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Old 10th November 2017, 08:54 PM   #1761
sackett
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Yes, but

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It has great relevance with that secondary naturals can be false. Even though, we feel, we are Buffalo for million trillion years, we can bot become Buffalo.
Could you please paraphrase that?
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:23 PM   #1762
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Could you please paraphrase that?
We can not become Buffalo even then we feel it for million of years. It means, we can not adapt it. By secodary natural, I mean secondary evolving or adaptation.
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:28 AM   #1763
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We can not become Buffalo even then we feel it for million of years. It means, we can not adapt it. By secodary natural, I mean secondary evolving or adaptation.
Could you please paraphrase that?
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:53 AM   #1764
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Could you please paraphrase that?
We can not change the bàsic nature except slight modification by evolutionary process.
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:58 AM   #1765
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It has great relevance with that secondary naturals can be false. Even though, we feel, we are Buffalo for million trillion years, we can bot become Buffalo.
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We can not become Buffalo even then we feel it for million of years. It means, we can not adapt it. By secodary natural, I mean secondary evolving or adaptation.
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We can not change the bàsic nature except slight modification by evolutionary process.

Then why do you think that the truth of other propositions can be determined according to whether a lot of people have believed them for a long time?
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Old 11th November 2017, 07:49 AM   #1766
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Then why do you think that the truth of other propositions can be determined according to whether a lot of people have believed them for a long time?
Depends, whether new or ín continuance to basic nature.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:27 AM   #1767
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Depends, whether new or ín continuance to basic nature.

Let me guess: "in continuance to basic nature" is something to do with an "inharent sense of right and wrong", right?

Buffalo have existed for millions of years. How do you know that none of them have been people?
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:52 AM   #1768
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
How we can say it best when it can still be modified--added or subtracted, even with potential harms?
Suppose you are to travel across a country. You have a map. It is not a perfect map because it is not very detailed, so it only shows greater roads and cities, etc.

It is, however, the best map you have. Is it possible to use it to travel?

Hans
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:38 AM   #1769
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Someone should count how many pages have gone by without even hinting at the original topic of the ethics of keeping food animals.
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:55 PM   #1770
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Someone should count how many pages have gone by without even hinting at the original topic of the ethics of keeping food animals.
Thanks.
I am looking, what can be the human basic diet i.e. of our primatives, If mónkey, apes, was it taking, tree prodúcts? It is noted, prime natural hold more value than secondary matural/evolútion. Domestication and farmings are purposeful secondary àdaptàtións in self interests not primary.
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Old 11th November 2017, 06:09 PM   #1771
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Suppose you are to travel across a country. You have a map. It is not a perfect map because it is not very detailed, so it only shows greater roads and cities, etc.

It is, however, the best map you have. Is it possible to use it to travel?

Hans
Once ,I had very bad experiance by using google map. It suggested shortest route but that road was so ódd, we could reach two hour late and with lot of crowd and jerks. Then we asked ftom a locals, how this road suggested for so big tóurist destínation. He laughed snd asked, why you took this road when a byepass was there before 40 kms. Yes, some more distance but road was very good, you could had reached much early and comfortably.
So the practical approach was to keep on askíng from locals and reach destination better than using map. It is cultural system.
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Old 11th November 2017, 06:32 PM   #1772
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Let me guess: "in continuance to basic nature" is something to do with an "inharent sense of right and wrong", right?

Buffalo have existed for millions of years. How do you know that none of them have been people?
Any inheritance is from basic or secondary, matter. We need to find it from evolution history otherwise from our basic inherited instincts. Like, probably, our prime primitives , living in wild places, appear to be taking plants, trees and other natural veg products but we base secondary natural products which may included meat & other cooked foods.
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Old 11th November 2017, 07:59 PM   #1773
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Thanks.
I am looking, what can be the human basic diet i.e. of our primatives, If mónkey, apes, was it taking, tree prodúcts? It is noted, prime natural hold more value than secondary matural/evolútion. Domestication and farmings are purposeful secondary àdaptàtións in self interests not primary.
Maybe before you stick us all with tree products you should find out what our primitive ancestors actually ate, and what our primitive cousins still eat.

It is true that we're alone in domestication, except for ants. Ooops.

You still have not addressed one of the unfortunate dissonances in your discourse, which is that if a so-called "unnatural" practice has had an influence on our evolutionary process, how can we now be "natural" without it? We would have to devolve on purpose, and that, by itself, is also not "natural."

It is believed, at least by some, that cooking is part of what allowed people to evolve into the people who now exist. If cooking is part of what being human is about, then the choice to abjure cooking is, in some sense, "unnatural," no matter how good an idea it might be.
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:02 PM   #1774
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Maybe before you stick us all with tree products you should find out what our primitive ancestors actually ate, and what our primitive cousins still eat.
I already tried and got it. Another was PETA link, which I quoted previously.

Quote:
The story begins over 55 million years ago, after angiosperm forests spread across the earth during the late Cretaceous (94 million to 64 million years ago). At that time, some small, insect-eating mammal, which may have resembled a tree shrew, climbed into the trees, presumably in search of pollen-distributing insects. But its descendants came to rely substantially on edible plant parts from the canopy, a change that set the stage for the emergence of the primate order.
Natural selection strongly favors traits that enhance the efficiency of foraging. Hence, as plant foods assumed increasing importance over evolutionary time (thousands, indeed millions, of years), selection gradually gave rise to the suite of traits now regarded as characteristic of primates. Most of these traits facilitate movement and foraging in trees. For instance, selection yielded hands well suited for grasping slender branches and manipulating found delicacies.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ution-2006-06/
Quote:
It is true that we're alone in domestication, except for ants. Ooops.
Is it domestication or social living?

Quote:
You still have not addressed one of the unfortunate dissonances in your discourse, which is that if a so-called "unnatural" practice has had an influence on our evolutionary process, how can we now be "natural" without it? We would have to devolve on purpose, and that, by itself, is also not "natural."

It is believed, at least by some, that cooking is part of what allowed people to evolve into the people who now exist. If cooking is part of what being human is about, then the choice to abjure cooking is, in some sense, "unnatural," no matter how good an idea it might be.
Actually, above made me to rethink and redefine natural as, primary natural and secondary natural. In "Inherent sense of right or wrong" a definition of natural, what Inherent should actually mean? Whether it is Inherentancy since basic level or also at some intermediate gross level--i.e secondary adaptations?

If we consider most Prime levels of our evolution, we may need to take, energy & molecular levels and food of these, if we need to take at gross human's body level, we nay need to check food for these.
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Old 12th November 2017, 07:02 AM   #1775
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I already tried and got it. Another was PETA link, which I quoted previously.




Is it domestication or social living?



Actually, above made me to rethink and redefine natural as, primary natural and secondary natural. In "Inherent sense of right or wrong" a definition of natural, what Inherent should actually mean? Whether it is Inherentancy since basic level or also at some intermediate gross level--i.e secondary adaptations?

If we consider most Prime levels of our evolution, we may need to take, energy & molecular levels and food of these, if we need to take at gross human's body level, we nay need to check food for these.
A PETA link, from someone who, a little while back, was covering his tracks for having posted a disputable PETA link by saying he doesn't actually cafe for PETA....in any case does it say what you think it says? It says our primate ancestors lived in trees. Does it say what they ate? Does it say what our primate cousins eat? and

Of course if you redefine natural to suit your preconceived idea of what you want it to mean, it will mean what you want it to. A flimsy preconceived idea of what constitutes "inherent" leads to a flimsy preconceived idea of what is "pprimary and secondary," and after all these pages and all this discussion we're right back to the conflation of "natural" with "moral" even though there is no morality in nature.

It's hopeless, isn't it?
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Old 12th November 2017, 08:09 AM   #1776
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
A PETA link, from someone who, a little while back, was covering his tracks for having posted a disputable PETA link by saying he doesn't actually cafe for PETA....in any case does it say what you think it says? It says our primate ancestors lived in trees. Does it say what they ate? Does it say what our primate cousins eat? and

Of course if you redefine natural to suit your preconceived idea of what you want it to mean, it will mean what you want it to. A flimsy preconceived idea of what constitutes "inherent" leads to a flimsy preconceived idea of what is "pprimary and secondary," and after all these pages and all this discussion we're right back to the conflation of "natural" with "moral" even though there is no morality in nature.

It's hopeless, isn't it?
Why it can't be possible, one is wrong at some point but right on many other points and I base that right part only? It is not right to blacklist anyone on just one point ignoring right points. Do you know Dolly sheep was also euthanized.
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Old 12th November 2017, 09:10 AM   #1777
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Do you know why she was euthanized?
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:09 PM   #1778
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Once ,I had very bad experiance by using google map. It suggested shortest route but that road was so ódd, we could reach two hour late and with lot of crowd and jerks. Then we asked ftom a locals, how this road suggested for so big tóurist destínation. He laughed snd asked, why you took this road when a byepass was there before 40 kms. Yes, some more distance but road was very good, you could had reached much early and comfortably.
So the practical approach was to keep on askíng from locals and reach destination better than using map. It is cultural system.
You didn't answer my question.



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Old 12th November 2017, 02:44 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Why it can't be possible, one is wrong at some point but right on many other points and I base that right part only? It is not right to blacklist anyone on just one point ignoring right points. Do you know Dolly sheep was also euthanized.
Of course it's possible for someone to be wrong one time and right the other. But when you don't have another source for judgment, the judgement of the intermittently wrong is unreliable. Peta may be right about some things, but they have been shown to be unreliable (at best) in many instances. If Peta is the best link you can get you're in trouble.

And what does the euthanasia of Dolly the sheep have to do with anything at all? I never mentioned euthanasia in the post to which you are responding. I never suggested that I oppose or support euthanasia, or under what circumstances I might do one or the other. So don't put words in others' mouths. You linked to Peta but I don't know why, as their ideas of nature are suspect, and besides, I don't even think that the article linked to says what you think it says. It says that our primate ancestors evolved from carnivorous small animals into arboreal dwellers which forage for vegetation. That's at least more or less true, but what of it? It certainly does not say that carnivorous animals are unnatural, nor does it say (at least I hope it does not say) that those arboreal dwellers and their descendants are or were only vegetarian.

There's a good argument for making our diet more plant based, and for many other things, but it's a far far cry from that to the preposterous conclusion that moral personhood demands that we become raw vegans. Given the effect of human beings on the earth, if you wanted to make a truly global moral argument (mind you I don't and I know it's silly) one would do better to argue for people to keep their paws out of the natural world, eat nothing but cooked, fatty, hormone-drenched domesticated meat, and die young. Who is to say that the world would not be a happier place if human beings simply went extinct? Of course the news would not spread very well, but the idea that ideas are of any importance is a human one alone, and if one is going to be a simplistic fool, why not take it all the way?
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Old 12th November 2017, 08:58 PM   #1780
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Do you know why she was euthanized?
Yes. Do you know it about PETA?
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Old 12th November 2017, 09:00 PM   #1781
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
You didn't answer my question.



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Old 12th November 2017, 09:11 PM   #1782
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course it's possible for someone to be wrong one time and right the other. But when you don't have another source for judgment, the judgement of the intermittently wrong is unreliable. Peta may be right about some things, but they have been shown to be unreliable (at best) in many instances. If Peta is the best link you can get you're in trouble.

And what does the euthanasia of Dolly the sheep have to do with anything at all? I never mentioned euthanasia in the post to which you are responding. I never suggested that I oppose or support euthanasia, or under what circumstances I might do one or the other. So don't put words in others' mouths. You linked to Peta but I don't know why, as their ideas of nature are suspect, and besides, I don't even think that the article linked to says what you think it says. It says that our primate ancestors evolved from carnivorous small animals into arboreal dwellers which forage for vegetation. That's at least more or less true, but what of it? It certainly does not say that carnivorous animals are unnatural, nor does it say (at least I hope it does not say) that those arboreal dwellers and their descendants are or were only vegetarian.

There's a good argument for making our diet more plant based, and for many other things, but it's a far far cry from that to the preposterous conclusion that moral personhood demands that we become raw vegans. Given the effect of human beings on the earth, if you wanted to make a truly global moral argument (mind you I don't and I know it's silly) one would do better to argue for people to keep their paws out of the natural world, eat nothing but cooked, fatty, hormone-drenched domesticated meat, and die young. Who is to say that the world would not be a happier place if human beings simply went extinct? Of course the news would not spread very well, but the idea that ideas are of any importance is a human one alone, and if one is going to be a simplistic fool, why not take it all the way?
I meant, perception can make one, to take similar happening as right at one point but wrong at other point. Probably practiced much in this forum.

About Veg/Non-veg, I do not understand, if there is no moral/natural issue about non-veg why, some god name/words spoken on slagtering, why non-veg discouraged on some auspicious days, events & places, why occasional vegetarian festivals preferred, why slaughtering at special places, why pain management & mercy killing , why disparities in slaughtering etc.? In short, why specificity in non veg bot not in veg?
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Old 12th November 2017, 09:24 PM   #1783
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Because people like making up rules, sometimes for good reasons, like specific slaughter houses, sometimes for stupid ones, like animals must suffer a violent death after a special man has whispered magic words in their ear
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Old 12th November 2017, 10:52 PM   #1784
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Because people like making up rules, sometimes for good reasons, like specific slaughter houses, sometimes for stupid ones, like animals must suffer a violent death after a special man has whispered magic words in their ear
Yes but slaughtering or killing is not choice of that who is got slaughtered/killed. Even not suicide but is compulsion. Some holy/magic words are also chanted at the time of slaughtering for food..(not sure all chant).

I think, many preferred practices in non-veg are bit different not open like veg, as if some odd/sin is committed. Why so, why not at par to veg?
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:08 PM   #1785
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:30 PM   #1786
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I meant, perception can make one, to take similar happening as right at one point but wrong at other point. Probably practiced much in this forum.

About Veg/Non-veg, I do not understand, if there is no moral/natural issue about non-veg why, some god name/words spoken on slagtering, why non-veg discouraged on some auspicious days, events & places, why occasional vegetarian festivals preferred, why slaughtering at special places, why pain management & mercy killing , why disparities in slaughtering etc.? In short, why specificity in non veg bot not in veg?
You're not the only one wrong, nor the only one making stuff up. Citing other nonsense to bolster your own does not help much. This is not to say that there are not, in my opinion, moral issues having to do with humane conduct. As to why specificity in non vegetarian issues but not in vegetarian, insofar as one can understand what you're saying, it would seem rather obvious to most of us at least that since vegetables are not animals, certain issues of humane slaughter and other actions simply don't apply. You of course may disagree, but there's a difference between a cat and a carrot. We simply don't need rules for the humane treatment of potatoes.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:49 PM   #1787
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
We simply don't need rules for the humane treatment of potatoes.
The fact that in the entire history of the internet someone somewhere found it necessary to type this sentence boggles the mind.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:58 PM   #1788
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You're not the only one wrong, nor the only one making stuff up. Citing other nonsense to bolster your own does not help much. This is not to say that there are not, in my opinion, moral issues having to do with humane conduct. As to why specificity in non vegetarian issues but not in vegetarian, insofar as one can understand what you're saying, it would seem rather obvious to most of us at least that since vegetables are not animals, certain issues of humane slaughter and other actions simply don't apply. You of course may disagree, but there's a difference between a cat and a carrot. We simply don't need rules for the humane treatment of potatoes.
Said truth. Yes, there is a differance between cat and carrot or chiken and tomato and in human moral, need ànd luxuary. But all odds should be at some price which we should try to understand for self.
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Old 13th November 2017, 01:50 AM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Do you know why she was euthanized?
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes.

OK, why was she euthanised?
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Old 13th November 2017, 01:55 AM   #1790
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Some holy/magic words are also chanted at the time of slaughtering for food.

Only by people who believe that it is part of their religion that is natural to it with inharent sense of right and wrong, and mass existing since long.
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Old 13th November 2017, 02:25 AM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
OK, why was she euthanised?
By ignoring, Spontaneous Remissions, near to death, can also possible. Anita Moorjani Case. If we base rationals made by us, it may not be a wish of a killed animal. Life has more value than pain.If we can justify such rationals, PETA also expressed rationals.
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Last edited by Kumar; 13th November 2017 at 02:26 AM. Reason: add
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Old 13th November 2017, 02:49 AM   #1792
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Quote:
On the 20th anniversary of Dolly's birth, researchers reveal they are putting the four other animals cloned from the same cell line to sleep as there is 'no scientific merit' in keeping the nine year old sheep alive.
They have undergone a battery of tests and seem to be in relatively good health for their advanced age, scientists said.
The health of each of the animals was compared with a group of naturally bred six-year-old sheep living under similar conditions at the University.
Despite their advanced age the cloned sheep were showing no signs of diabetes, high blood pressure, or clinical degenerative-joint disease.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz4yIsRmY00
Further to Dolly Sheep. Inspite of good health. ??
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Last edited by Kumar; 13th November 2017 at 02:50 AM. Reason: add
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Old 13th November 2017, 03:05 AM   #1793
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
When there is no other choice, anything available has to be opted in compulsion.
You are evading the issue: You have asked how we can use science if it is not "A&F". My point is that an incomplete map can still get you to your goal.

Science tells us a lot about reality, even if it does not tell us all.

And now, Kumar, I am tired of your "A&F" nonsense. It is a concept that has no place in a discussion about reality; this includes discussions about the reality of morals and religions. I shall therefore ignore any future post where you refer to it.

Hans
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Old 13th November 2017, 05:34 AM   #1794
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
OK, why was she euthanised?
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
By ignoring, Spontaneous Remissions, near to death, can also possible. Anita Moorjani Case. If we base rationals made by us, it may not be a wish of a killed animal. Life has more value than pain.If we can justify such rationals, PETA also expressed rationals.
Blimey
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Old 13th November 2017, 06:16 AM   #1795
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I meant, perception can make one, to take similar happening as right at one point but wrong at other point. Probably practiced much in this forum.

About Veg/Non-veg, I do not understand, if there is no moral/natural issue about non-veg why, some god name/words spoken on slagtering, why non-veg discouraged on some auspicious days, events & places, why occasional vegetarian festivals preferred, why slaughtering at special places, why pain management & mercy killing , why disparities in slaughtering etc.? In short, why specificity in non veg bot not in veg?
You are proposing to slaughter the vegetables? How will you be doing so humanely?
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:05 AM   #1796
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
You are evading the issue: You have asked how we can use science if it is not "A&F". My point is that an incomplete map can still get you to your goal.

Science tells us a lot about reality, even if it does not tell us all.

And now, Kumar, I am tired of your "A&F" nonsense. It is a concept that has no place in a discussion about reality; this includes discussions about the reality of morals and religions. I shall therefore ignore any future post where you refer to it.

Hans
Ok I shall take care. I shall expect simílar attide from you i.e to accept nón.....
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Old 13th November 2017, 08:44 AM   #1797
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Only by people who believe that it is part of their religion that is natural to it with inharent sense of right and wrong, and mass existing since long.
Could you please paraphrase that?

Hey! Wait a damn minute! What have you done with Mojo?
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Old 13th November 2017, 08:49 AM   #1798
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes. Do you know it about PETA?
This does not parse into English. Try again.
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Old 13th November 2017, 08:51 AM   #1799
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I'm tired of kumar's use of "odd" and of his even dumber "odds." What in the nine hells of buddhism does he mean by those words?

I don't expect him to tell me. Maybe he could whisper his explanation into the ear of a tomato

AND THEN SLAUGHTER IT!
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Old 13th November 2017, 09:27 AM   #1800
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I think "odds" are things Kumar thinks are wrong in his ********** up view of reality
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