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Old 25th August 2017, 07:18 AM   #161
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
And at the base of your argument, you are simply wrong in the premise. There is no evidence, or logic, to the idea that physically attacking these groups is deterring their behavior or minimizing their reach. It is having the exact opposite effect.

But this approach worked so well last time around.

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Last edited by d4m10n; 25th August 2017 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:20 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
How about an overweight white woman with a southern drawl starring in a film as Micheal Jackson?
Is she the best actor available for the part? Then no.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:21 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
To more directly get back to the OP, I think there are issues with grouping every group together. Especially currently where they attach themselves to other movements, and then allow people to use the most extreme elements of these groups to dehumanize and attack without thought anyone on the opposing side. I hate slippery slope arguments but having violence against any group become the norm, and then having that's groups membership be expanded arbitrarily by location, shared interest in any way, political party, etc is a problem.

We saw the violence against Trump supporters. We have seen the violence against students looking to hear conservative speakers. When you see the jump made from 'punching Nazi's in the face is fine' to 'punching conservatives in the face is fine', you can see there is a problem.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. I most certainly agree that lumping conservatives in with neo-Nazis is a problem. I don't even like calling the white supremacist/Nazis/whatever "right wing", because it suggests that there is something more than an historical connection. "Alt-right" at least suggests that there is a difference between those people and the ordinary right.

However, when it comes to lumping the KKK, white supremacists, white nationalists, and neo-Nazis, I'm ok with that. They are all cut from the same cloth and their differences are less than their similarities.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:22 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Because compelling implies convincing.
A) I don't think it does.

B) convincing is a skill of the actor.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:23 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes to people wearing hoods, I'm not sure if I like black hoods any better than white.

If you can't show your face, you're probably up to no good.
Exactly. There's this idea that violence is okay if it's violence against fascists. It's incredibly ironic and is something that basically keeps the violence going.

I frankly don't care whether these people kill each other. The world will be a lighter place without their ass-hattery.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Is it? So you're going to be out in the streets with a stick in your hand and a mask covering your face? lol.

I'd rather enjoy my life and deal with my family's real-world problems than pretend to be a justice warrior doing battle on the streets.
Me too.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:25 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes to people wearing hoods, I'm not sure if I like black hoods any better than white.

If you can't show your face, you're probably up to no good.
So show your face.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:26 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Me too.
So why the talk of having to pick sides? This isn't my battle, and frankly, it shouldn't be expected to be my battle.

If you give me a vote, I'll vote for whatever you like with regards to people and their rights, but other than that, I don't view the left or the right with any fond regard.

Life's tough enough without fighting silly little battles for other people.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:26 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
But this approach worked so well last time around.
Hmmm....you just linked to a story about an incident where Nazis with a permit were attacked by communists. This led to a lot of violence and significant bloodshed. The next year, the Nazis were in charge.


We don't know what would have happened if the communists had just kind of backed off, maybe made a few signs, but generally left the SA alone except for a bit of mockery, but it could hardly have turned out any worse.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 25th August 2017 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:28 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hmmm....you just linked to a story about an incident where Nazis with a permit were attacked by communists. This led to a lot of violence and significant bloodshed. The next year, the Nazis were in charge.
Damn it all my sarcasm tags didn't work.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:28 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
So why the talk of having to pick sides? This isn't my battle, and frankly, it shouldn't be expected to be my battle.
It's everyone's battle who don't want fascism to come back in fashion.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
If you give me a vote, I'll vote for whatever you like with regards to people and their rights, but other than that, I don't view the left or the right with any fond regard.
And that's part of the problem. You are part of the problem.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:31 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
So you are no longer selecting on race but on a holistic view of who is better suited to the role?
Yeah, duh.

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Would Denzel be a better Caesar than me or not? It's not a trick question.
It is a trick question: we're not comparing people who wouldn't even make it to the casting process with people excluded from the casting process.

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Well nobody cared when for example Timothy Dalton played Caesar that he was a 6'2 man "pretending" to be a 5'7 man.
And?

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No you want a semblance of historical accuracy on certain things and not others.
Wrong, as I indicated about height. There's some leeway, obviously, otherwise we'd have to find an exact clone. But there's taller, and there's too tall. How tall is too tall depends on the people doing the casting, but it's not unjustified to discriminate against tall people in this instance.

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You couldn't care less that a tall white man pretended to be a shorter white man.
A lie, considering I've argued the exact opposite.

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And in any case this wasn't the example you gave. Preferring to cast someone who looks like Julius Caesar for the role of Julius Caesar is not the same thing as outright refusing to cast a black man for the role.
It really is.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:32 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Damn it all my sarcasm tags didn't work.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure which direction the sarcasm was supposed to go.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:32 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's everyone's battle who don't want fascism to come back in fashion.
Is it? You gonna pay me for my time, then? What about the fight against ISIS and other groups who would seek to harm our culture, black and white? Should I also fight them?



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And that's part of the problem. You are part of the problem.
I could honestly care less. I work a hard job, I have a family that needs me, and that's life, mate. I value my life and the life of my family over this nonsensical battle that you wage in your imagination with fascism.

I don't need to prove my disgust for fascism by going out into the streets with a mohawk and a pocket-full of projectiles.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:33 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And yet again you edited out the bit that directly referred to the point you are making.
Because we can't agree on the first and most fundamental thing. Everything else is pointless, as I've said before. You've ignored the bit in italics. That's not helpful or honest.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:35 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And yet again you edited out the bit that directly referred to the point you are making. That's not helpful or honest.
Yeah, he doesn't seem to want to actually engage. But that's fine, at this point I consider the issue answered. His definition of racism is inconsistent, uselessly narrow, and sometimes nonsensical - but he's not going to change it and I've at least nailed down his "logic". There's no point in continuing the discussion any further.

To address the point that this got spun off of, yes clearly we could benefit from some more nuanced definitions of racism, but:
1. That's not going to happen.
2. Even if it did people would still bend over backwards to make sure none of them could apply to them or otherwise argue about them.

The best we can do is try to be detailed in our accusations, although even that won't make many people happy.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:35 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Is it? You gonna pay me for my time, then? What about the fight against ISIS and other groups who would seek to harm our culture, black and white? Should I also fight them?
If you have an uncle spewing ISIS rhethoric, you should stand up to him. If you have friends who say "Well, I'm no Islamic extremist, but I don't particularly like infidels", you should say something. If ISIS holds a march in your town, you should come out and protest against them. Because, even if you aren't the prefered target for ISIS, someone else is, and as a society, we need to stand up for each other.




Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I could honestly care less. I work a hard job, I have a family that needs me, and that's life, mate. I value my life and the life of my family over this nonsensical battle that you wage in your imagination with fascism.

I don't need to prove my disgust for fascism by going out into the streets with a mohawk and a pocket-full of projectiles.

No. Going out onto the streets to protest and show support is enough. Your privilege shines through your argument.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:36 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Yeah, he doesn't seem to want to actually engage.
Could you be any more dishonest? I've been engaging with you and many more posters for several pages now. That I chose to engage what I consider to be relevant and leave the rest out doesn't magically make me not engaging anymore.

What a load of crap.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:39 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure which direction the sarcasm was supposed to go.
Added a winking emoji to alleviate confusion.

In all seriousness, though, Nazis fighting Commies in the streets was perfectly common in the early 1930s. It didn't have effects the intended by the anti-fascist movement at the time. Why should we expect it to work now?
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:42 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If you have an uncle spewing ISIS rhethoric, you should stand up to him. If you have friends who say "Well, I'm no Islamic extremist, but I don't particularly like infidels", you should say something. If ISIS holds a march in your town, you should come out and protest against them. Because, even if you aren't the prefered target for ISIS, someone else is, and as a society, we need to stand up for each other.
Luckily, I don't associate with anyone who holds any IS rhetoric or fascist rhetoric. I live in one of the most multi-cultured cities in the UK, and probably in Europe. We have some of the oldest, if not the oldest, Caribbean, Chinese and Indian populations in Europe. I work with people from all walks of life, and don't tend to see much racism in my day-to-day activities.

I agree, if a march for the weird ideals of IS were to take place, people should show their displeasure, which is why I find it ironic that you never really see any AntiFa or counter-protesters at Speakers Corner when the Choudrey's of the world take a moment to spew bile.

Unfortunately, it's my job to control such marches, not take part in them.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. Going out onto the streets to protest and show support is enough. Your privilege shines through your argument.
What "privilege" would that be, then? So you're out on the streets marching, then? You're on here a lot, and you're presumably marching a lot, so do you have a girlfriend, or a wife? How about a job?
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:44 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Surreal. That's all I can say. I'm not even sure I believe you.
That is a fancy technique. Simply reject the opposition position by saying you don't believe it.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:44 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It didn't have effects the intended by the anti-fascist movement at the time. Why should we expect it to work now?
It never works. Nobody is going to change their outlook on life because you boot them in the noggin.

There will never be peace among men, and to expect there to be is to ignore human nature.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:58 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm not sure what you are getting at. I most certainly agree that lumping conservatives in with neo-Nazis is a problem. I don't even like calling the white supremacist/Nazis/whatever "right wing", because it suggests that there is something more than an historical connection. "Alt-right" at least suggests that there is a difference between those people and the ordinary right.

However, when it comes to lumping the KKK, white supremacists, white nationalists, and neo-Nazis, I'm ok with that. They are all cut from the same cloth and their differences are less than their similarities.
I understand your view but I disagree with any unnecessary grouping. It is done with a purpose, and the purpose is not to lump only those groups.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:59 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
How about an overweight white woman with a southern drawl starring in a film as Micheal Jackson?
So for myself, this gets into a complicated place. That's because racism is complicated, and art is complicated, and nothing exists in a vacuum. I'm going to mention a few of the things that impact my feelings on this, but due to the complexity I won't be trying to nail down specific "rules" or whatever.

1. Due to the history of theater versus the history of film I tend to give theater much more leeway in casting before I assume there's a specific motivation for it. If the actor on a stage doesn't match the character they're playing, I don't usually bat an eye. In a movie, I tend to assume there's some specific motivation.

2. There's a long history of things in film being skewed towards white people: in the creation of characters, the casting of those characters, and the treatment of those characters. Because of this and other ingrained racist aspects of our society I look at a white person playing a black character and a black person playing a white character very differently.

3. I find Southern drawls hugely distracting.

4. I do, usually, expect there to be some attempt to broadly match the actor to the character if that character is supposed to be a real person that actually existed. As I mentioned, I cut theater WAY more slack there for whatever reason (I think in part it may be that theater just generally requires more details to be filled in from your imagination anyway - I also am fine with theater having incomplete or implied sets for example).

5. If the specific character was the victim of racism, I find it in bad taste to have them played by someone of the race that was primarily responsible for said racism.

6. If the director is doing this on purpose to send some sort of message, I may or may not like it depending on what that message is and how well they send it. I mean... that's art in general.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:11 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
If you give me a vote, I'll vote for whatever you like with regards to people and their rights, but other than that, I don't view the left or the right with any fond regard.
This.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:16 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post

It is a trick question: we're not comparing people who wouldn't even make it to the casting process with people excluded from the casting process.
Or to paraphrase I would cast a black man for the role if the black man was noticeably superior to the other options I had.

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It really is.
No it really isn't. As you see above.

If you say you will never cast a black man as Caesar then you are excluding them from the consideration set. If you say you would prefer to cast someone who looks like Caesar in the role then you are saying that a black man could get the part if he was better than the other options.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:23 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Everything supposedly provides indirect support for white supremacists, which I find hilariously pathetic, tbh. I got called a racist because I gave legit reasons for why AntiFa members find themselves getting arrested at protests. We live in delicate times.

Ignoring fascism --and any form of tyranny and oppression -- encourages it. Gives it space to grow and spread. It's tacit approval, or at least seen and treated as such. That has been demonstrated throughout history. Ask the Jews and Romani and queers how well that worked out for them in 1930s Germany. "First they came for the Socialists...".

Yes, we certainly live in delicate times. We live in times where black and hispanic people can be harassed, assaulted, and murdered with near-impunity by anyone carrying a badge and wearing a uniform. We live in times where police have a license to steal from the people anything they want without repercussions. We live in a time where people can openly advocate the oppression or outright genocide of another people not only without repercussion, but with the full support of the highest office in the land, but also with the tacit support of the general population who prefers to turn a blind eye, and attacks anything that threatens to break them out of their comfort zone.

We live in a time where people who are resisting oppressors and murderers, who are fighting for their very lives, are marginalized and told that their attempts at defending themselves make them as bad as the people who are trying to destroy them.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that fighting in the streets and endangering your own and other people's lives is not the way to go, regardless of who you are, what country you're from, or what you believe in.

Endanger their lives? These peoples's lives are already in danger. They are being harassed daily. They are being falsely imprisoned daily. They are being murdered daily. They are being raped daily. They are being oppressed and denied basic human rights and decency daily. What do you expect them to do? What form of self-defense do you find legitimate for people who are routinely treated as less than human by the same culture you sit safely in not having to worry about any of this?

Quote:
What does fighting in the streets honestly achieve?

According to history? Change. Profound and enduring change. The Civil Rights era was full of fighting in the streets. Stonewall was fighting in the streets. Every single fight against oppression, against tyranny, against genocide, has been fighting in the streets.

If the government is oppressive, or turns a blind eye to oppression, what else is left? Passive resistance only works if your opponent has a conscience, if your opponent is moral and willing to consider you fully human and deserving of equal rights. Do you believe any of that describes neo-nazis or Ku Klux Klansmen? Because if you do, you're clearly, painfully ignorant of the reality.

Quote:
It generally just makes matters worse and nothing gets resolved.

Again, all of history demonstrates otherwise.

Quote:
I'm not for or against anyone's right to protest, I could care less whether the blacks, gays or Nazi's want to march, as long as they do it sensibly and peacefully. Nobody is telling anyone to "know their place," certainly not me.

And it's precisely this sort of policing that marginalizes and dismisses the plight of oppressed minorities.

You may not want to accept it, but as long as you are telling them that they're not allowed to be disruptive to straight white society, as long as you tell them that you'll only consider their protests valid if they are passive and peaceful, as long as they meet your arbitrary standards of "civilization", you are very much telling them, in every meaningful sense of the term, that they need to "know their place" and stay in it. And that place is not disturbing the delicate sensibilities of straight white society.

As long as they know their place, keep their heads down, and don't disrupt mainstream straight white society, then society has no reason at all to consider their position, or accede to their demands. If they are not causing trouble, then there's no reason that society has to consider them at all. Decades of Jim Crow proved that quite ably.

Quote:
Being that it is my job to work at such rallies providing security, I could honestly care less who believes in what, or why. My concern is directed towards everyone doing their thing in a calm and controlled manner.

Congratulations to you for having the privileged position that you can think that way and not have to worry about being oppressed, harassed, or killed. Not everyone has that privilege. These are people who are not only fighting for their rights, they are fighting for their lives, and it's not on them to coddle your delicate sense of "civilization".

A truly "civilized" society is one where minorities would not be marginalized, would not be oppressed, would not be treated as second class citizens, would not be subjected to terrorism not only from radical fringe groups, but from official institutions. A truly "civilized" society would be one where such people would be free to air their grievances and have the assurance that those grievances would be addressed, and they would not be punished for airing them.

It's quite clear that we do not yet live in a "civilized" society; and any assertions of "they need to be civilized" is nothing but support for the status quo by those who benefit from it.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:23 AM   #188
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While I find the 'nobody got anywhere by fighting in the streets' narrative convincing it seems to be equally countered by pointing out that 'nobody got anywhere by peacefully protesting' either.

It appears to me that quite often when there is change it is either glacially slow and brought about largely on the whim of someone in power or its forced upon people in a reaction to circumstances that have gotten out of control, often with a bit of violence thrown in for good measure.

So I'm not really sure where I stand on that.

Nazi, fascists, racists and religious bigots of whatever flavour marching through your town are not simply expressing their freedom of speech they are intimidating and harassing the people who are the victims of their warped views.

A peaceful counter protest doesn't redress that balance.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:24 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Can you name them? I'd like to know who you regard as being sympathetic to fascists. Tread carefully, son.

Everyone who says opposing them in self-defense and defense of the oppressed is invalid if it in any way disrupts the status quo.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:24 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Or to paraphrase I would cast a black man for the role if the black man was noticeably superior to the other options I had.
I know that's what you meant, but you're not going to run out of white actors for the part. MY point is that Denzel wouldn't even apply for the role, and you're not an actor.

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No it really isn't. As you see above.
Ok I guess you're right.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:26 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
While I find the 'nobody got anywhere by fighting in the streets' narrative convincing it seems to be equally countered by pointing out that 'nobody got anywhere by peacefully protesting' either.

It appears to me that quite often when there is change it is either glacially slow and brought about largely on the whim of someone in power or its forced upon people in a reaction to circumstances that have gotten out of control, often with a bit of violence thrown in for good measure.

So I'm not really sure where I stand on that.

Nazi, fascists, racists and religious bigots of whatever flavour marching through your town are not simply expressing their freedom of speech they are intimidating and harassing the people who are the victims of their warped views.

A peaceful counter protest doesn't redress that balance.
I don't think anyone will get anywhere, regardless.

People will always differ on the things that they believe. As long as there's a bunch of people around, there'll be differences on literally every aspect of life.

It's how it's always been. The difference is that some people can learn to live together, and others can't.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:35 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Your right, there is a difference. Beliefs are not against the law in this country. Physical violence against others is.

Fetishizing the law is the resort of those who benefit from the status quo and don't want it challenged.

At one point in time in this country, black people sitting at the same place as white people, drinking from the same water fountains, and working the same jobs was against the law. By your argument, the Civil Rights protests were illegitimate, because they were against the law at the time. The GW Bush administration tried to make protesting at all illegal, and partially succeeded, so by your argument, those peaceful protests should not have happened, because they were illegal.

This country has long held that force used in self-defense is legitimate; and right now many people are fighting for their lives against a movement that is openly terrorizing them, against a government whose institutions are openly oppressing and terrorizing them, against a police force that is openly murdering them with near-impunity.

This is a fight for self-defense, but those who support the status quo won't recognize that, because it offends their sense of complacency.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

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And at the base of your argument, you are simply wrong in the premise. There is no evidence, or logic, to the idea that physically attacking these groups is deterring their behavior or minimizing their reach. It is having the exact opposite effect.

Nope, we have all of history to demonstrate that it does, in fact, deter their behaviour. The problem right now, is that they have open approval from the highest office in the land, and they are using that approval to justify their openly terrorizing minorities. Attacking them is not encouraging them, it is defending against them. In the US alone we have the evidence of the Civil Rights era to say that you're wrong. More recently, we have the ani-nazi Punk movement to say that you're wrong.

"The opposition is just as bad" is just more fascist propaganda intended to delegitimize their opponents and cast themselves as the victims. And you're buying into and regurgitating that propaganda.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:40 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
"Alt-right" at least suggests that there is a difference between those people and the ordinary right.

Do you know who coined the term "Alt-Right"? A neo-nazi by the name of Richard Spencer, precisely to legitimize themselves by associating with conservatives.

You know what the reaction to that was from conservatives? Overwhelming silence, followed by tacit approval from the sitting President and his cronies, followed by MAGA conservatives happy to march side by side with neo-nazis, with the KKK, and with other white supremacists at "Unite the Right" rallies.

The current presidential administration has been perfectly happy to legitimize the "alt-right" as part of his support base as long as it keeps him in power, and he continues to legitimize the "fine people" marching with fascists and white nationalists.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:45 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I don't need to prove my disgust for fascism by going out into the streets with a mohawk and a pocket-full of projectiles.

But you can prove your disgust for fascism by not dismissing and denigrating those who are fighting to protect themselves and others against the threat of fascism and nazi-ism, and by not engaging in apologetics for the status quo that is allowing and even encouraging the fascists to grow and spread.

If you can't fight for freedom and civil rights, you can at least express support for those who do. Otherwise, you're part of the problem.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Ignoring fascism --and any form of tyranny and oppression -- encourages it. Gives it space to grow and spread. It's tacit approval, or at least seen and treated as such. That has been demonstrated throughout history. Ask the Jews and Romani and queers how well that worked out for them in 1930s Germany. "First they came for the Socialists...".
Who said I was ignoring it? I said it doesn't concern me, meaning, it's not my job to be out there every day marching with a bunch of people. Where does it end? Should I join in every march that people would view as being a good and justified cause? I don't have time for that, or interest. If I personally encounter ignorance, then yeah, I deal with it, otherwise, I'm not interested. To each, his own.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yes, we certainly live in delicate times. We live in times where black and hispanic people can be harassed, assaulted, and murdered with near-impunity by anyone carrying a badge and wearing a uniform. We live in times where police have a license to steal from the people anything they want without repercussions. We live in a time where people can openly advocate the oppression or outright genocide of another people not only without repercussion, but with the full support of the highest office in the land, but also with the tacit support of the general population who prefers to turn a blind eye, and attacks anything that threatens to break them out of their comfort zone.
I live in Liverpool, England, mate, a place where some of the most under-funded areas are predominantly white, but nobody seems to be too concerned about that. We come from Irish families who had sod-all, and came into England as "idiotic monkeys," forced to work for a pittance. You don't need to tell me about such things. I'm all too aware of the situations around the world, and in my own city. My boxing club opens its doors to all people, from all walks of life, no discrimination. We have poor black kids from Toxteth and Granby, and we have poor white kids from Garston and Speke.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
We live in a time where people who are resisting oppressors and murderers, who are fighting for their very lives, are marginalized and told that their attempts at defending themselves make them as bad as the people who are trying to destroy them.
We live in terrible times, as have most generations. I only need to go into town on a Saturday night to see supposedly "privileged" white people sleeping on the streets. I'm not seeing the black oppression in the UK that you talk about in the US, I see oppression of the poor, regardless of colour.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Endanger their lives? These peoples's lives are already in danger. They are being harassed daily. They are being falsely imprisoned daily. They are being murdered daily. They are being raped daily. They are being oppressed and denied basic human rights and decency daily. What do you expect them to do? What form of self-defense do you find legitimate for people who are routinely treated as less than human by the same culture you sit safely in not having to worry about any of this?
The very notion of self-defense is to protect yourself from harm in a situation where there is no other option. Putting yourself in harm's way isn't the same as being targeted. The first rule of any good self-defense is to stay out of trouble. The same culture I sit safely in? I'm not sure if you have much of a clue about the UK, mate, or the history of my city, but I'm not some privileged safe white man, lol. Behave.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
According to history? Change. Profound and enduring change. The Civil Rights era was full of fighting in the streets. Stonewall was fighting in the streets. Every single fight against oppression, against tyranny, against genocide, has been fighting in the streets.

If the government is oppressive, or turns a blind eye to oppression, what else is left? Passive resistance only works if your opponent has a conscience, if your opponent is moral and willing to consider you fully human and deserving of equal rights. Do you believe any of that describes neo-nazis or Ku Klux Klansmen? Because if you do, you're clearly, painfully ignorant of the reality.
Yeah, lots of people died for what? You talk about me as though I'm in an ivory tower of safety and security, and you have the balls to suggest that I'm painfully ignorant of reality, lulz.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Again, all of history demonstrates otherwise.




And it's precisely this sort of policing that marginalizes and dismisses the plight of oppressed minorities.
is it, really?

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You may not want to accept it, but as long as you are telling them that they're not allowed to be disruptive to straight white society, as long as you tell them that you'll only consider their protests valid if they are passive and peaceful, as long as they meet your arbitrary standards of "civilization", you are very much telling them, in every meaningful sense of the term, that they need to "know their place" and stay in it. And that place is not disturbing the delicate sensibilities of straight white society.
You, and other posters, have a weird tendency to just assume facts without even knowing whether they're correct or not. Who here has told anyone that they're not allowed to be disruptive? I basically work in a position, as I've mentioned like ten times, where I have to deal with anyone who is acting in a violent manner. You don't seem to get that. I'm talking from the perspective of a person who is paid to make sure said rallies are not out of control, regardless of who is marching.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As long as they know their place, keep their heads down, and don't disrupt mainstream straight white society, then society has no reason at all to consider their position, or accede to their demands. If they are not causing trouble, then there's no reason that society has to consider them at all. Decades of Jim Crow proved that quite ably.
I don't care what they do, as long as they're not causing havoc in the streets. I'd be out of a job if I sat idly by and applauded every kid in a camo-jacket chucking a bottle at a cop.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Congratulations to you for having the privileged position that you can think that way and not have to worry about being oppressed, harassed, or killed. Not everyone has that privilege. These are people who are not only fighting for their rights, they are fighting for their lives, and it's not on them to coddle your delicate sense of "civilization".

A truly "civilized" society is one where minorities would not be marginalized, would not be oppressed, would not be treated as second class citizens, would not be subjected to terrorism not only from radical fringe groups, but from official institutions. A truly "civilized" society would be one where such people would be free to air their grievances and have the assurance that those grievances would be addressed, and they would not be punished for airing them.

It's quite clear that we do not yet live in a "civilized" society; and any assertions of "they need to be civilized" is nothing but support for the status quo by those who benefit from it.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about re: my supposedly privileged life, mate, lol, that much is clear. There is no ivory tower here, maybe in the states, but not for me. It took "my people" nigh-on 30 years to exonerate our dead children in the eyes of the media and most of the UK from a hate-campaign devised by the Yorkshire police and a notorious tabloid paper. Don't tell me about privilege, fella.

I'm all for equality, and have never once ever claimed to be against it, and I won't sit here and be talked down to by anyone who feels that they're on some personal quest to right some wrongs that they're probably not even responsible for, lol.

I do my own bit, don't you worry. I've offered my boxing club to anyone on here, if anyone ever wants to come down and see what we do for our community, black and white, and what we do for charity. So all of this whiney "privilege" talk is nothing more than poorly executed guilt-speech.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:47 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Everyone thinks they're good.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:49 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In all seriousness, though, Nazis fighting Commies in the streets was perfectly common in the early 1930s. It didn't have effects the intended by the anti-fascist movement at the time. Why should we expect it to work now?

That's because the German government was controlled by those who were fascist-leaning and virulently anti-communist; and who supported the fascists, tacitly at first, then openly later, and deliberately installed a violently fascist leadership.

One can hope that the American government has still not descended to that point, and that fighting the fascists can still have a positive effect the way that fighting the resurgence of the KKK did in the '20s, and fighting racists did in the '50s and '60s. Or is everyone so ignorant of history that they forget about those times?
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:51 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I said it doesn't concern me, meaning, it's not my job to be out there every day marching with a bunch of people.

[snip]

So all of this whiney "privilege" talk is nothing more than poorly executed guilt-speech.

Thank you for so effectively proving my point.

How are you enjoying UKIP over there?
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:52 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But you can prove your disgust for fascism by not dismissing and denigrating those who are fighting to protect themselves and others against the threat of fascism and nazi-ism, and by not engaging in apologetics for the status quo that is allowing and even encouraging the fascists to grow and spread.

If you can't fight for freedom and civil rights, you can at least express support for those who do. Otherwise, you're part of the problem.
Who have I dismissed? I'm clearly telling you that I have no qualms about anything that anybody wants to do.

I'm giving my opinion on these acts of violence, which I think is stupid, and not necessary.

Being that my job is in security, you can use your own common-sense to determine where my priorities lie, and it isn't on the left or the right.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:52 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Everyone things they're good.

I wondered how long it would take before someone trotted out this well-worn and intellectually and morally dishonest trope. Congratulations.
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