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Old 12th September 2017, 08:31 AM   #361
Thermal
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
not believing an excuse = believing he is lying = racist.
Only for those with remarkably limited powers of reasoning. That his explanation is goofy does not equal that he is racist. As a speculative example (as you seem to find it challenging to find an alternate equivalent for the excuse): couple of drunk frat boys making some crude sexual joke, part of which involved fooling around with a banana peel, which ended with it in a tree. White frat boy realizes his drunken antics had some bad interpretations. 'Fesses up, but to save face provides lame cover story. I think it is plausible, and I would find it more believable than the Litterbug Defense.

Quote:
But please regale us with tales of what you do believe the white frat boy was doing....
Dunno. But I don't think that eye level trash display was it.

Quote:
waits expectantly.
I wait expectantly for you as well. You commented upthread that studens providing testimony about racism on campus was 'blacks getting riled up about a whole lot of nothing'. Standing by that, are we?

ETA: BOOM goes the unfounded racist accusation
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:40 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That's my point, he wasn't being careless. He deliberately placed it in a really strange and, in context of his 'couldn't find a trash bin' claim, inexplicable place. A careless frat boy tossing trash, no problem. He did not claim careless tossing.

Seems careless to me, putting trash in a tree.

Inconsiderate, to be sure.

Racist? Maybe.

Suppose we sort the banana bandit’s possible motives into two bins:

1) Dehumanizing people with (relatively recent) African ancestry

2) Everything else

I take it you believe there are good reasons to conclude the first is more likely to be true than the second?
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:40 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post

I wait expectantly for you as well. You commented upthread that studens providing testimony about racism on campus was 'blacks getting riled up about a whole lot of nothing'. Standing by that, are we?

ETA: BOOM goes the unfounded racist accusation
Huh, just think he's lying. Just Asking Questions. The Banana peel was an inside job.

Gotcha.

Oh hell yeah I 100% stand by my statement that the the good folks down there were getting riled up about a banana peel in a tree that a student admitted he put there, explained why he did it and apologized for immediately.

Sounds like a whole lot of nothing to me, but perhaps he said "pull it" at some point?

Banana Peel Truthers
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:51 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Seems careless to me, putting trash in a tree.
He claimed he did so deliberately, or carefully. Because he couldn't find a bin. Those two things don't jibe, IMO.

Quote:
Inconsiderate, to be sure.

Racist? Maybe.

Suppose we sort the banana bandit’s possible motives into two bins:

1) Dehumanizing people with (relatively recent) African ancestry

2) Everything else

I take it you believe there are good reasons to conclude the first is more likely to be true than the second?
No. If speculation continues to be admissible, I would think he was doing...something...that he was embarrassed about, and whipped up a poorly thought out cover story. Whether racist, mindless drunken revelry, or whatever is unknown, lacking enough information to make that call. I just find the Litterbug Defense to lack credibility. What his prejudices and motivations were? Dunno, not enough info.
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:59 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post

No. If speculation continues to be admissible, I would think he was doing...something...that he was embarrassed about, and whipped up a poorly thought out cover story. Whether racist, mindless drunken revelry, or whatever is unknown, lacking enough information to make that call. I just find the Litterbug Defense to lack credibility. What his prejudices and motivations were? Dunno, not enough info.
So we have incredulity, racist, or drunk.

No evidence whatsoever by anyone ever that he was drunk, not in the slightest.

Just call him racist, not sure why you are getting cold feet now, sure he admitted it, explained himself, and apologized.

But that banana peel might have been laced with thermite!
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:59 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What I see, and I'm not just referring to this thread, is an awful lot of the "Well, I'm not claiming there's no such thing as racism, but I just don't see it 'this time'." sort of argument. Much in the same vein as tobacco merchants not denying that smoking can cause cancer, but fighting in every court case that it can't be proven tobacco caused 'this cancer'.

The sum total of which seems to be that all claims of racism are to be ridiculed and dismissed.
Yeah but isn't that how you should deal with individual instances? Establish that racism is involved this time? Otherwise you could simply assume that it is just as easily as the people you accuse of doing the opposite are.
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:01 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You need to watch a little more Hercule Poirot and less Fox and Friends.
Are there as many short skirts in a Poirot episode? I thought not!
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:04 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Huh, just think he's lying. Just Asking Questions. The Banana peel was an inside job.

Gotcha.
You're ignoring the meat again. You claim that doubting his explanation is an accusation of racism. You claimed it is a 'fact'. Gave you a contrary example. Do you agree that one can doubt a story without assuming racism?

Quote:
Oh hell yeah I 100% stand by my statement that the the good folks down there were getting riled up about a banana peel in a tree that a student admitted he put there, explained why he did it and apologized for immediately.

Sounds like a whole lot of nothing to me, but perhaps he said "pull it" at some point?

Banana Peel Truthers
Your quote (I'll pull it up for you if you deny it) was that students testifying about racism on campus was 'blacks getting riled up about a whole lot of nothing'. No goalpost moving, now.
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:11 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So we have incredulity, racist, or drunk.

No evidence whatsoever by anyone ever that he was drunk, not in the slightest.

Just call him racist, not sure why you are getting cold feet now, sure he admitted it, explained himself, and apologized.

But that banana peel might have been laced with thermite!
...And here we have The Big Dog's Fall collection of strawman arguments. Note how stylishly they evade points and complement his confirmation bias...
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
He claimed he did so deliberately, or carefully. Because he couldn't find a bin. Those two things don't jibe, IMO.



No. If speculation continues to be admissible, I would think he was doing...something...that he was embarrassed about, and whipped up a poorly thought out cover story. Whether racist, mindless drunken revelry, or whatever is unknown, lacking enough information to make that call. I just find the Litterbug Defense to lack credibility. What his prejudices and motivations were? Dunno, not enough info.
Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
...And here we have The Big Dog's Fall collection of strawman arguments. Note how stylishly they evade points and complement his confirmation bias...
"So we have incredulity, racist, or drunk."

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Old 12th September 2017, 09:20 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"So we have incredulity, racist, or drunk."

Or anything else. As said repeatedly, his motivations are unknown. His story, though, is pretty weak, IMO. But you assert as 'fact' that he is assumed to be 'racist as hell', supported by...where was your quote again?
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:30 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Or anything else. As said repeatedly, his motivations are unknown. His story, though, is pretty weak, IMO. But you assert as 'fact' that he is assumed to be 'racist as hell', supported by...where was your quote again?
wow! Walking back the strawman claim so fast!

His motivations are most certainly not unknown, he admitted he did it, he explained it, and apologized.

You don't believe him for reasons that you are hesitant to admit.

You don't want to flat out admit that he is racist, but you have no problem accusing him of lying and speculating that he was drunk based on literally nothing.

Hence: Banana Peel Truthers
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:40 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wow! Walking back the strawman claim so fast!


Quote:
His motivations are most certainly not unknown, he admitted he did it, he explained it, and apologized.
Claimed =/= known

Quote:
You don't believe him for reasons that you are hesitant to admit.
The Clairvoyance Argument. Really rolling out the collection, aren't we?

Quote:
You don't want to flat out admit that he is racist, but you have no problem accusing him of lying and speculating that he was drunk based on literally nothing.
Admitted speculation, to show to those of limited comprehension how one can doubt a story without assuming racism.

Quote:
Hence: Banana Peel Truthers
You could put that strawman on the porch for Halloween.
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:48 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
If speculation continues to be admissible, I would think he was doing...something...that he was embarrassed about, and whipped up a poorly thought out cover story.

Perhaps so, perhaps not.

Can we agree that leaving a banana peel on a tree is ambiguous messaging at most, and possibly entirely meaningless?
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:51 AM   #375
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Unfortunately I do not believe we can agree on that
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Perhaps so, perhaps not.

Can we agree that leaving a banana peel on a tree is ambiguous messaging at most, and possibly entirely meaningless?
Yes, fully agreed. FWIW, I don't think this guy is likely to be 'racist as hell'. His evidently quick public acknowledgement that he did it would be at odds with how I would expect a hard-core racist to react.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:10 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Perhaps so, perhaps not.

Can we agree that leaving a banana peel on a tree is ambiguous messaging at most, and possibly entirely meaningless?
Yes. However isn't the use of ambiguous insults one of the common tactics of bullies? If you can make your victim associate something otherwise perfectly innocent with your insults and threats, then you don't need to do nearly as much work, and you get to call them "snowflakes" as well.

The ideal threat or insult is one that is understood by the bully, and the target, but that the target can't easily explain why. Lots of little things that individually might be nothing, but taken together make their target deeply uncomfortable, but which the target feels silly complaining about as it any individual thing seems so trivial. It also then attacks their sense of judgement and gets them to question their own sense of proportion.

Even if the banana was just someone putting it in a tree rather than a bin (which as Mostly Dead says, is a bit odd - as it is neither throwing it away carelessly, or disposing of it properly) that is not to say that the black people hadn't been exposed to similar sights which had been racist in intent. (See my comment about calling people snowflakes earlier).
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Old 12th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #378
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Several years ago, there was an incident at an LTA Tennis match where a player (can't remember who, possibly Martina Hingis or Maria Sharapova) was in a match against Venus Williams. Sometime during the match, Williams' opponent looked up into the stand where her coach/Father was sitting. He pulled out a banana, and made a very clear show of peeling it and eating it.

Now, this could be interpreted in one of three ways

1. He was hungry and so he ate a banana.

2. He was advising/reminding his daughter that she needed to eat.

3. He was making a racist gesture about Venus Williams.

How would you know which?

Ultimately, he was accused of coaching his player during a match in progress. (which at that time was not allowed) though the charge never stuck IIRC

The point is, I'll bet you anything you like that if the SJW's of this world (and on this forum too) accused him of the racist thing, they would never accept either of the first two as excuses.
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:44 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Typically there is a reason why one believes he is lying.

I have proposed one: people think he is racist.

Not hearing anything else,

BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE
What was it Paul Simon sadi, again?
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:01 PM   #380
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Forget Paul Simon, what about Harry Belefonte? Bananas and boats! Boats have got to be some kind of trigger. Right?
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:12 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Forget Paul Simon, what about Harry Belefonte? Bananas and boats! Boats have got to be some kind of trigger. Right?
Hah!. I can better that! Tiny Tim!!! "I've Never Seen a Straight Banana"

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I AGREE


Would that be a trigger for gay black men?
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:25 PM   #382
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Quote:
“You see how much fear and how much anger you insight in black people just from an unintentional image,” she said.
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
It's a banana peel in a tree. Get a ******* grip.
And maybe the article writer should take an English literature course. The correct word usage there is incite, not "insight".

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/incite

I guess that's why they go to college.

Hank
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:43 PM   #383
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I know its from cracked, but just read it.

6 Reasons Good People Turn Into Monsters

Quote:
It's crazy how those racists do that, isn't it? Those dirty, toothless, inbred hillbillies. They're almost as bad as the gamergaters. You know, those fat virgin neckbeards in their mothers' basements? They all probably voted for Trump -- that guy with the gross weird hair and fake tan and tiny hands. Disgusting, right?

"Well, but that's different! In those cases, the targets deserve it!" Oh, I get it. It feels great to poke our enemies in their sensitive spots. We know Trump is insecure about his hair, that Chris Christie is probably sensitive about being fat, that social outcasts are so ashamed of their virginity that some of them will blow their brains out rather than live with it. So why not use those weapons? This is total war, after all -- everything about the enemy is fair game.
Quote:
"Nazis are bad and must be opposed."

Agree!

"People who enable or defend Nazis must also be opposed."

Makes sense!

"Unlawful violence is perfectly acceptable when opposing Nazis and their enablers."

Wait, I'm not sure I'm on board with that ...

"Anyone who opposes the use of unlawful violence against Nazis is also a Nazi enabler."

What? No! I'm one of the good guys!

"Also, if you think about it, all American institutions and capitalism itself help support white supremacy, therefore all are Nazi enablers and eligible for violent retribution."

Hey, I think you just declared war on literally everyone who isn't currently in the room with you.

You hear experts talk about how extremists get "radicalized" -- how a guy went from a mild-mannered food inspector in San Bernardino to a brainwashed suicide attacker in the course of a year or so. But it really isn't a mystery, and we all form less-murderous versions of this. All it takes is a closed like-minded social circle in which it's considered unacceptable to disagree with the group, and then devote that group to hating something. It doesn't even matter if the thing truly deserves hating -- it still turns toxic. In fact, it works better if it does. "How can you criticize any flaw in our group's behavior when the other side is Nazis! That's literally saying that both sides are the same! The mere existence of pure evil on the other side mathematically means our side is pure good!"

At that point, no criticism is possible and there is nothing to moderate the rage. The rhetoric ratchets higher and higher as each member tries to top each other (to prove their own righteousness by demonstrating they hate the target most), and there is no method for reining it in. Moderate voices from outside the group are excluded completely, anyone from the inside who takes a moderate tone can be shouted down with accusations of being an enemy sympathizer. Soon, everything from objectively grotesque insults to elaborate torture fantasies are tossed around without a second thought.
So here we are doing the same thing (and even worse in other threads).

Being to one side or the other of someone else's perspective seems to mark one as either 'defending everyday racism' or alternatively 'a snowflake sjw drama addict.'

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Old 12th September 2017, 09:42 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I know its from cracked, but just read it.

6 Reasons Good People Turn Into Monsters

So here we are doing the same thing (and even worse in other threads).

Being to one side or the other of someone else's perspective seems to mark one as either 'defending everyday racism' or alternatively 'a snowflake sjw drama addict.'
The thing that most snowflakes, SJW's, rednecks and good-ol boys on this site forget about is the single most important factor in all this..... CONTEXT; the definition of which is "the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed." The exact same words and/or actions can be either harmless or bigoted based entirely on the context in which they appear.

In the case of the banana-skin litterer, his attitudes and intent are part of the context, as are the locations and attitudes of those who were offended by what he did. That the "victims" were offended is not in question, but the intent of the litterer is. Some people here question his reason for putting a banana skin in a tree. I don't because having been brought up in an environment devoid of the African slave trade, where there has never even been a civil war, much less one dividing my country on a geographical and political basis, and where a banana has always been just a banana, and not some covert symbol of racism, I would have disposed of a banana skin in a tree (and very likely have actually done so) without a second thought .... context is everything!

Unless someone can PROVE that his intent was to make some kind of racially charged statement, then he doesn't really have a case to answer.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:41 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The thing that most snowflakes, SJW's, rednecks and good-ol boys on this site forget about is the single most important factor in all this..... CONTEXT; the definition of which is "the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed." The exact same words and/or actions can be either harmless or bigoted based entirely on the context in which they appear.

In the case of the banana-skin litterer, his attitudes and intent are part of the context, as are the locations and attitudes of those who were offended by what he did. That the "victims" were offended is not in question, but the intent of the litterer is. Some people here question his reason for putting a banana skin in a tree. I don't because having been brought up in an environment devoid of the African slave trade, where there has never even been a civil war, much less one dividing my country on a geographical and political basis, and where a banana has always been just a banana, and not some covert symbol of racism, I would have disposed of a banana skin in a tree (and very likely have actually done so) without a second thought .... context is everything!

Unless someone can PROVE that his intent was to make some kind of racially charged statement, then he doesn't really have a case to answer.

You should pay attention to your own writings.

As you say, you may have been brought up in an environment devoid of all of those things.

He wasn't. In fact, since he was going to school in Mississippi, at "Ol' Miss", it is likely he was brought up in an environment rife with the weight of such a heritage. It would be hard to avoid.

As you say, context matters.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:06 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You should pay attention to your own writings.

As you say, you may have been brought up in an environment devoid of all of those things.

He wasn't. In fact, since he was going to school in Mississippi, at "Ol' Miss", it is likely he was brought up in an environment rife with the weight of such a heritage. It would be hard to avoid.

As you say, context matters.
Its not a binary situation though is it?

There will be people in this country who actually do understand the banana hanging by a hangman's noose meme, there will be people in America who do not understand that a banana skin in a tree was a racist meme (unless you are claiming that all 326,000,000+ Americans would KNOW that a banana skin in a tree was a known meme, and if you are, you had better have compelling evidence to back that claim up)

Its is perfectly possible that banana skin litterer didn't know that banana skin in a tree was a racist meme. Again, if you are making the accusation that he did, where is your compelling evidence?
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:26 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not a binary situation though is it?

There will be people in this country who actually do understand the banana hanging by a hangman's noose meme, there will be people in America who do not understand that a banana skin in a tree was a racist meme (unless you are claiming that all 326,000,000+ Americans would KNOW that a banana skin in a tree was a known meme, and if you are, you had better have compelling evidence to back that claim up)

That's a lot of fail to pack into one paragraph.

Why would I need to prove that everyone knew something to suggest that someone might? Someone at a conference on the subject of racial issues on campus, a few months after bananas in trees were an issue elsewhere.

Why is it so impossible to extend the meme of a banana hanging in a tree to a banana skinhanging in a tree? Do you believe that such memes are set in concrete and cannot evolve or extended?

(@Tolls: Take note. I don't want you to miss it this time around.)

Why do I need "compelling evidence" that in this case this individual might have been aware of the subtext potentially implicit in such an act? Do you have "compelling evidence" that he wasn't?

Quote:

Its is perfectly possible that banana skin litterer didn't know that banana skin in a tree was a racist meme. Again, if you are making the accusation that he did, where is your compelling evidence?

I have made no such accusation. I have disagreed with the assertions that there is no way it could be viewed as anything but an innocent act of conspicuous trash disposal.

What is your "compelling evidence" that it could be nothing else?
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:31 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
<snip>
No evidence then?

OK, got it!
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:38 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why is it so impossible to extend the meme of a banana hanging in a tree to a banana skinhanging in a tree? Do you believe that such memes are set in concrete and cannot evolve or extended?

(@Tolls: Take note. I don't want you to miss it this time around.)

Why do I need "compelling evidence" that in this case this individual might have been aware of the subtext potentially implicit in such an act? Do you have "compelling evidence" that he wasn't?
I didn't miss it last time.
If you have no evidence of prior art (as I suggested before) then you are making a leap. That's why some more evidence would be helpful.

At the moment we have a guy who, as far as I can make out, pretty quickly owned up to it. Since no one seemed to know who was responsible prior to that, I would have expected someone who did that with racist intentions to have wanted to drag the whole thing out. To me that's fairly compelling. Moreso than maybe this is the first step in an evolving meme.

Maybe he's actually a more advanced racist who doesn't see the point in wasting a perfectly good banana...however I would expect something more to come out about him. Otherwise this would be an isolated, out of character, racist incident, in which case that (again to me) makes it less likely to be the case.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:16 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I didn't miss it last time.
If you have no evidence of prior art (as I suggested before) then you are making a leap. That's why some more evidence would be helpful.

At the moment we have a guy who, as far as I can make out, pretty quickly owned up to it. Since no one seemed to know who was responsible prior to that, I would have expected someone who did that with racist intentions to have wanted to drag the whole thing out. To me that's fairly compelling. Moreso than maybe this is the first step in an evolving meme.

Maybe he's actually a more advanced racist who doesn't see the point in wasting a perfectly good banana...however I would expect something more to come out about him. Otherwise this would be an isolated, out of character, racist incident, in which case that (again to me) makes it less likely to be the case.

THIS and THIS
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:52 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I didn't miss it last time.
If you have no evidence of prior art (as I suggested before) then you are making a leap. That's why some more evidence would be helpful.

At the moment we have a guy who, as far as I can make out, pretty quickly owned up to it. Since no one seemed to know who was responsible prior to that, I would have expected someone who did that with racist intentions to have wanted to drag the whole thing out. To me that's fairly compelling. Moreso than maybe this is the first step in an evolving meme.

Maybe he's actually a more advanced racist who doesn't see the point in wasting a perfectly good banana...however I would expect something more to come out about him. Otherwise this would be an isolated, out of character, racist incident, in which case that (again to me) makes it less likely to be the case.

He wouldn't need to be a "more advanced racist" (interesting turn of phrase) to have done something as a rude, sophomoric joke, the sort of thing fraternity boys are legendary for.

Owning up to it only tells us that he saw a need to head off any more pointed criticism by making the claim that it was just a harmless display of garbage art with no other underlying intent. Something he could easily have done because he had no way of knowing that someone didn't see him do it, someone who might step forward when the episode garnered more attention than he had expected, a not unreasonable concern for an act performed publicly in an open space in broad daylight.

It truly surprises me* that these perfectly reasonable alternatives seem so vanishingly unlikely to these who want to claim that there is nothing here to warrant any possibility of intent at all.

(*: No, it doesn't, actually.)
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:14 AM   #392
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I don't see them as vanishingly unlikely at all (you and Big Dog do love to push the extremes), and I suspect that's the case with most people here who are suggesting that he simply made a mistake is possibly the more prosaic explanation.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:20 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I don't see them as vanishingly unlikely at all (you and Big Dog do love to push the extremes), and I suspect that's the case with most people here who are suggesting that he simply made a mistake is possibly the more prosaic explanation.

It isn't "most people" that I am disagreeing with. It is the ones taking the "extremes" you mention.

(Something which, I must point out, I am not doing.)

I do not discount the possibility that it was simply a prosaic mistake. I also do not feel that that is the only rational or reasonable position it is possible to take.

Do you find fault with that?
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:51 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It isn't "most people" that I am disagreeing with. It is the ones taking the "extremes" you mention.

(Something which, I must point out, I am not doing.)
Then you might need to point out whose arguments you have issue with. I'm sure I'm not alone in viewing your posts as seeming to be having a go at anyone who holds the "he's probably innocent" side of things.

i know you are piecing things together from other threads, but it really doesn't help when, in all honesty, many of us may not be involved in all this stuff.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I do not discount the possibility that it was simply a prosaic mistake. I also do not feel that that is the only rational or reasonable position it is possible to take.

Do you find fault with that?
That's fair enough.
As I've said, I don't discount the immediate reaction to the event, especially since those involved clearly drew parallels with the earlier event.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:55 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Unless someone can PROVE that his intent was to make some kind of racially charged statement, then he doesn't really have a case to answer.
What is the bar for that though? It is trivial to set the bar so high that nothing is ever racist.
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:26 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
He wouldn't need to be a "more advanced racist" (interesting turn of phrase) to have done something as a rude, sophomoric joke, the sort of thing fraternity boys are legendary for.
You are labelling him a "frat boy", so of course, you will have evidence that he is both a member of a fraternity and that his general behaviour matches that of a "frat boy"?

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Owning up to it only tells us that he saw a need to head off any more pointed criticism by making the claim that it was just a harmless display of garbage art with no other underlying intent.
Again, you proffer your opinion with zero evidence to support it.

How do you know whether of not he had any idea that his actions would cause any offence? You don't!

How do you know whether or not he owned up because of that? You don't!

How do you know whether or not he is telling the truth? You don't!

Do you have evidence (other than your unsupported assertions) that you know the answers to any of these three things?

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Something he could easily have done because he had no way of knowing that someone didn't see him do it, someone who might step forward when the episode garnered more attention than he had expected
Again, do you have evidence of this?

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It truly surprises me* that these perfectly reasonable alternatives seem so vanishingly unlikely to these who want to claim that there is nothing here to warrant any possibility of intent at all.

(*: No, it doesn't, actually.)
They are "vanishingly unlikely" in your opinion, but that is an unsupported, evidence-free assertion. There are other opinions, you just choose to hand-wave them away as if they don't count or aren't worthy of consideration.

I find his explanation totally believable (from personal experience) and his subsequent behaviour to be compelling evidence that his banana skin littering was not racially motivated
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:29 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What is the bar for that though? It is trivial to set the bar so high that nothing is ever racist.
With a presumption of innocence, it should be high.... bloody high!

I would accept a prior/track record of acting in racist manner.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:09 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes. However isn't the use of ambiguous insults one of the common tactics of bullies? If you can make your victim associate something otherwise perfectly innocent with your insults and threats, then you don't need to do nearly as much work, and you get to call them "snowflakes" as well.
Most of the bullies I've encountered are entirely unsubtle. Not at all like those mafia guys on television making ambiguous threats.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:10 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
With a presumption of innocence, it should be high.... bloody high!

I would accept a prior/track record of acting in racist manner.
This is a lot of the problem, the view of labeling an action as racist is so damning that you need huge amounts of proof. This inhibits the discussion of casual and unconscious racism. It inhibits personal growth from promoting self analysis of what effect race had on ones own actions and thoughts. Because the conclusion that one had racist actions leads to the damning label of being a racist.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:11 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Most of the bullies I've encountered are entirely unsubtle. Not at all like those mafia guys on television making ambiguous threats.
That you identify as bullies. But this isn't bullying it is just a joke.
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