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Old 6th September 2017, 06:02 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
These were things you were discarding?

Because if they weren't then the comparison lacks substance.

Now if you did so with the intent that they be more noticeable and less likely to be forgotten, then you might want to consider what that implies.
Sometimes to discard, sometimes because a tree was the nearest convenient place to set them down. I am not in the habit of tossing things on the ground.

I imagine that on college campuses hereafter a tree will no longer be needed to trigger a racial meltdown anyway, as the simple existence of a banana peel anywhere will automatically be interpreted as a deliberate reference to this incident.

Perhaps bananas should be banned from university campuses altogether.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:21 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Have none of you been to university in a while?

I was 27-29 when I wrapped up and all the 18-22s would constantly have me rubbing my forehead going "that's the strangest way to be lazy I think I've ever seen" only to then have to reset my scale yet again about another 15-20 minutes on. Remember, these kids grew up on Beavis and Butthead and I experienced no shortage of people who could have done a great live-action improv of one (or both) parts.
Sure, it’s absolutely plausible that he was just doing something stupid and was oblivious to the possible racist overtones. However, it’s not reasonable to go from “it’s plausible that he was just being a stupid 20 year old and didn’t intend it to be racist commentary” to “it obviously wasn’t racist and the students and faculty that were just overacting”. It’s just as plausible that they are reacting to real things that are happening on a regular basis on campus and/or with this particular student.

What’s disturbing in this thread is that even though there are two plausible explanations for events, the white student’s version is accepted out of hand with while the black student’s version isn’t just rejected out of hand, people are outraged that anyone would even consider acting on their behalf. The relatively limited facts we had initially didn’t justify taking sides like that, but many people jumped to that conclusion anyway.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:23 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
All true, but not really relevant. Its still no excuse for going on and on about it once it is known that there was no intent to threaten or intimidate, and that it was just rubbish being carelessly discarded. Once we reach this point, anyone who wants to go on beating the race angle drum is just nursing a grievance and shamelessly using it for nothing other than political point scoring.
I see your point, but as noted by others in the thread, the guy's excuse is not known to be true, as it seems highly implausible. I think it may be more likely that he hastily did it on purpose, maybe as a bad joke, and as things escalated he took the opportunity to defuse things with a very weak excuse, that many did not buy. When the situation was discussed afterwards, as reported upthread, the discussion turned 'unhealthy'. And that was when the event got cancelled. Sounds to me that the roundtable talk turned ugly, and that stopped the event more than the impromptru tree-trash art display.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:29 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
All true, but not really relevant. Its still no excuse for going on and on about it once it is known that there was no intent to threaten or intimidate, and that it was just rubbish being carelessly discarded.
It’s only “known” if you trust the white student without question and question the black student’s ability to figure out what’s going on around them without reason. Seemingly at least, this suggests attitudes of “I trust white people until the facts prove conclusively they are lying” and “I mistrust black people until the facts prove conclusively they have basis for what they are saying”.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:32 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What’s disturbing in this thread is that even though there are two plausible explanations for events, the white student’s version is accepted out of hand with while the black student’s version isn’t just rejected out of hand, people are outraged that anyone would even consider acting on their behalf. The relatively limited facts we had initially didn’t justify taking sides like that, but many people jumped to that conclusion anyway.
Well, that's not the way I've seen the thread.

There's a fair chunk of people posting that, though the initial reaction to the event was fair enough, it's the reaction after the chap admitted it was him and he was sorry and didn't intend to cause any offence. Which is what sort of gets me as well, to be frank. You'd have thought people would be pleased that the bad thing they thought was happening was actually simply a case of crossed-wires.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:41 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Sure, it’s absolutely plausible that he was just doing something stupid and was oblivious to the possible racist overtones. However, it’s not reasonable to go from “it’s plausible that he was just being a stupid 20 year old and didn’t intend it to be racist commentary” to “it obviously wasn’t racist and the students and faculty that were just overacting”. It’s just as plausible that they are reacting to real things that are happening on a regular basis on campus and/or with this particular student.

What’s disturbing in this thread is that even though there are two plausible explanations for events, the white student’s version is accepted out of hand with while the black student’s version isn’t just rejected out of hand, people are outraged that anyone would even consider acting on their behalf. The relatively limited facts we had initially didn’t justify taking sides like that, but many people jumped to that conclusion anyway.
Because supposition and evidence have different weights of validity.

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Old 6th September 2017, 07:06 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Sure, it’s absolutely plausible that he was just doing something stupid and was oblivious to the possible racist overtones. However, it’s not reasonable to go from “it’s plausible that he was just being a stupid 20 year old and didn’t intend it to be racist commentary” to “it obviously wasn’t racist and the students and faculty that were just overacting”. It’s just as plausible that they are reacting to real things that are happening on a regular basis on campus and/or with this particular student.

What’s disturbing in this thread is that even though there are two plausible explanations for events, the white student’s version is accepted out of hand with while the black student’s version isn’t just rejected out of hand, people are outraged that anyone would even consider acting on their behalf. The relatively limited facts we had initially didn’t justify taking sides like that, but many people jumped to that conclusion anyway.
Actually it doesn't matter what real case is. Such massive idiotic overreaction by those idiots gives tremendous power to every single troll out there over them.

And furthermore they perfectly fulfil those negative tropes about blacks from 30s...

They just should have ignored it or mock it. (Or at worst complain about sort of littering ro something)
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:19 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Because supposition and evidence have different weights of validity.

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How do you weigh the evidence from the participants that the group discussion afterward:

Originally Posted by OP
“You see how much fear and how much anger you insight in black people just from an unintentional image,” she said.
The conversation carried on, and tensions continued to rise. White and black members of the Ole Miss Greek community shared their views on the day’s events and race relations in general. McNeil said people had a lot to say, but the conversation began to move in an unhealthy direction.
The black student gave the benefit of the doubt that it was an 'unintentional image' (hilited above). Whites and blacks had 'a lot to say' about 'race relations in general' that took an 'unhealthy' turn, resulting in the cancellation.

Does this still sound like it was about a banana peel?
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:20 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Because supposition and evidence have different weights of validity.
Apparently it’s “evidence” when a white person says something and “supposition” is when a black person says something because the only distinction I can see here is who people are choosing to believe.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:31 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Actually it doesn't matter what real case is. Such massive idiotic overreaction by those idiots gives tremendous power to every single troll out there over them.

And furthermore they perfectly fulfil those negative tropes about blacks from 30s...
The evidence presented doesn’t support there being any over-reaction on the part of the faculty. Clearly however, the outrage over their decision is over-reaction at the very least, and probably racially motivated over-reaction as well.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:35 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post

What’s disturbing in this thread is that even though there are two plausible explanations for events, the white student’s version is accepted out of hand with while the black student’s version isn’t just rejected out of hand, people are outraged that anyone would even consider acting on their behalf. The relatively limited facts we had initially didn’t justify taking sides like that, but many people jumped to that conclusion anyway.
That is silly, there is no dispute that a white student put the banana peel in the tree, admitted it and apologized. There is no white version or black version of this whatsoever.

The dispute, if any, is whether the resulting furor was justified or not (clearly it was not)
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:36 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Apparently it’s “evidence” when a white person says something and “supposition” is when a black person says something because the only distinction I can see here is who people are choosing to believe.
I think the person who put the banana in the tree has more insight into the intentions behind putting the banana in the tree than people who are not the person who put the banana in the tree, nor witnessed it being placed in the tree.

Unless they are mind readers. If they are mind readers, I'll accept their version as equally valid.

Do you believe the accusing party has mind reading abilities?

Why do you just automatically assume that racial hostility is the only factor others are resting their conclusions on? You not only suppose that as a possibility, but the only possibility ("the only distinction").
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:36 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s only “known” if you trust the white student without question and question the black student’s ability to figure out what’s going on around them without reason. Seemingly at least, this suggests attitudes of “I trust white people until the facts prove conclusively they are lying” and “I mistrust black people until the facts prove conclusively they have basis for what they are saying”.
Oh for Pete's sake. This is absurd.

What it suggests is that the most likely explanation for a banana peel is that someone was eating a banana.


We can be mildly amused but generally tolerant of a suspicion that it might mean something other than that, but when the actual banana-eater comes forward and confesses to improper peel disposal, that really ought to close the books on the incident, regardless of the skin color of the repentant litterbug.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:41 AM   #174
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It's ok to assume a white person's dissenting view is racially motivated.

/nods emphatically

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Old 6th September 2017, 07:51 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Apparently it’s “evidence” when a white person says something and “supposition” is when a black person says something because the only distinction I can see here is who people are choosing to believe.
Are you asserting that my interpretation as to what your motivation is for any given action is equally as credible as your interpretation of your motivation for the same act?
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:59 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Apparently it’s “evidence” when a white person says something and “supposition” is when a black person says something because the only distinction I can see here is who people are choosing to believe.
There was a question of motive. Some black people speculated that the motive was racist intimidation. That is to say, supposition. It isn't supposition because they were black, but because that's what it's called.

Then the person who acted was found, and testified that their motive was not racism, but simple laziness. That's not supposition. A person cannot reasonably speculate about their own motive in this context. They know why they did it. Either their testimony is honest, or dishonest. Either way, it is evidence. Again, this has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the nature of the thing itself.

Students--black or white or any other damn color--are free to speculate about whether he's lying about his motive. But absent any other evidence, such as a history of racist trolling, that's all it is: Speculation.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:00 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is silly, there is no dispute that a white student put the banana peel in the tree, admitted it and apologized. There is no white version or black version of this whatsoever.

The dispute, if any, is whether the resulting furor was justified or not (clearly it was not)
Not according to the participants. On what grounds do you dismiss the evidence that the ugly discussion including race relations in general was the direct cause of the cancellation, as reported?
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:03 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Not according to the participants. On what grounds do you dismiss the evidence that the ugly discussion including race relations in general was the direct cause of the cancellation, as reported?
On the grounds that it was a banana peel in a tree
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:07 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
On the grounds that it was a banana peel in a tree
That is not the reported cause of the cancellation. Most posters are completely ignoring this.

The reported cause of the event cancellation was a roundtable talk that went south, and the black students felt intimidated/unwelcome. The banana was already given credibility as an 'unintentional image'.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:08 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Not according to the participants. On what grounds do you dismiss the evidence that the ugly discussion including race relations in general was the direct cause of the cancellation, as reported?
The participants are never going to report, "We had to cancel the conference because I got all whiny and held my breath until I turned blue."
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:10 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The participants are never going to report, "We had to cancel the conference because I got all whiny and held my breath until I turned blue."
Citing reported evidence > making stuff up
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:13 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Citing reported evidence > making stuff up
It would be nice if that position were consistently maintained.

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Old 6th September 2017, 08:16 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Citing reported evidence > making stuff up
I confess to a certain degree of speculation on this point.

Yes, the participants reported that a race relations discussion went south.

Now we have to speculate about why a group of young adults with nearby faculty advisors could not manage to hold a civil discussion about race relations, even after a banana peel was found in a tree. We have to speculate why people at a leadership conference became so hostile that the conference couldn't continue.

My speculation involves whininess on the part of the participants.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:20 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That is not the reported cause of the cancellation. Most posters are completely ignoring this.

The reported cause of the event cancellation was a roundtable talk that went south, and the black students felt intimidated/unwelcome. The banana was already given credibility as an 'unintentional image'.
That isn't what the "victim" of the "banana peel incident" said. "My sister took a picture of the banana and sent it to other NPHC members, most of whom responded with immediate urgency. For most black participants, the image of the banana in the tree was jarring, an overt sign that we weren’t welcome."

(NPHC is a group of historically black sororities)
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:21 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That is not the reported cause of the cancellation. Most posters are completely ignoring this.

The reported cause of the event cancellation was a roundtable talk that went south, and the black students felt intimidated/unwelcome. The banana was already given credibility as an 'unintentional image'.
Did they really feel intimidated/unwelcome? Or is it equally credible that Meadmakers supposition of " whininess " is valid?
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:22 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I confess to a certain degree of speculation on this point.

Yes, the participants reported that a race relations discussion went south.

Now we have to speculate about why a group of young adults with nearby faculty advisors could not manage to hold a civil discussion about race relations, even after a banana peel was found in a tree. We have to speculate why people at a leadership conference became so hostile that the conference couldn't continue.

My speculation involves whininess on the part of the participants.
That's a fair argument. My speculation would be that in the deep South, race relations are highly strained, and the banana incident prompted people at the table to get vocal about the larger issues, perhaps regrettably phrased. I find that very likely, given the reporting.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:22 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Did they really feel intimidated/unwelcome? Or is it equally credible that Meadmakers supposition of " whininess " is valid?
The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:25 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That isn't what the "victim" of the "banana peel incident" said. "My sister took a picture of the banana and sent it to other NPHC members, most of whom responded with immediate urgency. For most black participants, the image of the banana in the tree was jarring, an overt sign that we weren’t welcome."

(NPHC is a group of historically black sororities)
Yes, that was how it started. The reporting of the discussion then acknowledged that the imagery was unintentional. People of both races reportedly got fired up and escalated the situation.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:28 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Did they really feel intimidated/unwelcome? Or is it equally credible that Meadmakers supposition of " whininess " is valid?
According to the OP report, yes. Using 'feeling unwelcome' specifically. It is of course valid that they are lying, but before trotting off to various conspiracies, maybe a little evidence would be fair?

On what specific grounds would you discount the reporting? Very specifically, why would you say that the blacks were being whiny?
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:29 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That's a fair argument. My speculation would be that in the deep South, race relations are highly strained, and the banana incident prompted people at the table to get vocal about the larger issues, perhaps regrettably phrased. I find that very likely, given the reporting.
Possibly, that seems a likely outcome.
Also possible that non-minority participants became agitated at being confronted on the larger issues for an extended period of time simply because someone tossed a banana peel in a tree.
I know that I would have a threshold at which I would feel that "enough is enough" should I be included in another drawn out discussion on racial sensitivity at my workplace because someone carelessly discarded a banana peel.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:30 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is silly, there is no dispute that a white student put the banana peel in the tree, admitted it and apologized.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

The dispute, if any, is whether the resulting furor was justified or not (clearly it was not)
Again you say that with no evidence.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:33 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
According to the OP report, yes. Using 'feeling unwelcome' specifically. It is of course valid that they are lying, but before trotting off to various conspiracies, maybe a little evidence would be fair?

On what specific grounds would you discount the reporting? Very specifically, why would you say that the blacks were being whiny?
My post was an attempt to sarcastically illustrate that (as discussed above) a self reported motivation, sans compelling evidence to the contrary, carries a greater weight of validity than the supposition of a third party.

I accept as valid that some of the participants withdrew due to their stated reasons.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:33 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yes, that was how it started. The reporting of the discussion then acknowledged that the imagery was unintentional. People of both races reportedly got fired up and escalated the situation.
Yeah, you just said that "The reported cause of the event cancellation was a roundtable talk that went south, and the black students felt intimidated/unwelcome." The facts are that the "victims" felt "unwelcome" merely by seeing the banana peel in the tree.

There is also no evidence at all that "both races got fired up" that is pure and wrong speculation.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:36 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Evidence?

Again you say that with no evidence.
Oh dear, it has already been posted in this very thread. Oh well:

Quote:
She said Swanson stood up and came forward almost immediately after the question. He apologized and said he did not mean any harm by leaving the peel in the tree.
“I want to sincerely apologize for the events that took place this past weekend,” Swanson said in a statement to The DM on Tuesday night. “Although unintentional, there is no excuse for the pain that was caused to members of our community.
“I want to thank my friends in the NPHC for their candid and constructive conversations that we have continued to have. I have much to learn and look forward to doing such and encourage all members of our university community to do the same. We must all keep in mind how our actions affect those around us differently.”
Blown away that you missed this.

here is another link

http://thedmonline.com/greek-life-re...bias-concerns/
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:36 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Possibly, that seems a likely outcome.
Also possible that non-minority participants became agitated at being confronted on the larger issues for an extended period of time simply because someone tossed a banana peel in a tree.
I know that I would have a threshold at which I would feel that "enough is enough" should I be included in another drawn out discussion on racial sensitivity at my workplace because someone carelessly discarded a banana peel.
And that's a fair point, one that I imagine a lot of whites have. I admit to thinking along those lines sometimes.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
My post was an attempt to sarcastically illustrate that (as discussed above) a self reported motivation, sans compelling evidence to the contrary, carries a greater weight of validity than the supposition of a third party.

I accept as valid that some of the participants withdrew due to their stated reasons.
Missed the sarcasm, my bad
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:38 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Evidence?
From the first link in the OP

Quote:
McNeil said her sorority sister then raised her hand to simply ask who put the peel in the tree.
She said Swanson stood up and came forward almost immediately after the question. He apologized and said he did not mean any harm by leaving the peel in the tree.
“I want to sincerely apologize for the events that took place this past weekend,” Swanson said in a statement to The DM on Tuesday night. “Although unintentional, there is no excuse for the pain that was caused to members of our community.
“I want to thank my friends in the NPHC for their candid and constructive conversations that we have continued to have. I have much to learn and look forward to doing such and encourage all members of our university community to do the same. We must all keep in mind how our actions affect those around us differently.”
/sigh
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:40 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, you just said that "The reported cause of the event cancellation was a roundtable talk that went south, and the black students felt intimidated/unwelcome." The facts are that the "victims" felt "unwelcome" merely by seeing the banana peel in the tree.

There is also no evidence at all that "both races got fired up" that is pure and wrong speculation.
Pants on fire, TBD. A brief excerpt is on post #168 for your convenience, assuming you didn't read the OP from whence it came.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:45 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Pants on fire, TBD. A brief excerpt is on post #168 for your convenience, assuming you didn't read the OP from whence it came.
That absolutely does not support your conclusion that both races got fired up, not by a long shot.

The actual fact is that the whites were either supportive or apathetic.

Do some research before you accuse others of lying.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:48 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Pants on fire, TBD. A brief excerpt is on post #168 for your convenience, assuming you didn't read the OP from whence it came.
The excerpt states that lots of people spoke and things went south ("in an unhealthy direction"), but doesn't make reference to the ethnic distribution of emotional reactions.

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Old 6th September 2017, 08:48 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Oh for Pete's sake. This is absurd.

What it suggests is that the most likely explanation for a banana peel is that someone was eating a banana.
Nice strawman, but why was it (a known racist prop) hanging prominently in a tree outside a space occupied by a black sorority?

Sure there “could” be some innocent explanation for a known racist prop to be displayed in such a location but there is no evidence it was innocent other than the student denying it. The problem is that he was going to deny any racist intent regardless, his explanation was really weird and when faculty tried to investigate, things turned racist and hateful.

The only overreaction I see anywhere is people overacting to the fact the faculty didn’t just side with the white student immediately. Given the way things played out, it’s pretty clear that they should not have, but apparently when a white people say there is no racial motivation behind what they are doing it’s outrageous if people don’t just shut up about it.
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