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17th December 2020, 11:34 PM | #2521 |
Philosopher
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17th December 2020, 11:45 PM | #2522 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't apply an anthropomorphic standard to god. I apply an anthropomorphic standard to the value of humanity. It seems reasonable to do so and unreasonable to presume that a god that does not, whether or not it exists, would be relevant to us.
A god that is truly amoral would not be in the business of punishing sin or promoting the good of anything, nor would it care whether or not we worshiped it. Any evidence for a truly amoral god would have to come from some source other than its behavior, which would, I suspect, be indistinguishable from chance. No such evidence seems to be forthcoming. Suspect a worn out piston in the clutch master cylinder. Piston seals here are designed to expand when pushed, and will, in their early failure state do so intermittently as the difference between a cup expanding enough to seal and not quite enough is tiny but its result is drastic. Fluid will leak past but returns to the reservoir so level stays up. May work better if you stab the pedal than if you use it slowly. The behavior of such devicdes is mysterious but not magical! |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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17th December 2020, 11:51 PM | #2523 |
Illuminator
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You are quite right that I want to debate an area that I can win on. But it is a critical question. One that has been used by atheists in the past. Scientist have taken over the philosophers role in using their intellect to explain the universe. A major part of explaining the Universe is trying to logically explain the origin. No matter what point of view is held, everyone accepts the principle of a Prime Cause. That which has no prior cause. In recent decades, a number of atheistic scientists have stated that the universe has always existed as we currently know it. Then came the Big Bang, which was the theory of a Belgian priest named Georges Lemaître who first suggested the big bang theory in the 1920s, when he theorized that the universe began from a single primordial atom. This smacked of creationism and was at first opposed. Now some scientists are using mathematics to suggest a multiverse that always existed. Back to the concept of the physical universe and the laws of physics being the Prime Cause. But it does not explain that "dumb matter/energy" has the attributes to form both life and intelligence. Why did the evolution of planets not stop and lifeless balls of matter? Spectacular, but with no-one to observe it. When atheists first used the "always existed" and no underlying turtles as an argument against the existence of God they were happy to do so. Now that they have a problem with that explanation they want to avoid it. When I watch Dawkins and others debate the existence of God they have a deflection that they use to change the subject when they get to these sticky points. We need a panel of judges to rule on who is winning the debate on this critical point. I want logic and not an unsupported opinion. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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18th December 2020, 12:05 AM | #2524 |
Schrödinger's cat
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And yet you didn't object when I compiled it. You just made insulting comments like this one when it proved that your actual hit rate was much lower than your confirmation bias had led you to believe, still without offering any valid criticisms of the list.
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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18th December 2020, 12:06 AM | #2525 |
Illuminator
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Both good answers.
Please do not confuse the Infinite Intelligence, who is amoral, with God who was created to do as much good as he is able to give the rules that the Infinite Intelligence has set. The Infinite Intelligence wishes to be entertained by a battle between good and evil. Death and suffering are human conditions. They are illusions because the Universe is a dream in the Mind of the Infinite Intelligence. A good father sometimes has to punish his children. A good society has to punish the wrong-doers. A war against an invading enemy means sending young men to die, sometimes needlessly. Your explanation for the clutch not working is probably correct. Having had a few second hand cars with hydraulic problems it is the most reasonable explanation and I will be replacing the seals. It is also possible that there was some oil on the clutch plate which became sticky and would not release. I did try to "pump" the clutch a bit, and also do a high rev slip-burn but they did not work. It is possible that the change in air temperature from night cold to day warm had an effect. Either way, I need to drive the pickup around every day for a few days before fixing it to see if it happens again. Now the explanation of the timing of this serendipitous event. Just luck once more? And why am I so lucky? The laws of probability that some of are very lucky and other are very unlucky? Thanks for a reasoned contribution. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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18th December 2020, 02:08 AM | #2526 |
Schrödinger's cat
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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18th December 2020, 03:24 AM | #2527 |
Illuminator
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Coincidentally... That word again:
I just watched the beginning of a Sophie & Co RT show about the the Prime Cause. Here is one reference I looked up. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...hh/Davies.html ..."All science proceeds on the assumption that nature is ordered in a rational and intelligible way. You couldn't be a scientist if you thought the universe was a meaningless jumble of odds and ends haphazardly juxtaposed." "Davies then observed that scientists take the orderly laws of physics 'on faith' and that those laws 'all are expressed as tidy mathematical relationships.'" Davies then asked "But where do these laws come from? And why do they have the form that they do?" Davies said that after this his email was "overflowing with vitriol". ..."If nature is so 'clever' as to exploit mechanisms that amaze us with their ingenuity, is that not persuasive evidence for the existence of intelligent design behind the universe? If the world's finest minds can unravel only with difficulty the deeper workings of nature, how could it be supposed that those workings are merely a mindless accident, a product of blind chance?" p235-236. "If physics is the product of design, the universe must have a purpose, and the evidence of modern physics suggests strongly that the purpose includes us." Stephen Hawking: "The general multiverse explanation is simply naive deism dressed up in scientific language. Both appear to be an infinite unknown, invisible and unknowable system. Both require an infinite amount of information to be discarded just to explain the (finite) universe we live in." Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_God The Mind of God is a 1992 non-fiction book by Paul Davies. Subtitled The Scientific Basis for a Rational World, it is a whirlwind tour and explanation of theories, both physical and metaphysical, regarding ultimate causes. Its title comes from a quotation from Stephen Hawking: "If we do discover a theory of everything...it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would truly know the mind of God." |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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18th December 2020, 03:28 AM | #2528 |
Illuminator
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You are quite right. There are some few exceptions to my statement. There are deniers to every hypothesis and every generally accepted fact. You are evidently one. Do I have to add this disclaimer to every post I make? I will add it to my signature. See my previous post about Paul Davies. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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18th December 2020, 03:37 AM | #2529 |
Illuminator
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The odds of Biden dying in the first year based solely on his age appear to be 20:1. In the first month, it is possibly 12 times this, so 240:1. Those are long odds. But insurance companies want a full medical history as well as a current medical. How fit and well is Biden. He may just stumble and fall off the stage.
I do not wish it on him so I have to wish that I am wrong. I think it would be more interesting to have him alive to answer questions about his dealings involving his son Hunter. https://www.chicagotribune.com/opini...hwe-story.html |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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18th December 2020, 03:38 AM | #2530 |
Philosopher
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No.
You have no facts about god. It is belief only. A fantasy. Children wake up to the fantasy of Santa Claus. And that’s what all religion basically is, childish fantasy. And just like belief in Santa, if you do good you get presents. With religion, if you do good you get heaven. Well, the promise anyway. Heaven and hell are even more childish beliefs - and a con. At least stocking fillers at Xmas are real. |
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Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite |
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18th December 2020, 04:12 AM | #2531 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Nobody does. Not you. Not anyone. How do I know that? Because neither you nor anyone else has ponied up with any such evidence. Never.
Ah. The old and tired "personal experience" excuse. Not buying that. Is slavery moral? Or not? Are women property? Is genocide moral? Yay. The god of the gaps appears inevitably. This statement is a lie because you clearly because yo think that YOU can explain the origin of the universe. Show me the evidence for a god, any god, and if it were valid, I would believe in that god. You cannot. The final solution, right? Baloney. More baloney. You know most jews? Nope. It isn't just nasty, it is also disgusting. And of you go into your death filled fantasy land. |
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18th December 2020, 04:40 AM | #2532 |
Schrödinger's cat
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The idea of a prime cause is not a generally accepted fact. It's an argument (the cosmological argument) which may or may not be correct. The biggest objection to it is that it's self contradictory, in that it violates the assumption (everything has a cause) on which it's based. If you're going to allow a single exception to that assumption (everything except the prime cause has a cause) then why not just make the existence of the universe the exception? It's more parsimonious.
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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18th December 2020, 07:19 AM | #2533 |
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Speaking of anthropomorphising god...
Why does it wish that? How do you know?
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For example; You lose a court case that you think you should have won, but are relieved of paying costs. You call that good luck, I call it bad luck. To you, having lost the case it's good luck that you didn't have a massive bill for costs. To me, if you definitely think you should have won the case, then it's bad luck that you lost. Luck is often subjective. |
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18th December 2020, 07:50 AM | #2534 |
Penultimate Amazing
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18th December 2020, 07:54 AM | #2535 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Irrelevant. I can point out when you get mired in a topic beyond your capacity to understand and respond, and try to bring up other topics as a distraction. The rules of polite debate transcend this forum.
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18th December 2020, 08:02 AM | #2536 |
Penultimate Amazing
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All of this is made up. You have no facts to demonstrate that any of this is true.
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You have claimed abilities that you say transcend those of ordinary humans. Yet you become very defensive, to the point of insult, when anyone suggests that we test those in a way where you cannot manipulate the outcome or collect the observation selectively. This suggests you intend to deceive people (or perhaps just yourself) into believing those claims are real. |
18th December 2020, 08:06 AM | #2537 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The existence of a prime cause is not a generally accepted fact among all humans. It's not even a generally accepted fact among the philosophers who posit such possibilities. Your argument over the past few days hasn't risen above conjuring the existence of something you can call a supreme being out of nothing but rhetorical handwaving and vigorous question-begging.
You have nothing that anyone but you would recognize as evidence for your belief. Stop trying to make that someone else's fault. |
18th December 2020, 08:13 AM | #2538 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, Davies is one of a handful of former physicists who have tried their hand at philosophy and generally end up abusing both in the process. For some reason, the public thinks physicists have greater insight as a matter of course into the question of origins as it vexes the human condition and often end up making a quick buck by writing popular books on the subject -- usually when their scientific careers start to tank. Scientists don't take the laws of nature on faith. They take the laws of nature on observation. And as badly as you want that to mean there must be some inteligent design behind it, there's no reason to suppose any such thing.
No, Mr Davies' opinions are not generally representative of scientific knowledge, understanding, or practice. |
18th December 2020, 08:35 AM | #2539 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, you keep recounting stories that involve your personal inability or unwillingness to discover evidence for a prosaic cause for things you observe. Then you fill that gap by declaring -- with a similar lack of evidence -- that some god must be the cause of it. It's the default, not the result of a careful evaluation of evidence. Someone who doesn't already believe in a god will simply not apply the same default. Or any default, as most skeptics are content to leave something unexplained where evidence is not forthcoming.
Further, we have noted that you frequently overstate your expertise and knowledge. The resort to the default is more credible when one believes one has methodically and skillfully exhausted all alternatives. Your ability to do that in any given case is hampered by that delusion. That is, your ability to comprehend what might be a natural cause is undermined by your ignorance of nature. Finally, we have noted that even when it would be easy to test whether a prosaic cause is in play, you are reluctant to do so. This suggests your predilection for a supernatural cause, in that you wish to leave the question unanswered so that you can persist in a belief in the supernatural and use your anecdotes as a circular justification. So when you recount all these various anecdotes, it seems that you wish us to be similarly disinterested in the investigation so that we will give them the same evidentiary weight that you do. That is simply not going to happen.
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But in general it means that no one will accept your anecdotes as proof of anything. You're the one who destroyed your credibility. Therefore it's no one's fault but yours that your stories prove nothing to anyone else. |
18th December 2020, 11:45 AM | #2540 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Except that the article conflates two dissimilar concepts. And since you don't know what you're talking about, you didn't pick up on it. The military use of pulsed microwave energy to fry the electronics of sophisticated enemy equipment and munitions has nothing to do with what is suspected to have occurred in Havana. This is what happens when you get your "science" from journalists and pretend this makes you an expert.
You lost your court case because you don't understand radio frequency energy, not because your legal opponents were invariably evil and the judges were corrupt. As Pixel42 keeps pointing out, all your woes come down to evidence. You need it if you want to convince anyone else of anything. But you don't have any of it. And it does you no good to whine that whatever you want to substitute for evidence on any given day doesn't convince other people. Your "expert" opinion certainly doesn't get the job done. |
18th December 2020, 02:45 PM | #2541 |
Watching . . . always watching.
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Q: Is the prophetic power of the Magic 8-Ball as good as that of Tarot cards?
Magic 8-Ball replies: Yes. Definitive and needs no interpretation. |
18th December 2020, 04:50 PM | #2542 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
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As near as I can tell, PS puts "dumb" in front of "matter/energy" as a sort of special-pleading modifier that lets him escape the implications of emergent properties- if matter is dumb, it can't, by definition, result in any combination that has intelligence, because it's dumb, and that's all there is to it, that assigned quality is all the limit he needs. It's the same tactic he uses with his "Infinite Intelligence"- his idea that intelligence needs an intelligence to beget it doesn't apply to the Infinite Intelligence simply by virtue of sticking "Infinite" in front of "Intelligence." It isn't turtles all the way down if he can just define one of them as special by a quality that is necessary to his hypothesis, but not otherwise justified.
You also gotta love a "hypothesis" that can't be falsified- every single thing that happens can be seen as evidence that it's right, and, AFAICT, there is nothing that could be evidence that it's wrong. Lost a court case he thinks he should have won, but didn't have to pay as much in fees? Losing didn't matter, it's how much he didn't lose by- there's no "either/or" metric, everything is grist for the mill. |
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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18th December 2020, 05:03 PM | #2543 |
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Perhaps PS’s matter is a misspelling of mater.
It’s probably hereditary. |
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Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite |
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19th December 2020, 02:46 AM | #2544 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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19th December 2020, 02:56 AM | #2545 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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19th December 2020, 03:43 AM | #2546 |
Schrödinger's cat
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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19th December 2020, 08:28 AM | #2547 |
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19th December 2020, 10:28 AM | #2548 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Good. Unlike your other prophecies that I'm aware of, this one doesn't align with probabilities / prevailing wisdom.
I also have a prediction: When Biden is inaugurated, you'll try to weasel out by pointing back at the hedges you planted. As for your claim that you don't lie and the counter claims that followed -- I was tempted to post in your defense, based on delusionality <> lying. But then I remembered... You were crowing about your prediction that Trump would win the nomination in 2016. I pointed out that your prediction came at a time when he was the runaway favorite. And I listed the many primaries he had won at that point. You blithely denied that unambiguous reality. Another example of you crowing over BS predictions, and denying reality when presented with non ambiguous debunking, can be seen here. Fine, I'm willing to chalk those up to poor memory and/or delusion. But when you're presented with blatant, non-ambiguous facts that expose the predictions as absurdities, you deny reality. At that point, you're flat out lying. |
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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19th December 2020, 01:16 PM | #2549 |
Illuminator
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I watch Sabine Hossenfelder on youtube as she's kind of hot and I learn things.
She talked about 5G recently and when I watched it I thought it might interest you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBsP...neHossenfelder there seems to be a wee bit of an open question on over time. |
19th December 2020, 04:21 PM | #2550 |
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Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite |
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20th December 2020, 07:20 AM | #2551 |
Illuminator
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A real mystery? Especially since no-one is prepared to compare cell phone radiation levels and exposure, like I did. My theory holds, but the cell industry will only let it be told by "tin-hatter" like me. As I predicted, it will take years for the link to be made. Only when it becomes way too obvious.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55333126 "It's a real scientific mystery," said Dr Mutevedzi. "I think it's a real possible scientific theory that [because] these crowded areas have always been prone to disease and had high infection rates so maybe that has somehow prevented them from having severe Covid-19 or from actually being infected with Covid." She played down the impact of government restrictions, saying that, in practice, there had been "no lockdown" in much of Soweto since people had often struggled to adhere to the rules. "The mortality is lower here. Something has to explain it. Many people live in quite crowded settings and one theory is that pre-existing antibodies to other coronaviruses are cross-reacting," said Prof Helen Rees, a prominent vaccine expert at Wits University. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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20th December 2020, 07:37 AM | #2552 |
Illuminator
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Ouch. God is really cracking down. Xmas in Europe being locked down due to a new variant that is ultra-infectious.
We are now seeing that strain here. We have family and friends that have just welcomed their children and grandchildren from the UK and Germany. They are quite scared of this virus, and at a birthday party for one set of friends at a restaurant everyone started out with masks but by the end no-one had mask. I have heard of more Covid cases. All office workers. In the WiFi areas. My wife's sister has now declined the Xmas eve traditional dinner. She says that the UK visitors to some of the family worry her. She has asthma. She asked how much my CPAP and Oxygen machines cost because she was thinking of buying them for herself. We said we would lend her if she needed them. Remember the cards said that there would be a wave, then a lull and then another wave. I thought that the second wave would be much more deadly and only come after the first wave was almost eliminated. So I am not sure that this "second wave" is the one predicted by the Tarot cards. Maybe just confirmation that we will see a really disastrous one next year after the vaccinations. I read up how these vaccines work. RNA and DNA manipulation. Hmm. New techniques with untried long-term effects. I will be refusing any vaccine. Instead of a "disabled" infected cell, they make a body cell develop spike proteins. The body cell then gets killed. Can this lead to a run-away immune reaction? Or other unforeseen effects? After all, science says it does not really know how the killer T-cells work. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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20th December 2020, 08:05 AM | #2553 |
Illuminator
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Nice-looking yes. Kinda nasal and dead-pan. My take. I had to force myself to listen to the standard Telco propaganda. Stuff for six-year olds. Not even an indirect mention of the indirect effects. All she dealt with were the ionization and heating. Not one scientific opponent of cellular emfs is concerned with these effects. Basically - so what? We know about them. They are not a problem. Which is why nearly all Telco-friendly studies involve these two areas so that they do not observe harm. How about the pulsed effect on the ion channels of living cells? The disturbance causes an unbalance of ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species), and this CAN cause DNA damage. But even without DNA damage the interference with the inter-cellular signalling mechanisms causes many problems in a functional living organism. These problems then manifest as real physical medical problems. A very wide range of seemingly unrelated problems. But you can take the Blue Pill (the psychological propagandist Kool-Aid) if it reassures you and helps you sleep at night. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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20th December 2020, 08:26 AM | #2554 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Demonstrate that any god is involved.
You cannot. Fail. How stupid. Those are super spreaders. Through ignorance, they are spreading the disease. What fools. You still have not learned that correlation<>causation. Unsurprising. How dare she protect her health. Most inconsiderate, right? The second wave was predicted by science, not stupid tarot cards, and it is exacerbated by the morons who refuse to observe appropriate precautions. No. Just no. That is a misunderstanding on many levels. Then you will be intentionally keeping the virus going. That is disgusting. That is not how vaccines work. This level of ignorance is why the virus will be prolonged. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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20th December 2020, 11:27 AM | #2555 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Except that you can't demonstrate to any standard of proof that you know what you're talking about.
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20th December 2020, 11:32 AM | #2556 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There's no evidence a god is responsible for anything here.
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20th December 2020, 11:39 AM | #2557 |
Penultimate Amazing
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20th December 2020, 12:27 PM | #2558 |
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'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer |
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20th December 2020, 12:33 PM | #2559 |
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Have you told them that they deserve to die, and that you will sit back and watch them?
You must be great company at Christmas..... So offices cause Covid infection? Is it the chairs? The desks? Then you are disobeying your god. Let them die, It's what he wants, right? No, I don't remember that. Can you quote the post where you said that? I'll leave this to the scientists. However, I will note that, if these pesky vaccines stop the pandemic, your god (and by extension, you) are going to look a bit (more) stupid. Are you now switching, as so many other conspiracy theorists are, to a claim that the vaccine will have as-yet-unspecified but definitely lethal side effects? On what are you basing this? |
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'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer |
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22nd December 2020, 08:10 AM | #2560 |
Watching . . . always watching.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 2,378
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I am committed to delivering the prophecies of the Magic 8-Ball exactly as they appear, even though I may not personally agree with them.
I do not consult it every day. One must never irritate the controlling powers of the Magic 8-Ball. But about once a week is okay. Today's question: "Magic 8-Ball, are those who profess belief in the predictive power of tarot cards sincere?" Magic 8-Ball sez: "Reply hazy. Ask again later." |
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