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Old 13th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #1
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Loquerisne Latine?

I am relearning Latin, and I was hoping to find a "conversation partner". Anybody know latin, or want to improve your latin, who would like to email with me? Gratias!
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Old 13th September 2017, 11:43 AM   #2
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Lavaeolus?
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:58 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Lavaeolus?
Rincewind doesn't speak Latin; having been forcibly taught in school, he has chosen to forget all of it. He has German and French, I have Latin and Spanish. Thankfully we both have English!
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:18 PM   #4
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Donna Noble: "Veni, Vidi, Vinci!"
Pompeii guy: "ME NO SPEAK CELTIC!"
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Old 14th September 2017, 05:58 PM   #5
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https://forum.wordreference.com/foru...tina-latin.64/
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:45 AM   #6
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I manage a semblance of English, but that's it.

Languages are foreign to me.
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Old 15th September 2017, 02:43 AM   #7
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Do you know anyone in Cambridge?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=318376
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Old 15th September 2017, 04:39 AM   #8
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I had two years of high-school Latin in Catholic School back in the early 60s. My memory of this period consists mostly of "Omnis Gallia in tres parties divisi est" or something to that effect.
That and the teacher (a really nice guy) translating a phrase as "The Romans were outstanding in their clothes" which provoked general laughter.

The Catholic Church stopped doing Latin at mass while I was still in elementary school, which was good because I pretty much didn't have a clue as to what was going on.

I did figure out that "Ite, Missa est" meant the damned thing was over.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #9
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Church Latin isn't the same Latin Romans spoke. It's corrupted, became their own thing. Apparently it (church Latin) is the language of the Vatican state, as in all official documents have to be written in it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Gracias!

Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I'm in the armpit of nowhere hon lol
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Old 16th September 2017, 04:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Church Latin isn't the same Latin Romans spoke. It's corrupted, became their own thing. Apparently it (church Latin) is the language of the Vatican state, as in all official documents have to be written in it.
It's pretty complicated... What I imagine you are studying is classical latin. This isn't the Latin the Roman's spoke, it's the Latin they wrote. The spoken dialects of Latin are usually referred to as "Vulgar Latin"; these eventually developed into the Romance languages.

Classical Latin developed into Medieval and eventually Renaissance Latin, the scholarly lingua franca used by theologians and scientists alike.

So-called Ecclesiastical Latin, the official Vatican language, as I understand it is an Early Modern construction. It's based on the Latin of the Vulgate Bible (conventionally considered the first work of Medieval Latin), presumably influenced by the scholarly Latin of its time, with simplified syntax and pronunciation which is based on Italian. So it's based on Latin similar to what the Romans wrote, but heavily influenced by further developments of their vernacular.

Constructed "official" languages were pretty popular, at least in the second milennium. For example, so-called "Ottoman Turkish" is a particularly notorious beast, with a vocabulary that is mostly Persian and partially Arabic, written in a particularly illegible form of Perso-Arabic script, composed with Turkish grammar. The Mughals also had a form of "Court Persian", but I believe it was fairly similar to vernacular Persian and not a Turkic language with Persian pasted on top...

Similarly, many East Asian countries had "official" or ceremonial languages based on Classical Chinese, even when their vernacular had no relationship to the Chinese Language. Famously Emperor Hirohito gave his surrender speech in "Classical Japanese", which was largely Classical Chinese with Japanese pronunciation of the signs. Apparently, this was utterly incomprehensible to the average person, but usually each village had someone who had a scholarly education and could grasp the gist of it.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:36 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
This isn't the Latin the Roman's spoke, it's the Latin they wrote.
I imagine that in very early days they started off by writing the sorts of words they spoke, and I wonder at what point the written and spoken languages started to become distinct. The case is different for Latin on one hand, and Ottoman Turkish or Japanese on the other, where artificial languages were invented by empires. But I don't suppose that was the situation in the early Roman res publica.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I imagine that in very early days they started off by writing the sorts of words they spoke, and I wonder at what point the written and spoken languages started to become distinct. The case is different for Latin on one hand, and Ottoman Turkish or Japanese on the other, where artificial languages were invented by empires. But I don't suppose that was the situation in the early Roman res publica.
The comparison was with Ecclesiastic Latin which is a sort-of artificial language.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:18 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The comparison was with Ecclesiastic Latin which is a sort-of artificial language.
It is, and there was an Empire to invent it - the Church. but I was interested in what you had to say about its background.
classical latin ... isn't the Latin the Roman's spoke, it's the Latin they wrote. ... Classical Latin developed into Medieval and eventually Renaissance Latin, the scholarly lingua franca used by theologians and scientists alike.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:25 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It is, and there was an Empire to invent it - the Church. but I was interested in what you had to say about its background.
classical latin ... isn't the Latin the Roman's spoke, it's the Latin they wrote. ... Classical Latin developed into Medieval and eventually Renaissance Latin, the scholarly lingua franca used by theologians and scientists alike.
Ah, right.

I don't know how different vernacular and written Latin were, or how much we even know about it. But it's always worth taking into account how different spoken and written languages can be.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Ah, right.

I don't know how different vernacular and written Latin were, or how much we even know about it. But it's always worth taking into account how different spoken and written languages can be.
Indeed it is. I find it very interesting.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:45 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
It's pretty complicated... What I imagine you are studying is classical latin. This isn't the Latin the Roman's spoke, it's the Latin they wrote. The spoken dialects of Latin are usually referred to as "Vulgar Latin"; these eventually developed into the Romance languages.
Is the distinction between Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin one between spoken and written language, or were they two sociolects? When the Roman man-in-the-street spoke about a horse, they'd say "caballus" (hence, e.g., the French word cheval). When, say, Cicero wrote about a horse, he'd write "equus". But when Cicero spoke about a horse, what did he say?
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Ah, right.

I don't know how different vernacular and written Latin were, or how much we even know about it. But it's always worth taking into account how different spoken and written languages can be.
AFAIK, most of our knowledge of Vulgar Latin comes from the Romance languages that descended from it.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
AFAIK, most of our knowledge of Vulgar Latin comes from the Romance languages that descended from it.
There's also e.g. the Vulgate Bible, which wasn't written in vernacular per se, but in a significantly less conservative language than the normal scholarly Latin of the time. I imagine a bit can be gleaned from that.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Is the distinction between Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin one between spoken and written language, or were they two sociolects? When the Roman man-in-the-street spoke about a horse, they'd say "caballus" (hence, e.g., the French word cheval). When, say, Cicero wrote about a horse, he'd write "equus". But when Cicero spoke about a horse, what did he say?
The distinction is formally between written and spoken. Keep in mind that basically all writing at the time, including personal letters, was highly formalized and stylized, with formulaic greetings and invocations of gods and so on.

If anything distinguished the speech of the upper class it was more likely to be casual use of Greek (ανερριφθο κυβοσ, not alea iacta est, and so forth).

What I do wonder is if there's a distinction between Latin oratory and Latin writing. My intuition is that oratory would generally be delivered in written language, but I'm not fluent enough to know if there is a distinction between Cicero's speeches and other writings (most other, theoretically less formal recorded oratory, eg as given before battles, is just made up by the author).
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:29 PM   #21
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Stuff that bugs me: I have just misread "latine" as "latrine". For about the eighth time.
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Old 18th September 2017, 03:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
When the Roman man-in-the-street spoke about a horse, they'd say "caballus" (hence, e.g., the French word cheval). When, say, Cicero wrote about a horse, he'd write "equus". But when Cicero spoke about a horse, what did he say?
Equus. (Or hippos.) There was no such thing as a language invented just for writing & spoken by nobody; written language was always based on the speech of the reading & writing class.
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Old 24th September 2017, 03:48 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Equus. (Or hippos.)

That must have caused some awkward moments, when some patrician would try to call for a horse and the stable hands would saddle up a hippopotamus instead.
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Old 25th September 2017, 01:59 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That must have caused some awkward moments, when some patrician would try to call for a horse and the stable hands would saddle up a hippopotamus instead.
"River horse". Why a horse, I've always wondered. These things look more like pigs.
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Old 8th October 2017, 05:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
"River horse". Why a horse, I've always wondered. These things look more like pigs.
We'd be calling them something like xyropotamuses then.
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Old 9th October 2017, 05:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
We'd be calling them something like xyropotamuses then.
What's wrong with "xyropotami"?
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Old 9th October 2017, 06:05 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What's wrong with "xyropotami"?
Greek root. The Greek plural would be "-potamoi".
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Old 9th October 2017, 11:16 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Greek root. The Greek plural would be "-potamoi".
I thought of that, then I remembered "Hippopotami". This authority has no truck with your "hippopotamoi" and I've just noticed my spellcheck changes that to "hippopotami" as well.
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Old 9th October 2017, 12:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I thought of that, then I remembered "Hippopotami". This authority has no truck with your "hippopotamoi" and I've just noticed my spellcheck changes that to "hippopotami" as well.
Ah right, "-i" is the second declension in Latin (-oi in Greek). So I guess most Graeco-Latin words inherit that. It'd the third declension where things are all over the place and we get things like "index - indices", "matrix -
matrices" and "octopus - octopodes". Greek inflects consistently in the third declension, but Latin is a bit more random.
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Old 9th October 2017, 12:30 PM   #30
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Hippopottamussesses.
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Old 10th October 2017, 01:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Ah right, "-i" is the second declension in Latin (-oi in Greek). So I guess most Graeco-Latin words inherit that.
At least those of the second declension. And it's hippopotami and not hippopotamoi because in English, it's a loanword from Latin where in turn it was a loanword from Greek.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
It'd the third declension where things are all over the place and we get things like "index - indices", "matrix -
matrices" and "octopus - octopodes". Greek inflects consistently in the third declension, but Latin is a bit more random.
The Latin third declension is not so random when you look from the perspective of the stem of the nouns: the stem is the genitive minus the -is ending. The nominative originates from the stem + s, without a vowel in between. That may, depending on the ending consonant of the stem, result in elision of the consonant, or merging of the two consonants, and/or a change of the last vowel. But if you look at it from that perspective, the result is quite regular. The difference between
* index from indic- + -s
* matrix from matric- + -s
is that in the first case, the last 'i' is short and in the second case, it's long. And in both cases, obviously, the 'cs' combination produces an 'x' (as 'c' was always pronounced as 'k' in classical Latin).

For the rest, the Latin third declension the oddity of the "pure i-stems" (only half a dozen nouns) which have -im and -i in accusative and ablative singular and -ium in genitive plural, and the "impure i-stems" (a lot more) which only have -ium in gen.pl., but that's about it.
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