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Old 25th August 2017, 02:20 PM   #281
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm sorry, but this might just be the dumbest post in the thread. Nobody's asking you to work for a communist takeover. We are asking you to stand up to casual racism that you might encounter in your own life, and to at least make an attempt to understand why BLM and Antifa are doing what they are doing.
I've been seeing a lot of dumb posts in this thread, but not by Meadmaker. You're presenting a false dilemma - one can stand up to casual racism that they might encounter in their own life, and still realize that Antifa and BLM largely consist of violent agitators.

Quote:
White supremacists don't matter to you, because... wait for it... YOU'RE WHITE. They're not after you.
Says you. Based on nothing but....?

I'll take Meadmakers word for why he said he's not overly concerned. And I'll agree, white skin and all. Weren't there only something on the order of 500 white supremacists at the huge rally in Charlottesville?
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:26 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I read the words you type, but you seem to not even understand what you yourself are saying.
I understand what I'm saying perfectly well, it's just that you tend to take what I say and add your own ignorant context, which is highly ironic, given that you fancy yourself as the resident justice-warrior.

See, this is the problem with people of your ilk, not the genuine ones, but the ones who are out for attention, they tend to contradict their own beliefs and arguments on an almost daily basis.

You have been given the posts that you misinterpreted, and yet you've ignored them and keep spewing the same drivel about what you think I'm saying.

Don't assume so much.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:27 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I understand what I'm saying perfectly well, it's just that you tend to take what I say and add your own ignorant context, which is highly ironic, given that you fancy yourself as the resident justice-warrior.

See, this is the problem with people of your ilk, not the genuine ones, but the ones who are out for attention, they tend to contradict their own beliefs and arguments on an almost daily basis.

You have been given the posts that you misinterpreted, and yet you've ignored them and keep spewing the same drivel about what you think I'm saying.

Don't assume so much.
Quote the post where you have given me the posts that I misinterpreted.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:31 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, because it's in your head. You're not oppressed. You're just not good enough.
No, white people can't ever be oppressed, because we're all devils in the eyes of folk like you, eh? lol.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Fallacy of perfection. Look it up, or wallow in ignorance.
Translation: I don't want to have to deal with the messy argument pertaining to inconsistencies in my beliefs, so...erm...look this term up!


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You have a problem with honesty, or a problem reading words?
Why're you repeating yourself all the time? You've been told that you've made several lies, by more than one person in this thread, and you keep avoiding it.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Your cheerleaders are saying that, yes. You know, the ones who would never support you because you're not ethnic enough.

ETA: And anyone can go through our conversation and read what I have written and how I have quoted you correctly at every turn. I don't think I've ever ran into this kind of dishonesty on this forum before, and we've had some dishonest posters here.
What does it have to do with quoting? You know fully-well that what I'm talking about is your obviously fraudulent twisting of my posts, making out like I'm claiming something I never once claimed. You did it before when you said that I didn't care about how others feel, because I've been racially abused, and that other people should "suck it up," have you forgotten about that one single post in which you made up some fictitious nonsense?

Disingenuous.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:35 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Bad theater? No, not much.
I don't think James Earl Jones playing Hamlet would be so bad, but your standards may be higher than mine.

It's not like I'm saying we should allow girls to play Peter Pan, for christ's sake.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:39 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Oh yeah, it's a safe bet that everyone at the rally was in favour of memorializing and/or extending white supremacy.
And some of them are "good people".
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:44 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I mean, I know you're lying, you know you're lying, even your cheerleaders know you're lying, but it will be amusing to watch you flail a bit more.
Cheerleader here. It's you who is lying. You're doing what all fanatic SJW bigots do. Contort what people say to paint it in the most unflattering way so you can justify being offended and give legitimacy to your sense of poutrage. I would take consolation in the fact that you guys are loosing, but since that means people like Donald Trump are winning, I don't.

We're all **********.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:56 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I've been seeing a lot of dumb posts in this thread, but not by Meadmaker. You're presenting a false dilemma - one can stand up to casual racism that they might encounter in their own life, and still realize that Antifa and BLM largely consist of violent agitators.

White supremacists don't matter to you, because... wait for it... YOU'RE WHITE. They're not after you.

I'll take Meadmakers word for why he said he's not overly concerned. And I'll agree, white skin and all. Weren't there only something on the order of 500 white supremacists at the huge rally in Charlottesville?
I'm sure that he thinks you're bigoted for being bold enough to think such a logical thing.

Anyone who isn't out in the streets, drunk, and waving planks of wood around in the air, is a Nazi sympathizer.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:57 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I notice you completely ignored anything that actually provided evidence, including the article I linked to, twice.
Do you truly believe that individual events such as these count as evidence for systematic, institutionalised oppression? I've already addressed that in this thread: it serves to show that crimes like these occur. They don't show what you claim.

It's confirmation bias, plain and simple. You can't provide evidence for your claim so you rely on single events without bothering to connect them to the claim, hoping no one will notice, because that's how you make those connections: of course there's systematic institutionalised oppression; I mean, look at this one time where Nazis killed someone! It wouldn't convince you coming from any woo-woo, but since this particular belief happens to be one you espouse, this time the evidence is sufficient.

Quote:
Not surprising, given your general support for such things demonstrated in the past.
First, I'd like to note that you have demonstrated a consistent behaviour of misrepresenting people in this thread and others when it comes to these issues, and this is no different. Now you're being a good little SJW and accusing me of supporting "such things" (presumably, oppression) by the simple act of disagreeing with you. Well, thanks for proving my earlier point about you doing exactly that. This is cult-like behaviour.

But other than revealing once more your utter dishonesty, it supports my earlier conclusion as well: you don't wish that you were wrong. You feed off of the fiction that this level of oppression exists, while at the same time living in utter comfort. It's safe and exciting at the same time, imagining yourself fighting against a faceless, all-encompassing evil while not having to do anything about it or suffer from it. You're no different than truthers and other conspiracy theorists, who know full well that the conspiracy doesn't exist, but revel in their delusions of fighting against a malicious, all-powerful government while enjoying the full comforts and benefits of civilisation.

What a transparent, dishonest tactic: rather than address what I said, dismiss my entire contribution to this forum, past and present and future, by making an unverifiable and blatantly untrue statement such as this. I wonder how you'd react if I dismissed your opinion on another topic by bringing up the made-up fact that you're a child molester. I'm sure you wouldn't mind at all. But of course, once again this is your belief we're talking about, and if it's justified to punch people you disagree with, using libel to avoid their points is child's play,
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:01 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think James Earl Jones playing Hamlet would be so bad, but your standards may be higher than mine.

It's not like I'm saying we should allow girls to play Peter Pan, for christ's sake.
Some here have proposed exactly that.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:02 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I'm sure that he thinks you're bigoted for being bold enough to think such a logical thing.
Of course he does. And you yourself have just become a member of the burgeoning uke2se Thinks We're Bigots Club, current forum membership at 2,845 members. Welcome!
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:07 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Did you completely miss the part where the white fascists attacked unarmed, passive, peaceful protesters?
You mean they employed Antifa style tactics? I wasn't aware of much of this, other than the guy with the car. How much of this do you believe was happening, and what do you base it upon?
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:09 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm sorry, but this might just be the dumbest post in the thread. Nobody's asking you to work for a communist takeover. We are asking you to stand up to casual racism that you might encounter in your own life, and to at least make an attempt to understand why BLM and Antifa are doing what they are doing.

White supremacists don't matter to you, because... wait for it... YOU'RE WHITE. They're not after you.
As you have done so often in this thread, you are informing someone, this time it's me, of what I think and why, and you are getting it wrong. So.......never mind.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:10 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As you have done so often in this thread, you are informing someone, this time it's me, of what I think and why, and you are getting it wrong. So.......never mind.
Uhmm... no I am not. I am informing you of what those of us on my side of the argument are asking of you. You were the one who said white supremacists were irrelevant, so I explained to you why they seem irrelevant to you. Neither of those is telling you what you think or why.

I have noticed that it seems difficult to even get people to understand what other people are saying around here, even if it's clear as day in their posts. Maybe this topic is simply too emotionally laden for us to discuss here? It would be a first.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:17 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Uhmm... no I am not.
You told him that white supremacists don't matter to him. That's telling him what he thinks. How did you miss that?

Also, I'll note that your comment about the reasons for your claim was racist.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:17 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And some of them are "good people".
I honestly believe that (for once) DJT was telling us exactly how he really feels.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:22 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You told him that white supremacists don't matter to him. That's telling him what he thinks. How did you miss that?

Also, I'll note that your comment about the reasons for your claim was racist.
Well, he did say that white supremacists didn't matter to him, but looking at the context he seems to have been saying that they were too insignificant to pay much attention to. Then uke2se told him that it was because he was white.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:29 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm sorry, but this might just be the dumbest post in the thread. Nobody's asking you to work for a communist takeover. We are asking you to stand up to casual racism that you might encounter in your own life, and to at least make an attempt to understand why BLM and Antifa are doing what they are doing.

White supremacists don't matter to you, because... wait for it... YOU'RE WHITE. They're not after you.
I'm a full-time second generation civil rights supporter, but the violence employed in recent anti-racist demonstrations does nothing but play into those mental defectives plan and only serves to inflate their own importance.

You want to show up to protest? Fine, surround the pointy-hat club, point at them and laugh. The more you laugh, the more you hurt them and marginalize their beliefs. Wave dildos at them, whatever. Turn you back and walk away before they finish their spiel. Grant them all the serious consideration they and their beliefs deserve -0-. Woody Guthrie had it right "This machine kills fascists" on his guitar was more true than most people know. The one single thing the pointy hats can't deal with is being ignored and made fun of. If somebody came up with a catchy anti-racist song with a good hook and a video to go with making fun of these ********, that would have a more positive effect than these stupid punch fests do.

Every time those jerk-offs show up and there's 10 rabid antifa protesters to every one of them, in their minds it's a win. If nobody showed up to protest them that would be the ideal, but that ain't happening because there are antifa types that are inflating their self worth by being "warriors" in defense of freedom and pointing and laughing isn't as romantic as yelling, screaming and posturing.

Before I exit rant mode, today's protesters here in the U.S are weak stuff. 50 soccer hooligans from the U.K. could probably kick every pointy hat and antifa ass in Charlottesville.

If you want to learn what a serious riot is and how they're conducted,
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:32 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Well, he did say that white supremacists didn't matter to him, but looking at the context he seems to have been saying that they were too insignificant to pay much attention to. Then uke2se told him that it was because he was white.
Yes, I know. But that's either because Uke didn't read his post, or because context doesn't matter to him. Mead gave his reasons clearly. I don't agree that they are insignificant, but that doesn't mean I'll misrepresent what he said.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:32 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I'm a full-time second generation civil rights supporter, but the violence employed in recent anti-racist demonstrations does nothing but play into those mental defectives plan and only serves to inflate their own importance.

You want to show up to protest? Fine, surround the pointy-hat club, point at them and laugh. The more you laugh, the more you hurt them and marginalize their beliefs. Wave dildos at them, whatever. Turn you back and walk away before they finish their spiel. Grant them all the serious consideration they and their beliefs deserve -0-. Woody Guthrie had it right "This machine kills fascists" on his guitar was more true than most people know. The one single thing the pointy hats can't deal with is being ignored and made fun of. If somebody came up with a catchy anti-racist song with a good hook and a video to go with making fun of these ********, that would have a more positive effect than these stupid punch fests do.

Every time those jerk-offs show up and there's 10 rabid antifa protesters to every one of them, in their minds it's a win. If nobody showed up to protest them that would be the ideal, but that ain't happening because there are antifa types that are inflating their self worth by being "warriors" in defense of freedom and pointing and laughing isn't as romantic as yelling, screaming and posturing.

Before I exit rant mode, today's protesters here in the U.S are weak stuff. 50 soccer hooligans from the U.K. could probably kick every pointy hat and antifa ass in Charlottesville.

If you want to learn what a serious riot is and how they're conducted,
learn from the Japanese:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Well said.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:33 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, I know. But that's either because Uke didn't read his post, or because context doesn't matter to him. Mead gave his reasons clearly. I don't agree that they are insignificant, but that doesn't mean I'll misrepresent what he said.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:34 PM   #302
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But that's either because Uke didn't read his post, or because context doesn't matter to him.
False dilemma. It could be both.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:35 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I'm a full-time second generation civil rights supporter, but the violence employed in recent anti-racist demonstrations does nothing but play into those mental defectives plan and only serves to inflate their own importance.

You want to show up to protest? Fine, surround the pointy-hat club, point at them and laugh. The more you laugh, the more you hurt them and marginalize their beliefs. Wave dildos at them, whatever. Turn you back and walk away before they finish their spiel. Grant them all the serious consideration they and their beliefs deserve -0-. Woody Guthrie had it right "This machine kills fascists" on his guitar was more true than most people know. The one single thing the pointy hats can't deal with is being ignored and made fun of. If somebody came up with a catchy anti-racist song with a good hook and a video to go with making fun of these ********, that would have a more positive effect than these stupid punch fests do.

Every time those jerk-offs show up and there's 10 rabid antifa protesters to every one of them, in their minds it's a win. If nobody showed up to protest them that would be the ideal, but that ain't happening because there are antifa types that are inflating their self worth by being "warriors" in defense of freedom and pointing and laughing isn't as romantic as yelling, screaming and posturing.

Before I exit rant mode, today's protesters here in the U.S are weak stuff. 50 soccer hooligans from the U.K. could probably kick every pointy hat and antifa ass in Charlottesville.

If you want to learn what a serious riot is and how they're conducted,
learn from the Japanese:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
The Nazis attack the peaceful protesters. They did so during the Friday torch march in Charlottesville, and they did so during the Saturday rally. Eyewitnesses - mainly peaceful protesters, clergy and the like - say that Antifa protected them and quite possibly saved their lives from the violence of the Fascists.

Ignoring Fascists allows them to fester and grow stronger. They are now radicalizing angry white men in the US, and they are growing stronger. You simply cannot afford to ignore them. Nobody can. Of course, they won't come for you, but if you care about any of the people they target - Jews, blacks, Muslims, hispanic, LGBT, etc. - you should stand up. Because the Fascists are standing up, and they feel they have an ally in the White House and the wind in their sails. And that is the one thing I agree with them on.

Also, do yourself a favor. Learn what Antifa do. Learn the history of the movement. It's interesting, and it gives you a much better shot at understanding them.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:38 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ignoring Fascists allows them to fester and grow stronger. They are now radicalizing angry white men in the US, and they are growing stronger. You simply cannot afford to ignore them. Nobody can. Of course, they won't come for you, but if you care about any of the people they target - Jews, blacks, Muslims, hispanic, LGBT, etc. - you should stand up. Because the Fascists are standing up, and they feel they have an ally in the White House and the wind in their sails. And that is the one thing I agree with them on.
If ignoring fascists allows them to grow stronger, what does having fistycuffs with them do? It certainly doesn't deplete them, and it clearly entices them into further violence.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:42 PM   #305
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:45 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ignoring Fascists allows them to fester and grow stronger.
There's a middle ground between punching them and ignoring them.

Quote:
They are now radicalizing angry white men in the US, and they are growing stronger.
Yes, and one of the reasons, aside from them being douchebags in the first place, is that they are reacting to an opposite form of extremism from the left. The two are feeding off each other. I don't think having them engage in punching matches will help.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:46 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Edx View Post
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What do you want to say by posting that video?

"Fake news"?
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Old 25th August 2017, 04:34 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yes. I believe that the violence of both sides is morally equivalent.
Your morality is lacking then.


Quote:
Except that in Charlottesville, that didn't happen. The alt-right didn't show up heavily armed and start attacking people. That's not reality.

Did you read this article, link posted by someone earlier, by Bill Moyers:

http://billmoyers.com/story/white-su...ust-beginning/

Both sides had assault rifles. Both sides had clubs. As Moyers said in his first sentence, "violence was inevitable".
The Nazis showed up Friday with their torches and body armor and by the time this account starts, had already almost killed a man.

Quote:
I saw a woman interviewed by Chris Matthews. She described how she and some other people locked arms at the park entrance to attempt to block the alt-right from entering the park, and then described the escalation of violence from that point. She seemed to be oblivious to the fact that she, personally, had initiated the violence. Apparently if you have good intentions, it doesn't count.
They blocked the other entrances to the park while the permit holding Nazis were supposed to go in the single entrance (north one if I remember correctly), but decided to try to go in all of them.

Quote:
Yes, I am saying that blocking a sidewalk is violence, and it will inevitably lead to more violence when there are two groups of heavily armed rowdies are in close proximity.
Blocking the sidewalk is violence...wow.

Quote:
As for the murder by vehicle that happened later on, yes, this time it was an alt-righter. In Dallas last year, it was a leftie. I don't see a hill of beans worth of difference between the two.
Really? You don't see a difference between a man who was twice rejected from BLM because of his advocacy of violence that was roundly rejected by a group who advocates for less violence and police accountability and a man who was part of a hate group that has been behind the literal holocaust and is just fine and dandy with violence running people down?

Come on, I know some right leaning people on these boards are biased enough to think that groups like BLM are largely violent and advocate violence as much as Nazis, but you have to know that's not true. That's not equivalent.

Quote:
I'll go so far as to say that President Trump was wrong in saying there were good people on both sides. I can't see how any good people could attend that rally on the alt-right side. However, he was right to say that there were bad people on both sides.
Of course there were bad people on both sides, but they were not equivalent in any magnitude of bad, nor in percentage bad people.
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Old 25th August 2017, 05:08 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The Nazis attack the peaceful protesters. They did so during the Friday torch march in Charlottesville, and they did so during the Saturday rally. Eyewitnesses - mainly peaceful protesters, clergy and the like - say that Antifa protected them and quite possibly saved their lives from the violence of the Fascists.
I have asked for some source for this a few times without anyone providing, so checked a bit to find a slate article about this. Basically all eyewitness accounts they came up with were from the line of people blocking the path into the park. Not to downplay this situation, but there is little beyond this specific instance mentioned.

It ignores all eyewitness accounts from others of the violence also initiated by Antifa. Which seems to me a pretty slanted view.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ignoring Fascists allows them to fester and grow stronger. They are now radicalizing angry white men in the US, and they are growing stronger. You simply cannot afford to ignore them. Nobody can. Of course, they won't come for you, but if you care about any of the people they target - Jews, blacks, Muslims, hispanic, LGBT, etc. - you should stand up. Because the Fascists are standing up, and they feel they have an ally in the White House and the wind in their sails. And that is the one thing I agree with them on.

Ignoring and ridiculing them has worked for years. Honestly, go back and look up old KKK/Nazi/White supremacist rallies of years past. They would promise large crowds and then show up with 70-100 people. Most of them being leaders and publicly known heads of hate groups.

They would normally be largely outnumbered by police, who can obviously maintain peace when the situations are like that. And they also would end up lasting a short time. You know why? Because they need combativeness. Think they will sit around just yelling white power for hours among themselves with no one there to listen and argue with?

Know how they get larger numbers to attend? The possibility of violence. The chance for a fight. Joe Shmoe isn't going to come out just to hear himself talk. But a chance to hit someone? Then it's interesting.

Know what else non-violent small sized rallies don't get? Press coverage. Know what does? Violent altercations at rallies. It really isn't that hard to understand here.
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Old 25th August 2017, 05:15 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I have asked for some source for this a few times without anyone providing, so checked a bit to find a slate article about this. Basically all eyewitness accounts they came up with were from the line of people blocking the path into the park. Not to downplay this situation, but there is little beyond this specific instance mentioned.

It ignores all eyewitness accounts from others of the violence also initiated by Antifa. Which seems to me a pretty slanted view.
I have provided the source at least twice. Not sure if I have done so to you, but it has been provided by me and by others.

And yes, it's mostly about the path to the park (the path the Nazis weren't supposed to use according to their permit). But there's other stuff there too, like Antifa protecting a methodist church and a synagogue.

Could you provide the source about violence initiated by Antifa?

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Ignoring and ridiculing them has worked for years. Honestly, go back and look up old KKK/Nazi/White supremacist rallies of years past. They would promise large crowds and then show up with 70-100 people. Most of them being leaders and publicly known heads of hate groups.
And now they don't. Now they can show up with thousands. And the reason is that they have organized in obscurity, managed to control discussion by creating the fallback position of irony, and made people think they aren't really that dangerous.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
They would normally be largely outnumbered by police, who can obviously maintain peace when the situations are like that. And they also would end up lasting a short time. You know why? Because they need combativeness. Think they will sit around just yelling white power for hours among themselves with no one there to listen and argue with?
And beat up on minorities. You forgot about that.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Know how they get larger numbers to attend? The possibility of violence. The chance for a fight. Joe Shmoe isn't going to come out just to hear himself talk. But a chance to hit someone? Then it's interesting.
They also get larger numbers by organizing, which is what they have done.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Know what else non-violent small sized rallies don't get? Press coverage. Know what does? Violent altercations at rallies. It really isn't that hard to understand here.
Press coverage is essential. We wouldn't be having this conversation right now if it weren't for press coverage. Ignoring the Nazis won't make them go away. It will give them the freedom they need to sow their filth in another generation of young angry white men.
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Old 25th August 2017, 05:45 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post

And now they don't. Now they can show up with thousands. And the reason is that they have organized in obscurity, managed to control discussion by creating the fallback position of irony, and made people think they aren't really that dangerous
Thousands?

I had to go look that up.
Press reports said it was the largest "hate-gathering" in a decade. In 2002, 300 showed up to the capital. The estimate for August 14 at Lee park was 500.
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Old 25th August 2017, 05:50 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And beat up on minorities. You forgot about that.
Yeah. Beating up on minorities is way more badder than beating up on normal people!!

Quote:
Press coverage is essential. We wouldn't be having this conversation right now if it weren't for press coverage. Ignoring the Nazis won't make them go away. It will give them the freedom they need to sow their filth in another generation of young angry white men.
This is how fanatics talk.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:16 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And yes, it's mostly about the path to the park (the path the Nazis weren't supposed to use according to their permit). But there's other stuff there too, like Antifa protecting a methodist church and a synagogue.

Could you provide the source about violence initiated by Antifa?
This LAtimes article lists a number of eye-witness accounts. Don't have everything I read in the past handy but I'll see later if I find some others. Basically, it was a mix of violence on both sides.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And now they don't. Now they can show up with thousands. And the reason is that they have organized in obscurity, managed to control discussion by creating the fallback position of irony, and made people think they aren't really that dangerous.
They have organized in obscurity for decades. The things that have changed are the tactics of anti-protesters. And the effect is not what they are looking to achieve.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And beat up on minorities. You forgot about that.
Look back at rallies past. Not recent. You will notice that is rarely the case. Not because they don't want to. But because there is no opportunity when police out number them 2-1 and there is no large collection of people in the middle making the situation less controllable.

Even for this event, the largest one recently, their numbers were according to another poster 500. How many cops do you think were present? I can't find an exact number, but apparently 'hundreds' of state troopers, 124 local police and 115 national guardsmen. Do you believe at 1-1 odds even that the police could not deter violence without the large number of counter protesters that arrived? Honest question.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They also get larger numbers by organizing, which is what they have done.
Again, they have done the same for years.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Press coverage is essential. We wouldn't be having this conversation right now if it weren't for press coverage. Ignoring the Nazis won't make them go away. It will give them the freedom they need to sow their filth in another generation of young angry white men.
Nothing will make them go away. In years past it seems like lawsuits have done more to lessen their power than any antifa anti-protest.

And they have the freedom to sow their filth. It is right there in the 1st amendment. And new generations of young angry white men will join. And no amount of anti-protests or violence is going to stop that for good, and for all their efforts, it seems to be having the exact opposite outcome.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:24 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The Nazis showed up Friday with their torches and body armor and by the time this account starts, had already almost killed a man.
They likely brought body armor and weapons, because they knew Antifa was coming.

Originally Posted by from the wikipedia article
The 2016 Sacramento riot was a civil disorder at a rally outside the California State Capitol in Sacramento, California on June 26, 2016. Antifa protesters and white nationalist groups were involved. Police say the violence was started by the left-wing counter-protesters.[4] Ten people were hospitalised for stabbing and laceration wounds with the majority of those hospitalised being counter-protesters.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:30 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They blocked the other entrances to the park while the permit holding Nazis were supposed to go in the single entrance (north one if I remember correctly), but decided to try to go in all of them.
I'm going to put on my skeptic's hat here. This is new information and, to be honest, it doesn't make much sense to me. I'll ask for a cite.

It seems weird to me that a group of counter-protestors would say, "Let's block off the entrances that the Nazis aren't using!" It seems slightly weird that the permit would specify an entrance, although if it was a parade permit that specified a route, that would make sense. I thought it was a gathering permit, but I could be wrong.

If the counter-protestors were not in the Nazis' way, and the Nazis' deviated from their assigned path to go confront the people blocking the entrances that were not expected to be in use, that would change my opinion about that confrontation. I'll accept any evidence presented. Heck, I'll even look a little bit myself, although that's an odd set of search terms to try to find on google without more info.



Quote:
Really? You don't see a difference between a man who was twice rejected from BLM because of his advocacy of violence that was roundly rejected by a group who advocates for less violence and police accountability and a man who was part of a hate group that has been behind the literal holocaust and is just fine and dandy with violence running people down?
I'm not comparing BLM to Unite the Right. I'm comparing one guy who murdered people with a gun to a different guy who murdered people with a car. I don't see a hill of beans worth of difference.


Quote:
Of course there were bad people on both sides, but they were not equivalent in any magnitude of bad, nor in percentage bad people.
I think the fact that I said there were no good people on the right would indicate that the "percentage" aspect is a non-controversial statement.

As for the rest, I'm not interested in comparing net quality of either "side". I'm not really into the whole concept of collective guilt. Those people who were there to peacefully protest, who didn't threaten, who didn't bring hammers (reference in the Moyers article), who didn't intimidate spray mace or use aerosol flame throwers (I don't know if everyone has seen that picture), are just fine. If they were white supremacists being peaceful, then they are peaceful scum, and if they were counterprotesters, then they were decent people.

If they supported or engaged in violence, except in real* self defense, I really don't care what their ideology was.


*i.e. something that would stand up in court as self defense. That means you only fought back when there was real violence, or a real threat of violence, and you could not avoid it.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:32 PM   #316
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Never did and never will
We forsake you
Gonna rape you
Let's forget you better still
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:35 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I have asked for some source for this a few times without anyone providing, so checked a bit to find a slate article about this. Basically all eyewitness accounts they came up with were from the line of people blocking the path into the park. Not to downplay this situation, but there is little beyond this specific instance mentioned.
That's what I heard from that interview I saw with the woman and Chris Matthews. As indicated earlier, I got the impression they weren't allowing the Nazis into the park. Tyr_13 had a different statement about where that (those?) conflict occurred. I'm open to evidence.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:40 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
*i.e. something that would stand up in court as self defense. That means you only fought back when there was real violence, or a real threat of violence, and you could not avoid it.
This is the problem, and one I tried to bring up earlier: it's hard to say that you're defending yourself if you're actively there to participate in a brawl and appear to be turning up for such a thing.

This is one reason why arrests are made.

You can't brawl with someone and claim self-defense, because you have to prove that you were in danger, and that the force you used was sufficient and reasonable but no more.

If someone attacks me, and they have many times in my line of work, then I can hit them, but I cannot continue to hit them, because that's no longer self-defense.

It can be argued that those individuals who turn up armed are doing so with intent to cause harm, to claim that they're turning up armed to "defend themselves" is nonsense, and any judge would laugh them out of court.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:41 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's what I heard from that interview I saw with the woman and Chris Matthews. As indicated earlier, I got the impression they weren't allowing the Nazis into the park. Tyr_13 had a different statement about where that (those?) conflict occurred. I'm open to evidence.
It appears they were suppose(?) to go through a specific entrance and instead entered through multiple entrances. Not sure if it was a suggested route or the only allowed route though.

Why that specific set of protesters felt it necessary to stop them from using that specific entrance hasn't really be laid out, besides 'stopping Nazi's from entering the park'. Even though they were going to either way. Doesn't excuse the violence used to break through, but does seem a weird choice of confrontation for confrontations sake.


EDIT: It appears it was a planned route but not something they were required per se to follow.

Quote:
Charlottesville Police Chief Al Thomas said during a nationally televised news conference Monday that there was a plan "to keep the two sides separate" at the park, but that "we can't control which side someone enters the park ... They didn't (follow the plan), and entered the park from different directions."

Last edited by rdwight; 25th August 2017 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:50 PM   #320
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Here is a link with lots of eyewitness accounts.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...815-story.html


Antifa et. al don't really come across as non-violent in most of them.

This particular eyewitness account even calls into question the standard description of the car crash. It says he was going very slowly until few feet before hitting the crowd. That would be consistent with becoming frightened after the guy with the club hit the back of his car.

Well, that's what we have courts for. I can't tell any of that looking at the video clips, but I know how to use a computer to determine the position of that car frame by frame, and I have no doubt that if it fits their narrative, the defense will analyze it like it was the Zapruder film. It sure looks to me like a speeding car deliberately slammed into a crowd, but the jury will decide that, and they will have a lot more information than I do.
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