be torn down does not constitute "explicit support" for a rally of white supremacists, even if the white supremacists are complaining about removing statues. (That's the only thing I can think of that Trump said that could even come close to "explicit support" for the rally, but it wasn't actually explicit support.)

Of course, this isn't unique to one side or the other. Plenty of people will gladly call you a socialist if you support an increase in the minimum wage. It's the same phenomenon.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:31 AM   #58
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,952
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Explicit support?
Ally in the White House?

Sorry, I don't see it.
Then you're not looking.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
One of the things that I think happens is that an extreme group has some sort of agenda, and anyone who shares any agenda item with that extreme group is labeled as if he supports the whole agenda of the extreme group, or is an "ally" of that group.
Rightfully so. That's the thing with Nazis. They occupy issues. Anyone who is passionate about preserving Conservative statues will have to live with being seen on the same side of Nazis.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So, Trump supports a tough stance on illegal immigration, and I have no doubt that white supremacists agree. That doesn't make Trump a white supremacist or even an ally of white supremacists.
No, that combined with saying racist things, not calling out Nazis, employing racists and having a history of doing racist things makes him an ally of white supremacists.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You don't have to be a white supremacist to think that it's a bad idea to tear down statues. Saying that you think statues should not be torn down does not constitute "explicit support" for a rally of white supremacists, even if the white supremacists are complaining about removing statues. (That's the only thing I can think of that Trump said that could even come close to "explicit support" for the rally, but it wasn't actually explicit support.)
"There were some fine people marching there." (Approximate quote)

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Of course, this isn't unique to one side or the other. Plenty of people will gladly call you a socialist if you support an increase in the minimum wage. It's the same phenomenon.
The difference is that one of the "sides" is correct and the other isn't. As so often is the case. False equivalence is ruining public discourse.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:34 AM   #59
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,168
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ally in the White House?

Sorry, I don't see it.
The signal wasn't sent to you, but the racists certainly saw it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/346...harlottesville
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:37 AM   #60
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,997
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The signal wasn't sent to you, but the racists certainly saw it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/346...harlottesville
Which is why it worked perfectly, if gave support to the hard core racists with out alienating the base who broadly agrees with what the hard core racists want but don't want to be seen as racist.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:39 AM   #61
SOdhner
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, how silly of me to ask someone to demonstrate their claim on a skeptics' forum. I don't know what I was thinking!
It wouldn't be a strange thing to say in response to a scientific claim, but to "that's racist" it's not like they can pull out a mathematical proof or something. In fact, since it's a value judgement there's really no 'demonstration' possible. All one can do is attempt to explain the reasoning behind the value judgement, not really "demonstrate it".

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Since the discriminating criterion between the two groups isn't race, it's not racist. That's literally not racist.
Having a pre-formed negative opinion of a group of people based on race isn't racist to you? Okay. I think your definition is stupid, but as I said it's not like we can prove one definition or the other right mathematically.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's not what you said ealier, though. The point is that your comment did not follow.
I didn't say anything earlier. That was someone else. But you're quite obviously wrong to call it a non sequitur. Their point was clear and relevant, whether or not you agree.
SOdhner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:02 AM   #62
Roboramma
Philosopher
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9,918
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That depends on the criteria and meadmaker needs to provide that so I can test it.
Can you explain how it depends on the criteria? Because it seems pretty clear cut to me and not dependent upon any definition of racism.

The question isn't "are they all racist?" But rather "are they all the same?" The former question would depend on how racism is defined, but the latter clearly doesn't.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:10 AM   #63
Roboramma
Philosopher
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9,918
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The explicit support from The President for the Charlottesville rally (and the nod and a wink to the white supremacists, racists and Nazis) IMO does mean that "the civil rights of black Americans is under a new threat from a growing tide of Nazi ideology in America".
I think you can argue implicit support, but he certainly hasn't been explicit in his support.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:10 AM   #64
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The signal wasn't sent to you, but the racists certainly saw it.

But I saw it and I'm not....


....oh.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:11 AM   #65
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,413
While I deplore groups like the KKK and skinheads and similar groups I would like to point out this obvious fact. The left wing groups like Antifa and BLM are committing acts that closely resemble Hitler's brown shirt goons during the 30's and forties.

Despicable though they are the right wing groups usually obey the law at least these days. Like I said Antifa and BLM act just as bad as the right wing groupd used to.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:12 AM   #66
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think you can argue implicit support, but he certainly hasn't been explicit in his support.
Trump said some of those white supremacists are "very fine people".
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:14 AM   #67
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK
Posts: 5,360
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
While I deplore groups like the KKK and skinheads and similar groups I would like to point out this obvious fact. The left wing groups like Antifa and BLM are committing acts that closely resemble Hitler's brown shirt goons during the 30's and forties.

Despicable though they are the right wing groups usually obey the law at least these days. Like I said Antifa and BLM act just as bad as the right wing groupd used to.
They're all ass-hats to me. The far left and the far right.

They're little more than wannabe-thugs who want a fight and a spotlight to fight under. I could do without any of them crowding up my town center with their nonsense.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:15 AM   #68
Roboramma
Philosopher
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 9,918
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Trump said some of those white supremacists are "very fine people".
That sounds like the definition of implicit support to me. He hasn't said anything supporting their agenda, and saying that "some" of them are "very fine people" is pretty meaningless, but of course everyone listening will read between the lines as a gesture of support.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:18 AM   #69
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
While I deplore groups like the KKK and skinheads and similar groups I would like to point out this obvious fact. The left wing groups like Antifa and BLM are committing acts that closely resemble Hitler's brown shirt goons during the 30's and forties.
I had never heard of Antifa before Charlottesville, so I can't speak about that.

But, what in the heck are you referring to about Black Lives Matters acts that closely resemble Hitler's brownshirt goons during the 30s and 40s?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:24 AM   #70
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That sounds like the definition of implicit support to me. He hasn't said anything supporting their agenda, and saying that "some" of them are "very fine people" is pretty meaningless, but of course everyone listening will read between the lines as a gesture of support.
What would be explicit support? He brought the likes of Steve Bannon into the White House and pushed Bannon's agenda with things like the Muslim ban. Does that count?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:25 AM   #71
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,413
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Trump said some of those white supremacists are "very fine people".
Not everybody in the crowd was a skinhead or a member of the KKK. This was a free speech rally with several different groups many of whom were nonviolent and not racial biggos.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #72
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,982
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Not everybody in the crowd was a skinhead or a member of the KKK. This was a free speech rally with several different groups many of whom were nonviolent and not racial biggos.
People who are not racial bigots stuck around while other people in the rally where waving Nazi/Confederate flags and chanting Nazi slogans? I find that really hard to believe, unless you're referring to counter-protestors. Do you have any support for that?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #73
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think you can argue implicit support, but he certainly hasn't been explicit in his support.
Yes.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:40 AM   #74
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What would be explicit support? He brought the likes of Steve Bannon into the White House and pushed Bannon's agenda with things like the Muslim ban. Does that count?
Explicit support of the rally would be "I support the rally".

The word "explicit" has a meaning in the dictionary.

The "fine people on both sides" line comes kind of close to explicit support, in that it is an explicit statement, and it supports some of the people, but even that is not explicit support for the rally. If I say, "There are good people who disagree with me about this important issue," I am giving explicit support to the people, but not to their position.

I think Trump is a buffoon who shoots off his mouth, does not choose his words carefully, and never, ever, admits he made a mistake. I doubt he had even paid attention to the right wing side of the rally. I think what he meant was that there are good people who oppose removal of Robert E. Lee statues.

In my opinion, Trump was wrong about "good people" on the rally side. I think the core of that rally was so scary that if any good people did show up to it, they would have run away, not wishing to be associated with the white supremacists.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:44 AM   #75
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
They're all ass-hats to me. The far left and the far right.

They're little more than wannabe-thugs who want a fight and a spotlight to fight under. I could do without any of them crowding up my town center with their nonsense.
That's pretty much my opinion as well.

There were wannabe-thugs chanting for a very bad cause, and wannabe-thugs chanting to oppose a very bad cause, but if they were carrying clubs, that makes them not so good, in my opinion.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:50 AM   #76
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Aigburth, Liverpool, UK
Posts: 5,360
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's pretty much my opinion as well.

There were wannabe-thugs chanting for a very bad cause, and wannabe-thugs chanting to oppose a very bad cause, but if they were carrying clubs, that makes them not so good, in my opinion.
Exactly. People tend to forget or ignore the fact that it doesn't matter what you're fighting for, if you're fighting period, then you're likely a dick with too much time on your hands.

Whether you're a white-nationalist with a Nazi slogan, or a bandanna-wearing hooded counter-protester, you're an ass-hat who needs to get a grip of your life and go home.

Nothing gets solved when you're battling it out on the streets. No side will suddenly change their position because you chuck a rock at their head. You're basically just being a nuisance for everyone else and ruining your own town.

What's really funny is that most of these people are generally softly-spoken and timid people, left or right, who suddenly get their Popeye muscles when they're surrounded by their own kind.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 08:52 AM   #77
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Rightfully so. That's the thing with Nazis. They occupy issues. Anyone who is passionate about preserving Conservative statues will have to live with being seen on the same side of Nazis.
I wouldn't say that I am passionate about preserving Conservative statues, but in previous threads, I was passionate about preserving Confederate flags attached to gravestones of Confederate soldiers. So am I on the same side as the Nazis? I guess on one issue, I probably am.

But is it "rightful" that I am then labeled as supporting part of the Nazi agenda, or that I am an ally of Nazis?

Well, I don't want to get dragged down into an argument about the semantics of the word "ally", but if you are a politician looking for my vote, don't think you can count on me to dismantle the EEOC just because I want some old lady to be allowed to put a Confederate flag on her great-grandfather's grave. It just isn't the same thing.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 09:01 AM   #78
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 6,210
We function as social animals based on theory of mind, allowing prediction and interpretation of behavior based on what one knows about one's own motivations. Recognition of others as such, while not unique to humans, is required for social interaction. In this case, others are simply similar autonomous agents, not necessarily same to oneself in all attributes, only same in basic nature (same species, and agents with own motives). So, the terms one might consider are:

Bigotry: Not recognizing the validity of another seat of preference (agent) based on any criteria except that of not being of the same species. IOW, literally dehumanizing others.

Racism: bigotry based on race.

Tribalism: bigotry based on peer group. Can be racist or not.

Nationalism: tribalism based on country/region

Ethnocentrism: tribalism based on culture

Prudism: bigotry based on sexual preference.

Ignorism: bigotry only an ISFer can know and love/hate


ETA: So, Charlottesville bad guys were, OMG, all of the above, except the last.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time videogaming.

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 24th August 2017 at 09:05 AM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 09:07 AM   #79
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,997
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Not everybody in the crowd was a skinhead or a member of the KKK. This was a free speech rally with several different groups many of whom were nonviolent and not racial biggos.
No it was a white nationalism rally. Everyone there was there to hear people like Richard Spencer give a talk. Why would people who are not white nationalists go to a rally for white nationalism?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 09:08 AM   #80
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,997
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Exactly. People tend to forget or ignore the fact that it doesn't matter what you're fighting for, if you're fighting period, then you're likely a dick with too much time on your hands.

Whether you're a white-nationalist with a Nazi slogan, or a bandanna-wearing hooded counter-protester, you're an ass-hat who needs to get a grip of your life and go home.

Nothing gets solved when you're battling it out on the streets. No side will suddenly change their position because you chuck a rock at their head. You're basically just being a nuisance for everyone else and ruining your own town.

What's really funny is that most of these people are generally softly-spoken and timid people, left or right, who suddenly get their Popeye muscles when they're surrounded by their own kind.
And why we need to stop pretending Martin Luther King was anything more than the thug everyone knew he was at the time.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.