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Tags loose change , part 4 , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 14th August 2006, 02:51 PM   #1681
Darth Rotor
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
If such is the case then it should be easy for the truthers to find a structural engineer to back up thier claims. Five years later, however, we're all still waiting.

There isn't a huge amount of difference between transplant surgeons and neurosurgeons either. No sane hospital director will allow a guy who swaps livers near a patients head with a bonesaw and that is when one life is at stake.

Here we have thousands of lives hanging in the balance. Someday, another hi-rise tower will catch fire. It's inevitable. It might not happen from terrorism, it could just be a knocked over paint thinner can that catches fire. No false flags, no religious fascists, no agenda of any kind. Just a straight up run-of-the-mill, could-happen-anywhere-to-anyone accident.

I'm sure that if Steven Jones and Judy "Scholars for Tooth" Wood are on the scene that they'll tell the fire chief "I hate George Bush, therefore the building is safe to send firefighters into."

I don't go to gynecologists to get my eyes checked. I wouldn't go to a proctologist to have my extra uvula removed. For my money, when I suspect that a building may collapse, I wanna hear it from a STRUCTURAL engineer.
I understand, and given the amount of misinformation out there, I don't really blame you for the added level of specialization you'd rather hear it from. Your dissing of ME's, however, smells of "the insecurity of the uninformed." In your defense, you'd rather have "the best answer" rather than "a good answer."

DR
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:17 PM   #1682
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A request to people who post links to the LC forum. Could you also quote a snippet of the post in question so folks like me who are IP banned can get the gist of it? Switching IPs is a pain in the butt for me, and often doesn't work anyway. As a result I simply don't try, and I fear I'm missing some comedy gold. Thanks.
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:18 PM   #1683
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http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...howtopic=10387
Let the infighting begin!
And for those who are banned, it is basically a fight between the LCers and the No Planers in regards to William Rodgriguez disassociating himself with reopen911.org.
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:21 PM   #1684
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I understand, and given the amount of misinformation out there, I don't really blame you for the added level of specialization you'd rather hear it from. Your dissing of ME's, however, smells of "the insecurity of the uninformed." In your defense, you'd rather have "the best answer" rather than "a good answer."

DR
The prejudice against ME's seems to come from the fact that a couple of prominent ones have not acquitted themselves well in 9/11 discussions. We have to remember that these people don't represent all ME's.
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:23 PM   #1685
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
The prejudice against ME's seems to come from the fact that a couple of prominent ones have not acquitted themselves well in 9/11 discussions. We have to remember that these people don't represent all ME's.
OK, I'll buy that whole guilt by association bit, I do seem to recall one CT sort claiming to be an ME student, but I guess there are professional ME's who are playing along? For Shame.

DR
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:27 PM   #1686
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Originally Posted by mrfreeze View Post
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...howtopic=10387
Let the infighting begin!
And for those who are banned, it is basically a fight between the LCers and the No Planers in regards to William Rodgriguez disassociating himself with reopen911.org.
Thanks for the summary. And let's remember that when it comes to flights 77 and 93, the LCers ARE no-planers.
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:32 PM   #1687
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
OK, I'll buy that whole guilt by association bit, I do seem to recall one CT sort claiming to be an ME student, but I guess there are professional ME's who are playing along? For Shame.

DR
Yes. Two that come to mind are Judy Wood, whose six-year coma may have severely affected her engineering knowledge, and Gordon Ross, whose math looks impressive to someone like me who counts with his fingers and toes, but apparently does not impress more knowledgeable folk.

From Judy Wood's presentation about how the towers should have toppled like trees.
ETA: This is NOT a parody. It is real-world.

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Old 14th August 2006, 03:32 PM   #1688
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Doing the do -over again

Doooh!


http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/

Gee! I wonder if Google is checking to see if he is helping himself to material he doesn't own?

Want stock footage ? Help yourself, after all as the Executive Producers says, they are :

"burning 10,000 DVDs to go to Ground zero with TO EDUCATE."

Psst - Korey, its a big hole still, 10,000 copies won't fill much of it. . .

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Old 14th August 2006, 03:36 PM   #1689
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
From Judy Wood's presentation about how the towers should have toppled like trees.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...276fdc1dff.jpg
You got to be kidding me!
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:39 PM   #1690
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A neat post from the above mentioned spat over on LC:

Quote:
Sun Zoo aka Rob aka Robert aka OmegaPoint aka HeadHunter,

You recently voiced the concern that discussing the use of VIDEO FAKERY on 9/11 "makes us all look like kooks". I asked if this applied to you and ALL of your various personae, but got no answer. Let me, then, reassure you - you look like five kooks, AT THE LEAST!

IOK
"makes us all look like kooks". So funny. And what is this thing they all seem to have about one person assuming multiple identities?.
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:44 PM   #1691
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
From Judy Wood's presentation about how the towers should have toppled like trees.
To be honest with you, my gut instinct would, with where the structure was originally weakened by the imnpact, have been to predict a failure off center with the resultant tipping, like topping a tree.

The problem is, unlike a tree, which is a fairly homogenous material, the WTC was, internally, mostly air, or a honey combe construction. Unlike a tree, whose strength is not it its bark, its outer lattice gives the building the majority of its strength. This means that its failure mode would not be predicted as being like a tree, but rather where it is at its weakest, which would be (I think) somewhere other than the outer lattice; somewhere inside the structure.

Since none of us were able to take straing guage readings inside the floors that were damaged by the impact, and the subsequent fire, it is hard to determine where the initial catastrophic failure occurred. As analogy the tree is a good picture, but as a structue, I don't think it emulates the box of girders very well. Trees are stronger form the inside out, and are also irregular and grainy, fiberous building materials as compared to steel.

Another point is my lack of understanding of how good a thermal insulator concrete is. If rebar was woven in and among the concrete, but the concrete didn't insulate the rebar that well, the thinner rebar would, weaken due to thermal loads (due to significantly smaller cross section) before the thicker I Beams and T Beams in the girders -- analogy could be 'what burns first and fastest, a thin stick or a thick log' -- causing the floors to sag and droop for three or four floors before those girders began to lose strength from thermal fatigue. That would account for a pull in a lateral direction against the outer girders, which is a lateral load not a compression load, and which stresses the girders like a cantilever (diving board) in their weakest load bearing axis.

That amount of shift in the floor's load bearing capacity, and strength in the form of rigid members supporting the outer lattice would account for an inward sag, sag now changes the weight of the upper flors into a cantilver load, not a compression load, and the vertical members fail like straws being stood on by a grown man. The first failure's impact load begins the subsequent cascading failure due to dynamic, not static, loading.

Still can't get the NIST report, DNS server failure.

It is a CT plot, a DOS attack by LC! Damned conspirators!

DR
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:45 PM   #1692
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
You got to be kidding me!
Pardalis to ATC (Airhead Traffic Control): "Is this real-world or exercise?"

ATC: "This is not a drill. We need somebody up there to, ah, do something about her."

Pardalis: "I'll scramble some eggs. You're on your own."
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:50 PM   #1693
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
You got to be kidding me!
We wish we were kidding. I have done 3-4 posts on this over at SLC. Jim Fetzer just eats this stuff up. It is quite hilarious. EXCELLENT!!
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Old 14th August 2006, 03:55 PM   #1694
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Wow. This post just sums up the entire attitude of some of the people following this movement
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=6699638

Quote:
Even if....The more people attack the government the better it is in my opinion. More attacks mean more attention. That's all we need right now. ATTENTION. Details can only be investigated by a commission.
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Old 14th August 2006, 04:25 PM   #1695
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Ok.... it's been about a month now, since I smacked a pal of mine, out of the Dark Side! Since that time, I have asked every person, I have come in contact with, couple of thousand atleast, friends and strangers. I have yet to find one person! Not one, that buys it and, few have even heard of it. It is non existant for the most part.. Estimate heard of, less than 10%, amount buy it O%! Have any of you others found many? I know you heroes that go to GZ find them. I know if I find the nest I will find some eggs. But, are there any outside of their insular echo chambers? I am dying to find one face to face, this typing ain't my forte! Just curious!

DT

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Old 14th August 2006, 04:39 PM   #1696
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I noticed a funny thing. Lately, I have had a few "Truthers" tell me that "heresay" (which is what they call eyewitness testimony) is not good evidence. Now while I agree that in a case where one side says this happened, and another side says it didn't, neither testimony carries much weight, multiple eyewitness testimony to a common event, in my opnion, carries weight. that said, if the LC "Truthers" want to say that eye witness testimony is little in terms of evidence that is fine...but then...
Either you or they have the wrong impression of what hearsay is. Suppose I witness a crime and tell you what happened. Your testimony would be inadmissable in a court of law as hearsay. There are some exceptions to the rule; for example, if someone confesses a crime to you, you can then testify as to the confession. Here's a pretty good explanation of the hearsay rule.

What you are describing is called "he said, she said". There are other reasons why eyewitness testimony is sometimes considered unreliable, especially in sudden, very brief incidents.
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:07 PM   #1697
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Ok.... it's been about a month now, since I smacked a pal of mine, out of the Dark Side! Since that time, I have asked every person, I have come in contact with, couple of thousand atleast, friends and strangers. I have yet to find one person! Not one, that buys it and, few have even heard of it. It is non existant for the most part.. Estimate heard of, less than 10%, amount buy it O%! Have any of you others found many? I know you heroes that go to GZ find them. I know if I find the nest I will find some eggs. But, are there any outside of their insular echo chambers? I am dying to find one face to face, this typing ain't my forte! Just curious!

DT
I wasn't aware of these theories until I joined this forum in March. None of my friends have ever heard of them (most are a bit older than the LC crowd), and of the thousands of people I have given tours to at Ground Zero, no one has ever asked me a conspiracy-related question.
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:08 PM   #1698
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I wasn't aware of these theories until I joined this forum in March. None of my friends have ever heard of them (most are a bit older than the LC crowd), and of the thousands of people I have given tours to at Ground Zero, no one has ever asked me a conspiracy-related question.
It's all delphi_ote's fault. Blame HIM!
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:22 PM   #1699
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
It's all delphi_ote's fault. Blame HIM!
I do! I've been talking to The Law Firm of Johnny Cochrane about this.
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:23 PM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I do! I've been talking to The Law Firm of Johnny Cochrane about this.
If the chemtrails don't fit, you must acquit?
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:26 PM   #1701
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
It's all delphi_ote's fault. Blame HIM!
It's Lisa's fault.
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:30 PM   #1702
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I wasn't aware of these theories until I joined this forum in March. None of my friends have ever heard of them (most are a bit older than the LC crowd), and of the thousands of people I have given tours to at Ground Zero, no one has ever asked me a conspiracy-related question.
I live in a small college town in California. It's lousy with 9/11 CTers.
I guess it all depends on where you live, and who you know.

I find that they like to hang out in coffee shops...
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:35 PM   #1703
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Hey Gravy, you know where I can nab official information on the war games, such as how many of them were being run and so forth?
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:37 PM   #1704
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Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade View Post
I live in a small college town in California. It's lousy with 9/11 CTers.
I guess it all depends on where you live, and who you know.

I find that they like to hang out in coffee shops...
I live in Venice, doesn't get much more eclectic, my friends equally so.
I don't do coffee, will look into that , however!

DT
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:38 PM   #1705
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Hey Gravy, you know where I can nab official information on the war games, such as how many of them were being run and so forth?
Vanity Fair?

DT
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:49 PM   #1706
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I was born in 1952 and ya know, they've been making chemtrails over Dayton ever since I was born. Now I understand why I don't see the Troof.

Yep, it's chemtrails. They've been after me the whole time.

And obviously, the chem has got to me.

FREE SKINNY!!!!!!
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:55 PM   #1707
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I do! I've been talking to The Law Firm of Johnny Cochrane about this.
If you've been talking to Johnny about this you can qualify for the $1 million...
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:00 PM   #1708
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More Fun Facts with Dylan Avery

Dylan steps in to clear up a forum poster's confusion about whether a set of WTC7 pictures shows the south side or the west side (the picture shows the southwest side, the west shown clearly, the south obscured by smoke):
Originally Posted by Dylan Avery
it's the southeast side.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=6702007
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:02 PM   #1709
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For people who are IP banned:

http://unipeak.net

It allows you to read the board anytime you like
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:02 PM   #1710
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Hey Gravy, you know where I can nab official information on the war games, such as how many of them were being run and so forth?
That is a real good question there. Not sure the information is something that they will tell you but I bet you could at least ask.

Northeast Air Defense Sector Public Affairs
1 (315)334-6536 DSN: 587-6536
pa@neads.ang.af.mil

EDIT: It might help better if I gave you the right region. Sorry.

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Old 14th August 2006, 06:06 PM   #1711
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Originally Posted by sleahead View Post
And what is this thing they all seem to have about one person assuming multiple identities?.
I've noticed that elsewhere (i.e. indymedia). I think it stems from three factors:

1) A pre-existing tendency to believe in the existence of conspiracies.

2) An inability to accept that their view might not be as popular as they believe.

3) A sense of self-importance.

It all adds up to a belief that their work is so important, that there just has to be a psy-ops campaign against them. It would be heartbreaking for them to realise that they are just seen as cranks by the small minority of people who are actually aware of them.
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:16 PM   #1712
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Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade View Post
I live in a small college town in California. It's lousy with 9/11 CTers.
I guess it all depends on where you live, and who you know.

I find that they like to hang out in coffee shops...
I work at a large college and live in a small College town, in CA and there does not seem to be much CT awareness around. Although the Town I work in has more woo per square foot than anywhere else on the globe.
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:18 PM   #1713
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Originally Posted by sleahead View Post
A neat post from the above mentioned spat over on LC:



"makes us all look like kooks". So funny. And what is this thing they all seem to have about one person assuming multiple identities?.
I guess it's Ok then to have 4 sock puppets running over there.
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:33 PM   #1714
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I wasn't aware of these theories until I joined this forum in March. None of my friends have ever heard of them (most are a bit older than the LC crowd), and of the thousands of people I have given tours to at Ground Zero, no one has ever asked me a conspiracy-related question.
I had heard of LIHOP and MIHOP and knew what they were as long ago as 2003, but I had no idea of the details. I certainly remember the controversy over Cynthia McKinney's remarks, and that was in 2002. I had heard of the Meyssan (sp?) book, and like many I thought it was just another example of America-bashing from France, but so ridiculous that I could not imagine anybody with better than a room temperature IQ believing it.

My suspicion is that the usual response to speculation about government involvement in 9-11 has been what that kid "Live Free or Die Tryin'" over at the LC forum experienced. When he talked about it with his dad, the old man went a little psycho on the kid, waving a boxcutter under his throat.

That stage of raw anger is probably coming to an end; the next stage is potentially dangerous. But I suspect it will become like the Kennedy Assassination: something that a lot of people agree is fishy but aren't particularly interested in poking into it further.

For a lot of these Deniers it's all about Bush, and once he's gone it won't have the same urgency. There was a lot of the same sort of speculation in the early 1970s that Nixon was somehow involved in the Kennedy assassination and that this was how we'd finally get rid of him. But interest in that particular theory dried up pretty quickly after Watergate.
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Old 14th August 2006, 06:54 PM   #1715
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I totally agree. I do feel if the republicans maintain the whitehouse (unlikely) that there will still be CT momentum, but if a democrat gets in, along with troop pullout in Iraq, the Troof movement will fade into oblivion, and I'll get some of my time back...lol
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Old 14th August 2006, 07:00 PM   #1716
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I understand, and given the amount of misinformation out there, I don't really blame you for the added level of specialization you'd rather hear it from. Your dissing of ME's, however, smells of "the insecurity of the uninformed." In your defense, you'd rather have "the best answer" rather than "a good answer."

DR
I personally won't accept the word of a mechanical engineer on structural issues, nor do I think mechanical engineers are qualified to make engineering statements about structural causes of the collapse. I do think they are more qualified to handle effects of fire on steel (but how that weaking affects force distribution and building structural integrity should then be shifted to a structural engineer), the fuel distributions (fluid dynamics not high on structural engineers studies) and information about the airplanes.

I do think they have a body of knowledge that allows them to analyze the structural issues and present more useful information than other observers, but their knowledge is not as extensive, nor their experience as appropriate to the requirements of this type of analysis as a structural engineer.

There is a good reason Mechanical Engineers aren't allowed to seal a building's structural drawings. Just as a structural engineer isn't allowed to seal the HVAC drawings for a building, or design engines.
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Old 14th August 2006, 07:02 PM   #1717
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post


That stage of raw anger is probably coming to an end; the next stage is potentially dangerous

I can see the futher than.. sect of the"movement" going postal! Ala, "Weather Underground", or their modern day brothers, "The Eco- Terrorists" ! That does give me chills! They had best not come knocking on my door!

DT
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Old 14th August 2006, 07:09 PM   #1718
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Would those of us anti-CTs who don't post here that much but lurk a lot, such as myself, be of any use at GZ on the special Saturday morning jaunts? I've thought about taking one of those el cheapo Chinatown buses up from DC to see what's going on there, but probably I would want to plan with Gravy and Abby ahead of time.
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Old 14th August 2006, 07:11 PM   #1719
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Dylan steps in to clear up a forum poster's confusion about whether a set of WTC7 pictures shows the south side or the west side (the picture shows the southwest side, the west shown clearly, the south obscured by smoke):


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...post&p=6702007
The fact checkers' strike in Oneonta enters it's second year!

That's going on the blog, thanks for the catch!
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Old 14th August 2006, 07:13 PM   #1720
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
I can see the futher than.. sect of the"movement" going postal! Ala, "Weather Underground", or their modern day brothers, "The Eco- Terrorists" ! That does give me chills! They had best not come knocking on my door!

DT
I would not be surprised to see them start to buddy up with the Islamic extremists, seems like a perfect match.
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