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22nd December 2020, 09:27 AM | #2561 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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22nd December 2020, 09:43 AM | #2562 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
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My tea leaves say they're both wrong.
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22nd December 2020, 09:45 AM | #2563 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
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The problem is your data base is too limited - you need more methods of divination.
Here is a list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_divination' Pick fifty or sixty more and come up with an average. |
22nd December 2020, 03:56 PM | #2564 |
Watching . . . always watching.
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Location: Southeastern USA
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22nd December 2020, 03:59 PM | #2565 |
Philosopher
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Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite |
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22nd December 2020, 05:12 PM | #2566 |
Watching . . . always watching.
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23rd December 2020, 12:51 AM | #2567 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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I have been quite ill lately. The downs among the ups. Seems like a virus on top of my usual pain and fatigue. Likely not Covid. I have been spraying my nose and throat with colloidal silver solution.
Covid has gotten quite real. SA now has its own strain of infectious Covid. Not the UK strain. I listened to a cell phone message from a person whose family now has Covid. Quite sobering. The daughter and son-in-law of a friend of a family member went to dinner with two other couples two weeks ago. Four days later the wife of one couple phoned to say she had tested positive for Covid. Four days after the call the daughter and hr husband got Covid symptoms. They quarantined themselves and tried to isolate from their eight-year old daughter. Did not help and she got it. Four days into the illness the wife called an ambulance at midnight because her husband was so ill. They said the hospital was full and the 2 ICU beds were being reserved for critical patients. They treated them and gave them advice. Nearly two weeks and the husband is very ill. Fever, pain and cannot keep food or liquid down. Struggle to breathe. The wife is quite ill and so is their eight-year old. The next few days will be critical. The son of the woman next door had Covid. Lost his sense of smell and taste for a while. Seems to have recovered. It looks like we will be canceling most plans to go on holiday or meet with friends. And then we will be extra careful. Numbers. 2-4 billion dead in 4 or so years is about 1-2 million dead a day. Hard to imagine. But not impossible. Humans are not prepared. Our Xmas tree is up and my wife's lovely 2 1/2 year old granddaughter helped. Screwed in the base screws. When I was a parent I took life for granted. Now I am amazed at the growth and learning of these little ones. She learns new words and facial expressions daily. Wanted something on the kitchen counter. No problem get the plastic double step to climb up. For those who enjoy the Xmas holidays - best wishes. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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23rd December 2020, 05:10 AM | #2568 |
Philosopher
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'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer |
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23rd December 2020, 06:09 AM | #2569 |
Graduate Poster
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23rd December 2020, 06:46 AM | #2570 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
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Is that a prediction?
You've talked previously about a 60% death rate, but back in June when I suggested a figure of 78m (just 1%) dead in one year's time you wouldn't even commit to that. I've decided to start a new list of your predictions. So far I have: 1. Biden dies before his inauguration on January 20th 2. 78m deaths due to the pandemic by 1st July 2021 3. At least 2 billion deaths due to the pandemic by Dec 31st 2024 Comments? |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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23rd December 2020, 06:55 AM | #2571 |
Lackey
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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23rd December 2020, 10:33 AM | #2572 |
Spectral Challenger
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,602
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There's only one thing I take away from this post, and that is: you are a poor excuse for a human being.
I'll not mention all the other pseudoscience you have alluded to in the past, or comment on the colloidal silver rubbish in the above post, that's not relevant now. What gets me really angry is this: 1. You are freely associating with people outside your own household, when most sensible people in South Africa are in hard lockdown. You post details about a family getting infected and passing it on to their kid, and then you straight up admit that you are associating with your granddaughter who is definitely not living with you. 2. You say you may have to cancel "most of your holiday plans", and then state having to be "extra careful". So, you're still associating with others, and perhaps even travelling to other venues, and this even after admitting you're not feeling well. I'm surprised you even considered going on holiday in the first place. It's people like you who are going to spread this damn virus - in total denial, not getting vaccinated, not locking down. You've said that you are already using oxygen and a CPAP, so obviously you are at higher risk than most people, yet you continue to be lax with precautions. Fine, you may have a death wish, but you obviously don't give a damn about others - are you trying to force your prediction of millions dead? Seriously, you make me sick to my stomach. |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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23rd December 2020, 11:13 AM | #2573 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
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It's been real for the rest of us for a year. But while you're spinning anecdotes and reveling in the statistics of millions of deaths a day, I see no evidence that you yourself are taking it seriously. And that attitude among so many is why this is still a problem for the world.
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23rd December 2020, 03:01 PM | #2574 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
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You have no way to know that, and given your irresponsible super-spreader behaviour, it is quite likely.
Great. Add in some more superstitious nonsense, why not. That will make things better, right? Covid has been real for over a year. Viruses mutate, news at eleven. Since your behaviour makes you a likely vector, when are YOU going to sober up? How irresponsible of them. They only have themselves to blame. You have had over a year to take precautions and you have declined to do so. I see no prospect that you will in the future. Plenty are prepared. We just have to endure the lunatic fringe that refuses to do so and propagates the virus. That is irresponsible. Such activities will spread the virus. Normally, I spend Christmas Day with a large group. Two of those are heart-lung transplantees. Given that I directly interact with 400-500 strangers per week, there is no chance I am going anywhere near them this Christmas. But that consideration would never occur to covid cranks. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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23rd December 2020, 03:57 PM | #2575 |
Philosopher
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Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite |
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23rd December 2020, 06:47 PM | #2576 |
Illuminator
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26th December 2020, 03:05 AM | #2577 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
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I posted this in another thread, and decided to also post it here because it's relevant to the "Prime Cause" discussion above.
Brian Cox did a programme for BBC Radio 3 just before Christmas which consisted of music interspersed with his musings on life, the universe and everything. He's always had a gift for explaining complex ideas understandably and he really outdoes himself here, especially when talking about what the latest cosmological theories and observations imply about whether the universe had a beginning. I believe it's possible to listen to BBC radio shows anywhere in the world. It's here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000qkl5 The timings are: 1.45 - 2.00 Cox: Brief introduction 2.00 - 11.15 Sibelius, Symphony no. 5 in E flat major Op.82 - 3rd Movement 11.15 - 24:40 Cox: What does it mean to live a small, fragile life in an infinite, possibly eternal universe? 24:40 - 31.00 Charles Ives, The Unanswered Question 31:00 - 47:50 Cox: The origin of the universe and complexity, the inflationary multiverse 47:50 - 1.13.00 Gustav Mahler, Symphony No.10 - 1st Movement Note that the 5 photographs to which Cox refers are available on the programme's website. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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29th December 2020, 11:43 AM | #2578 |
Watching . . . always watching.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 2,378
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This week's Magic 8-Ball session:
I brewed a cup of ficus tea (associated with enlightenment), a candle infused with essence of roses (promoting tranquility), sat on a carpet with the Mystic Star of nine points embroidered on it, and with 8-Ball in hand, lit the candle, sipped the tea, spat it back into the cup because it was vile, and asked: "Are tarot cards controlled by paranormal forces?" And lo, the Magic 8-Ball did reply: "My sources say no." Uncanny, though now I think I should have consulted it before buying that ******* tea. |
31st December 2020, 12:39 AM | #2579 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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31st December 2020, 01:13 AM | #2580 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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I made it clear that #1 was not a prediction because it did not have Tarot card verification and nor was there a strong psychic indication. It is a personal musing based on a small fleeting intuition. I am not a machine spewing out predictions (that is, I am not an Eight Ball). Take Muhammad camel's bet. He advised the betting man to increase the time from 5 to 10 years (within 10 years) and increase the bet from 10 camel to 100 camels. Predictions are imprecise. They see a singular event in broad terms. Your technique for dismissing any prediction is to insist on precision. Your technique is almost guaranteed to work. My "prediction" is based on a general message that God will solve many world problems caused by overpopulation with a pandemic. No timing was given. No numbers were given. I have had to infer them. So these are not predictions. They are inferences I am making. I am also inferring the reasoning as to why God gave me the message. It is logical that there was a reason beyond just telling me. And hence the 10 years for me to accept spirit guidance. I accept I may be wrong but I am not a quitter and will need to be proved wrong (not possible as we all know). How many people and how many years? A tough one. Now you take my 2 billion over 4 years as precise and then you average it to a million or so a day every day with immediate effect. (I am not going to do the precise math.) Would you be satisfied with 1 billion over 10 years? God may be, if it achieved his aims of a more spiritual society that has changed its ways to reduce population fairly quickly but definitely reduce consumption and global warming drastically. What is certain (if I am to believe that God gave me a message) is that life as we thought it would be, will not be. Humankind will not go back to the "old ways". A lot of this is not psychic but simple analysis of trends and science. I say that science will lose the battle using vaccines. If not a Covid mutation then another virus. Wars, famine, and existing illnesses will take their toll. Science is "playing God" with some of the DNA/RNA manipulation. I can see how it is supposed to work and it is very clever. BUT, there is the risk of unintended consequences. What if it overstimulates some immune systems, and what if those problems are amplified by cell phone emf? This is all guesswork on my part, but my concerns are not without scientific grounds. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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31st December 2020, 01:15 AM | #2581 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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31st December 2020, 01:32 AM | #2582 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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Under the circumstances, one should make the most of special occasions. Not with commercial consumption but with appreciation for the spiritual side of life. I see the joy in my wife's grandchildren as they play and think Father Xmas visited our house on Xmas eve. Once more the weather defied the scientific predictions and we had an awesome day with hot swimming weather. The family takes precautions but we do have our own "bubble". One is a teacher and her children need looking after and need the stimulation of social interaction in a rationally secured environment. The other is a doctor on the frontline. Her child also needs the backup that Grandparents offer. Personally, I have been to the factory 3 times this month (no others there) and to the hardware store 3 times. Decent mask, wash hands and keep my distance from others. My wife's sister did not attend because she was fearful because of her weak health. SA is not in a Chinese style lock-down where everyone except essential workers are confined to their homes. That train has left the station, never to return. Balance is required, and I see extremists on both sides. If, as I predict, there are large numbers ill and dying, then acute hospitalization is not possible. What is the solution? Why is no-one wanting to discuss this or even prepare for this? I am staying home if I get acutely sick. That way I do not stress the system or put others in harms way. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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31st December 2020, 01:46 AM | #2583 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
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So in summary: No, I'm not going to make any precise predictions based on the information I claim comes directly from God, in order to ensure that nothing that actually transpires could ever be taken as evidence that that claim is not true. This of course also means that nothing that actually transpires could ever be taken as evidence that the claim is true, so everything I say can be dismissed without further consideration.
Thank you for playing, next claimant please. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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31st December 2020, 01:48 AM | #2584 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
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Cox takes just 17 minutes to summarise some of the most complex and mind boggling ideas in cosmology, in words that most people should be able to understand. Are you seriously demanding that I summarise his summary in a couple of sentences? What on earth is the matter with you?
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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31st December 2020, 03:58 AM | #2585 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: St Aines
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Also "programs to entertain the masses"?
It was on Radio 3, a classical music station - not exactly a mass audience. Though it's my radio station of choice for most of the day. |
31st December 2020, 08:51 AM | #2586 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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31st December 2020, 11:36 AM | #2587 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
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I asked you twice at the time to confirm whether this was an actual prediction and you didn't answer. You waited to disavow your "prediction" until it became clear it wasn't going to happen. That's a pretty good indication that you know you're faking it.
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You're not a genius. You're not a prophet. You're not a lawyer. You're not a scientist. You can't provide evidence for a single claim you make, ever. So your task now is to justify why you deserve further attention from thinking people. |
31st December 2020, 12:33 PM | #2588 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
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My question would be- how, specifically, do you tell the difference? And how do you then present it so that other people can see the difference? Because as far as I can see, your "messages from god" are not anything at all that it would take a god to tell anybody, or you in particular to pass on.
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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3rd January 2021, 02:14 AM | #2589 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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For those who scorned my suggestion of colloidal silver spray in the nose and throat try this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7486059/ Sep 2020 Silver nanoparticles (AgNP) have been studied to possess antiviral properties and are presumed to inhibit SARS-CoV-2. Due to the need for an effective agent against SARS-CoV-2, we evaluated the antiviral effect of AgNPs. We evaluated a plethora of AgNPs of different sizes and concentration and observed that particles of diameter around 10 nm were effective in inhibiting extracellular SARS-CoV-2 at concentrations ranging between 1 and 10 ppm while cytotoxic effect was observed at concentrations of 20 ppm and above... The elemental metal, Silver (Ag) has broad spectrum antimicrobial action against various bacteria, fungi and viruses. Due to their versatility, Ag nanoparticles (AgNP) have currently found their way as a microbicide for biological surfaces in various forms such as wound dressings, medical devices, deodorant sprays and fabrics |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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3rd January 2021, 02:24 AM | #2590 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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Good question. I only got one specific message from God. Other information I get by using the Tarot cards (mostly right but must be used with care), or with an unusual event. Then I have to "feel" that the info is correct. There are times I sense that I am not getting correct information. This is particularly true when I get info from a clairvoyant. I have often told them I do not feel they are correct. They keep trying until I feel the info is correct. And it is. When my ex-mother-in-law died in hospital there was an unusual hole in the cloud cover with the sun shining through and the radio played "A Whiter Shade of Pale". That is how I knew the moment of death. Without the unusual cloud event I would not have been sure. It is like my friend betting on the horses using insider info from the stable hands. Betting for a place (1st, 2nd or 3rd). Right enough of the time for him to make money. There are no sure bets in horse racing (the horse could die - lead poisoning in one case) or in predictions. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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3rd January 2021, 05:05 AM | #2591 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
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Remind us: what was that specific message again?
You have yet to provide any examples of this claimed veracity. 'Used with care'- what does that mean, exactly? It sounds to me like an appeal to confirmation bias. Which, as we have seen, can be just about anything, whether unusual or not. Like, say, the sun shining through clouds. Confirmation bias. Pure and simple. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They tell you something you don't agree with. If you don't agree with it it's wrong. So they aren't clairvoyant, then. Then they keep changing the message until you agree with it. Then you think they have actual clairvoyant abilities. Man, are you being played! See how my amazing prediction about your thinking sunshine was an unusual event came true? Magic. (Not 8-ball. I prefer yarrow stalks. I don't even know what a yarrow is, but I'm confident that God speaks through dried plants. Because.) Well, you wouldn't have known apart from asking the doctors, that is. Was your late ex-mother-in-law an especially important person? It seems odd that God would choose to put on such a display for her, when so many other deaths pass without the heavenly fireworks and the accompanying soundtrack. Did you confirm with those present at her passing that this was indeed the exact moment when it happened? Also, are her family and friends OK with your using this private tragedy to advance your arguments on an internet forum? So what's the point of predictions, then? |
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'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer |
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3rd January 2021, 12:12 PM | #2592 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
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Nice try, but no. In horse racing, there is rarely lingering doubt or irreconcilable debate over which horse won. Yes, there are "photo finishes" to help decide the winner when the race is close, but that is based on objectively obtained information. Yes, there are pre-running and post-running disqualifications, but those according to evidence obtained and measured against rules that were agreed upon before the race. And if you have the proper documentation of your wager, and have fulfilled the contract that governs the wager, the track is legally bound to pay off your winnings. Thus there is a semblance of an objective measurement of a bettor's ability to guess the winner of a horse race at a rate better than chance.
Your "predictions" are entirely different. First, you won't agree to pinning down on what it means to win a race. Then you decide, after the fact, that races your horse lost don't count. And you demand the track pay off wagers you say you made, even when you can't supply the proper documentation. The elaboration of your process and a recitation of the supposed difficulty in accurate prophecy literally do not matter. The only thing that would make you a prophet would be to demonstrate the ability, measured objectively, to predict the future at a rate statistically greater than chance guess. Unless you can do that, no one is obliged to listen to your excuses. Prophecy is exactly to rise above all the elements that make it hard to do, and to actually do it. Betting on the horses doesn't guarantee you'll make money at it. But at least there you konw when success has been achieved. You can't even give us that. |
3rd January 2021, 01:23 PM | #2593 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
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This sounds an awful lot like you saying that your feelings not only determine whether a message was from god (or tarot) or just from "simple analysis of trends and science" (which anyone can do), but also whether the answer you get is correct or not. So not only is there no objective test for the source of the message, there isn't anything more objective than how you "feel" about a message to determine how right it is. Even facts can be shuffled so whatever actually happens can be be made to line up with how you predicted things would. If you're serious about this, I have to agree with CY- you're playing yourself.
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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3rd January 2021, 02:07 PM | #2594 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
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In addition, he wins races betting on the prohibitive favorite and crows about it as if a long shot.
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__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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4th January 2021, 11:59 PM | #2595 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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So much work to do and so much pain. I sleep a lot. I am trying to keep my time on the internet down.
But this one is too interesting to pass. We have an infestation of flies, but I have had difficulty getting to the stores to buy fly traps and fly spray. So I was using up what we had and there was one last can of Mortein inside auto-dispensing spray. Both dispensers are not working (another project), so I am spraying the study (mosquitoes) and the kitchen (flies) by hand. I use about 5 squirts per room. The last little bit of fluid in the can ran out about 5-6 weeks ago, so I expected it to stop spraying a long time ago. But it is like the Ever Ready bunny - it just keep going and sprays a good amount of liquid each day despite there being no liquid in the can for quite a few weeks now. Strange but true. Explanations? Other than the supernatural! |
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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5th January 2021, 12:15 AM | #2596 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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Psychics events to not come to me easily. Most of the time I need some sort of external input, often something I would not ordinarily think of. A clairvoyant is a connection to the spirit world so the chances that they will get some information is good, and often better that the Tarot. Example. A legal matter was bothering me. Something seemed wrong. The clairvoyant suggested a number of things. I reject them. When she said that their was male who was not what he seemed that was undermining my efforts I recognized that she was talking about my ex-wife's brother. Despite his statements that he hated the sister who was opposing us, it turned out later that he hated my ex-wife more, and was trying to get at both at the same time. The information enabled me to be careful and not share my strategy with him. That worked. With regard to the clouds, the event could happen any time. It was however unusual to get a "hole" in the thick cloud cover so that the sun shine brightly down in a glowing pillar. This is the what people do not understand - that omens do not have to be extreme events such as a burning bush. They are events that have "significance" to a person tuned into such events, and able to connect them to something else of importance. Scoff all you like. My life has been one of interest and luck. You call it correlation and I call it causation. Prove me wrong. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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5th January 2021, 12:23 AM | #2597 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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5th January 2021, 12:27 AM | #2598 |
Illuminator
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I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon |
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5th January 2021, 12:48 AM | #2599 |
Graduate Poster
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5th January 2021, 04:58 AM | #2600 |
Philosopher
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Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
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'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer |
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