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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:04 AM   #1
Kumar
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Lightbulb Potential Energy--Dynamics?

Hello,

Many time, Potential Energy(PE) confuses me. Very simple question:

Whether PE is potential to work or potential to return to origional(natural, rest, grounded..) position?

I mean for example, a pendulum at rest(its natural position) should have maximum potential to move on both sides whereas on moving, it has potential to come back to rest(its natural position).

Many such examples can be noticed on this link:
http://examples.yourdictionary.com/e...al-energy.html

Best wishes.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:24 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Hello,

Many time, Potential Energy(PE) confuses me. Very simple question:

Whether PE is potential to work or potential to return to origional(natural, rest, grounded..) position?

I mean for example, a pendulum at rest(its natural position) should have maximum potential to move on both sides whereas on moving, it has potential to come back to rest(its natural position).

Many such examples can be noticed on this link:
http://examples.yourdictionary.com/e...al-energy.html

Best wishes.
If you cut the pendulum string/chain/whatever it will fall. Thus it still has PE.

No, homeopathy still doesn't work.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
If you cut the pendulum string/chain/whatever it will fall. Thus it still has PE.

No, homeopathy still doesn't work.
Pls avoid derailing the thread.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:35 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Hello,

Many time, Potential Energy(PE) confuses me. Very simple question:

Whether PE is potential to work or potential to return to origional(natural, rest, grounded..) position?

Yes. It's the potential to move to a state of lower potential energy, and this can be used to do work.

Quote:
I mean for example, a pendulum at rest(its natural position) should have maximum potential to move on both sides whereas on moving, it has potential to come back to rest(its natural position).

The lowest point is not the "natural position", it is merely the point at which its potential energy is at minimum. Its kinetic energy at this point will be at maximum. All positions in which the pendulum can be are equally "natural", and an ideal pendulum, on which friction didn't act, would continue to swing indefinitely.

And the "natural" condition of things is not to be at rest; it is to have constant velocity unless a force acts on them. See Newton's first law of motion.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:49 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Hello,

Many time, Potential Energy(PE) confuses me. Very simple question:

[...].
There is no such thing as a "natural position".

Everything you know is wrong.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:51 AM   #6
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[quote=Mojo;11981505]Yes. It's the potential to move to a state of lower potential energy, and this can be used to do work.{/quote]

I meant when pendulum is at rest without moving(not in lowest position while moving). It has maximum potential to move if force is applied it to move. Then, with pendulum at rest will be treated as having maximum PE?



Quote:
The lowest point is not the "natural position", it is merely the point at which its potential energy is at minimum. Its kinetic energy at this point will be at maximum. All positions in which the pendulum can be are equally "natural", and an ideal pendulum, on which friction didn't act, would continue to swing indefinitely.

And the "natural" condition of things is not to be at rest; it is to have constant velocity unless a force acts on them. See Newton's first law of motion.
Do you mean, a moving penulum is its natural possition and at rest not?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
There is no such thing as a "natural position".

Everything you know is wrong.
Therefore I am asking. In another example, whether an electron in its grounded/lowest position is not its natural position?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:56 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Therefore I am asking. In another example, whether an electron in its grounded/lowest position is not its natural position?
There is no such thing as a "natural position" of an electron.

Everything you know is wrong.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:58 AM   #9
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The pendulum is at its maximum gravitational potential energy when momentarily stopped at the ends of its travel, if that's what you're asking.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
The pendulum is at its maximum gravitational potential energy when momentarily stopped at the ends of its travel, if that's what you're asking.
No but just at rest. At this position, what is its PE, maximum, minimum or nil?

A new question will be:

Whether PE is dependent of its acquired energy? Say, In moving pendulum, it will itself come to rest position without applying any force but outside force will be needed to move it. How it can be relevant to PE?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:05 AM   #11
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It just occurred to me that you are leaning towards Aristotle's theory of gravity. It was proven wrong in the eleventh century.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:06 AM   #12
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What do you mean by 'at rest'? At the ends of its travel, or not perturbed at all and sitting in the middle, or what?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I meant when pendulum is at rest without moving(not in lowest position while moving). It has maximum potential to move if force is applied it to move. Then, with pendulum at rest will be treated as having maximum PE?

No, if a freely hanging pendulum is at rest it will be in its state of minimum potential energy. Potential energy isn't "potential to move when force is applied", it is energy that the pendulum has because of its position relative to the direction of gravity.

A swinging pendulum has maximum potential energy, and minimum kinetic energy, at the top of its swing, and minimum potential energy, and maximum kinetic energy, at the bottom.

Quote:
Do you mean, a moving penulum is its natural possition and at rest not?

No, I mean that things have constant velocity unless a force acts on them. No velocity is any more "natural" than any other velocity. And there is no position that a pendulum can be in that is any more "natural" than any other position it can be in.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Therefore I am asking. In another example, whether an electron in its grounded/lowest position is not its natural position?

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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:14 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
A new question will be:

Whether PE is dependent of its acquired energy? Say, In moving pendulum, it will itself come to rest position without applying any force but outside force will be needed to move it. How it can be relevant to PE?
A moving pendulum will come to rest as it loses potential and kinetic energy to frictional forces. The maximum PE it has at the end of each swing will decrease.

The sentence "whether PE is dependent on its acquired energy" does not make sense.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:15 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No, if a freely hanging pendulum is at rest it will be in its state of minimum potential energy. Potential energy isn't "potential to move when force is applied", it is energy that the pendulum has because of its position relative to the direction of gravity.

A swinging pendulum has maximum potential energy, and minimum kinetic energy, at the top of its swing, and minimum potential energy, and maximum kinetic energy, at the bottom.




No, I mean that things have constant velocity unless a force acts on them. No velocity is any more "natural" than any other velocity. And there is no position that a pendulum can be in that is any more "natural" than any other position it can be in.
Thanks. Is it universal law or Global--on earth affected by earth's gravity?

Surprising, we do not anticipate "natural position"

Let me first define "natural": to me, it is " inharent sense of right or wrong" and natural to us: "to which we have inharent sense or right or wrong".

So we know, if we will leave pendulum at it is without intervention, it will come to rest position. As this is our inharent sense, so it is its natural position to us. ?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
A moving pendulum will come to rest as it loses potential and kinetic energy to frictional forces. The maximum PE it has at the end of each swing will decrease.

The sentence "whether PE is dependent on its acquired energy" does not make sense.
Do you mean that at every position, pendulum will have PE?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:18 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
The pendulum is at its maximum gravitational potential energy when momentarily stopped at the ends of its travel, if that's what you're asking.
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
No but just at rest. At this position, what is its PE, maximum, minimum or nil?

What part of "the pendulum is at its maximum gravitational potential energy" do you not understand?

Quote:
A new question will be:

Whether PE is dependent of its acquired energy? Say, In moving pendulum, it will itself come to rest position without applying any force but outside force will be needed to move it.

The point at which a swinging pendulum is not moving is at the top of its swing. At this point its potential energy is at maximum, and its kinetic energy is zero. From this position it will return to its "rest position" because of the force that gravity exerts on it. But it will not stay there, because at that point tge potential energy will have been converted to kinetic energy.

Quote:
How it can be relevant to PE?

You really, really, need to take an elementary physics course.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:20 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Thanks. Is it universal law or Global--on earth affected by earth's gravity?

Surprising, we do not anticipate "natural position"

Let me first define "natural": to me, it is " inharent sense of right or wrong" and natural to us: "to which we have inharent sense or right or wrong".

So we know, if we will leave pendulum at it is without intervention, it will come to rest position. As this is our inharent sense, so it is its natural position to us. ?

Pendulums do not have a sense of right and wrong. And even from a human perspective, what makes some positions of a pendulum more or less "wrong" than others?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:21 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Your monogram.

Anyway, do you want to tell, there is no position when PE is nil and all substances in any position or condition have PE--higher or lower?

Be careful.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:22 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Pendulums do not have a sense of right and wrong. And even from a human perspective, what makes some positions of a pendulum more or less "wrong" than others?
By earth's gravity perspective?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:26 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
By earth's gravity perspective?

The earth, and gravity, do not have a sense of right and wrong. The lowest point of a pendulum is just its point of lowest potential energy. There is nothing "wrong" about things having potential energy.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Your monogram.

Anyway, do you want to tell, there is no position when PE is nil and all substances in any position or condition have PE--higher or lower?

Be careful.

Kumar, read this:
Quote:
If you cut the pendulum string/chain/whatever it will fall. Thus it still has PE.

That's the very first reply to this thread. You evidently didn't understand it.

The pendulum, as a pendulum, has its lowest potential energy at the bottom of its swing. That doesn't mean that it has no potential energy at all. But for the gravitational potential energy it has at that point to come into play it must cease to be a pendulum, and become simply a free-moving mass.

And no, there are no states below ground state.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Thanks. Is it universal law or Global--on earth affected by earth's gravity?

Surprising, we do not anticipate "natural position"

Let me first define "natural": to me, it is " inharent sense of right or wrong" and natural to us: "to which we have inharent sense or right or wrong".

So we know, if we will leave pendulum at it is without intervention, it will come to rest position. As this is our inharent sense, so it is its natural position to us. ?

Kumar, a pendulum will eventually come to rest because its potential and kinetic energy will be lost to friction. It will come to rest at the lowest point of its swing because at that point there is no force that can move it in a direction in which it can move. It is nothing to do with whether that position is any more "natural" than any other position, or whether movement is somehow "wrong".
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Old 2nd September 2017, 03:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Kumar, a pendulum will eventually come to rest because its potential and kinetic energy will be lost to friction. It will come to rest at the lowest point of its swing because at that point there is no force that can move it in a direction in which it can move. It is nothing to do with whether that position is any more "natural" than any other position, or whether movement is somehow "wrong".
Ok, simply tell, whether there is any position or condition of any sustenance which has nil PE?
2. Whether all changes in position n condition of any substance also change its PE level?😢
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Old 2nd September 2017, 04:30 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Ok, simply tell, whether there is any position or condition of any sustenance which has nil PE?

Sustenance has chemical potential energy, otherwise it wouldn't sustain.

Quote:
2. Whether all changes in position n condition of any substance also change its PE level?��



The changes need to be relative to whatever is causing the object to have potential energy. For example moving something sideways does not change its gravitational potential energy, but moving it up or down will.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 04:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Your monogram.

Only because there isn't one saying "not even wrong".
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Old 2nd September 2017, 04:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Sustenance has chemical potential energy, otherwise it wouldn't sustain.






The changes need to be relative to whatever is causing the object to have potential energy. For example moving something sideways does not change its gravitational potential energy, but moving it up or down will.
It means nothing is without PE.

Ok, up or down, but if PE is not relevant to change in position n condition?

Say for example, if you dissolve some salt in water then remove it. Will it cause change in PE of water?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It means nothing is without PE.

Ok, up or down, but if PE is not relevant to change in position n condition?

I suggest that you go and find out what potential energy is. Actually, it would probably have been a good idea to do this 14 years ago before you started posting nonsense about it here.

Quote:
Say for example, if you dissolve some salt in water then remove it. Will it cause change in PE of water?

How do you plan on removing it?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:16 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Say, In moving pendulum, it will itself come to rest position without applying any force but outside force will be needed to move it. ?


Wrong. Air creates friction on the pendulum. That's a force. It's not a force applied by humans, but it's a force.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:25 AM   #31
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Here is Kumar trying the same gambit in 2003. And 2005.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:38 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It means nothing is without PE.

Ok, up or down, but if PE is not relevant to change in position n condition?
If you consider the Earth as a closed system then a stationary object at the Earth's centre of gravity would have absolute zero PE- it cannot fall. But in everyday terms, the h in PE=mgh is usually the height above the solid surface directly below the object that might fall, the surface that will arrest its fall - the Earth's surface if you drop a ball, say, or the bottom of the well if you drop the bucket down there.

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Say for example, if you dissolve some salt in water then remove it. Will it cause change in PE of water?
I was seriously wondering how a chat about PE could possibly lead on to homeopathy. But I don't know your debate techniques as well as most here.

Your pendulum discussion related to physical PE. Chemical PE is a different concept. Which do you want to discuss?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:28 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
If you consider the Earth as a closed system then a stationary object at the Earth's centre of gravity would have absolute zero PE- it cannot fall. But in everyday terms, the h in PE=mgh is usually the height above the solid surface directly below the object that might fall, the surface that will arrest its fall - the Earth's surface if you drop a ball, say, or the bottom of the well if you drop the bucket down there.
Thanks but it is quite technical to condider for our day to day life.

I was simply trying to understand, natural position of any substance on earth not to universe. Probably, a pendulum at rest may be its natural position on earth. However other posters have denied the possibility of natural position.

Quote:
I was seriously wondering how a chat about PE could possibly lead on to homeopathy. But I don't know your debate techniques as well as most here.

Your pendulum discussion related to physical PE. Chemical PE is a different concept. Which do you want to discuss?
Probably, all changes in position and condition of any substance also change its potential energy....physically or chemically. ?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:30 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I suggest that you go and find out what potential energy is. Actually, it would probably have been a good idea to do this 14 years ago before you started posting nonsense about it here.




How do you plan on removing it?
I shall.

Diluting out.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:35 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Probably, all changes in position and condition of any substance also change its potential energy....physically or chemically. ?
Those are two different things.

If you take a piece of bread from the table and put it on the floor you've changed it's physical PE but not it's chemical PE.

What kind of PE are you talking about with your 'salt in water' idea?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 07:09 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I shall.

Diluting out.

Water is water. The state of water that used to have salt in it is the same as the state of water that does not yet have salt in it.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 07:27 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
What kind of PE are you talking about with your 'salt in water' idea?

He's talking about a special kind of PE that is specific to the salt that is no longer there.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 08:05 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
He's talking about a special kind of PE that is specific to the salt that is no longer there.
Yeah, this occurred to me a little later. Mine was a stupid question.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 08:06 AM   #39
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But how ever. If pedlum is made of 20-kilo concrete block, cutting string can impart great damn painful if you or kumar do not move foot away out of wrong place. Cursing with bad words A % F then, oh my goodness yes! Bad words are NO NO. Argumentum tell all this in before post.

Inadvartently, but he telling it, do not try to lie too much please.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 08:20 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Ok, simply tell, whether there is any position or condition of any sustenance which has nil PE?
2. Whether all changes in position n condition of any substance also change its PE level?😢
On order to be a pendulum, it must exist in an acceleration field. In a free_fall condition, pendulums don't exist.
As a part of a system, the pendulum has zero PE at the lowest point WRT the acceleration field it exist in.
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