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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , Democratic primaries , dnc , Donna Brazile , election controversies , hillary clinton

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Old 8th November 2017, 09:12 PM   #521
The Big Dog
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It wasn’t the Clinton machine, it was just the Clinton “supporters”.

Oh vey.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:18 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, when you said you found that my claims were not supported by the links, you meant you did not read them, and when you said it was a waste of time to read “all” my links, you meant you had not read any of them, and when you refuted my claims using my links, you blindly accepted other posters claims rather than reading them yourself...

Holy *********** Christ.

I did no accept blindly: some used quotes. You should try that sometimes! I rarely click links if no quote makes some appetite.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:31 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I did no accept blindly: some used quotes. You should try that sometimes! I rarely click links if no quote makes some appetite.
K.

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Old 8th November 2017, 09:58 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It wasn’t the Clinton machine, it was just the Clinton “supporters”.

Oh vey.
Yeah because Hillary is responsible for every single supporter and group that supports her, and has total control over them. I guess under that assumption it should be perfectly acceptable to blame Trump for the actions of those that support him too, right?
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:21 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah because Hillary is responsible for every single supporter and group that supports her, and has total control over them. I guess under that assumption it should be perfectly acceptable to blame Trump for the actions of those that support him too, right?
While I enjoy a fairly desperate straw man, I really got a kick out of the trump bit, because no one has ever blamed the trump for the activities of the alt right.

Sensational!
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:34 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah because Hillary is responsible for every single supporter and group that supports her, and has total control over them. I guess under that assumption it should be perfectly acceptable to blame Trump for the actions of those that support him too, right?

Probably more so. Considering the lengths he's willing to go to encourage them.

"knock the crap out of them," Trump said. "Just knock the hell — I promise you, I'll pay the legal fees."
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:57 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
not sure that 55% is considered a "landslide" win versus 43%, particularly as much of that margin was built both before primary voting even began and again after Hillary had already been coronated as the winner of the DNC Primary by major news organizations before the June primary votes which yielded her ~ 3+ Million votes after news that she had already won the DNC Primary.

Beyond this, please do keep demeaning and denigrating Sanders and his supporters, I'm sure this type of inflamed rhetoric will ingratiate the DNC with them going forward.
I'm not demeaning nor denigrating Bernie Sanders. I like the guy. I don't think he's presidential material, but he's a breath of fresh air in congress. I am demeaning and denigrating the Bernie Bros. They really need to re-examine their motivations.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:02 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Given how close the results where, basically all reasons are "the" reason Trump won.

Again we see your intractability on display.

Hard to build a big-tent coalition to take the country back with the attitude that I have to see it only your way.

You can take your telling me where I can or can't attempt to place blame and shove it up your ass, though.
You seem very angry at me for some reason. Maybe cool off a bit?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
So you have no clue what you're talking about, then?
Well, one of us doesn't.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I agree, the DNC's descent into becoming a high-class callgirl for corporate elites is really damned poorly timed.
This is not something new. It didn't happen during the last election. This has been a thing for generations. It got worse with Citizens United, which is why that needs to go.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm sure we'll hear all kinds of stories about how they'll be leaving their boring old wife (GOP) for us. It'll just be a little longer though...
Wut?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Next time use a real insult. Enough with this dancing around rule 0 ****.

Grow a spine or back off, please.
Grow a spine? What about my reply made it seem like I didn't posess a spine?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
NUH-UUUUUUUUHHHHHHHH!!!
Again, words.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I know you are, but what am I?
It seems you really need to take a break from this topic. It appears to have an adverse effect on you.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:03 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Maybe its a problem of even liberals being so stuck up their own ass in terms of U.S-centric view.

Poland, Hungary, Catalonia, Brexit, and numerous other electoral shocks and authoritarian turns throughout the west.

Trump is a symptom, stop thinking otherwise.

ETA: also, can't help but notice, did it again. Topic is Clinton/DNC, pivot to Trump happens...

Like I said, there's only ever really 2 parties: "in power" and "opposition." So here we are, now acting exactly like the GOP 8 years ago: petulant whiny little brats who won't accept one ounce of responsibility and are now starting to say "removing the opposing party from power matters more than all those ethical and moral concerns we used to pay lip service to."
I'm Swedish.
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Old 9th November 2017, 05:35 AM   #530
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Old 9th November 2017, 05:40 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You see folks, he found that my arguments were unsupported by the articles I linked to.

Links never clicked.

But I lied about something or other.

Wow.
Where did Oystein say or implied he read your links?

Do you think you could stop addressing your make-believe audience and instead participate in <gasp> a discussion here?
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Old 9th November 2017, 10:45 AM   #532
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Seems to me that the problem is Debbie Wasserman Shultz's incompetence. Obama gets some of the blame as well for installing her, and not really doing any fundraising or data sharing, preferring to use Organizing for America. It's something I've been hearing for years now.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:33 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm not demeaning nor denigrating Bernie Sanders. I like the guy. I don't think he's presidential material, but he's a breath of fresh air in congress. I am demeaning and denigrating the Bernie Bros. They really need to re-examine their motivations.
"Bernie Bros" are a mythical monster that only exist in the fevered imaginations and the guilty self-conscience tinted reflections establishment DNC fanatics see in their mirrors. It is a psychological crutch which helps them sleep at night, assuring them that they are not the only monsters in the night who are responsible for Trump in the White House.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:44 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
"Bernie Bros" are a mythical monster that only exist in the fevered imaginations and the guilty self-conscience tinted reflections establishment DNC fanatics see in their mirrors. It is a psychological crutch which helps them sleep at night, assuring them that they are not the only monsters in the night who are responsible for Trump in the White House.
I hadn't realised that there were still two "sides" to the left in the US.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:02 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I hadn't realised that there were still two "sides" to the left in the US.
There isn't, Progressives are the only actual Left (of any significance) in the US. The Democratic party moved to the right back in the 1990s which is largely why they've become all but irrelevant over the last 20 years. There has been a strong push by those on the Left to pull it back to relevance over the last 4-5 years but the establishment within the party is addicted to corporate money and the consequent legislative corporatist favors in the stead of pursuit of the legislative needs and desires of those who have traditionally provided electoral success to the Democratic party (the disadvantaged, discriminated against, impoverished. blue-collar service and labor families of all races, religions and national heritage).
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:09 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Progressives are the only actual Left (of any significance) in the US.
Bwa ha ha ha! Between logger calling everybody to the left of Sarah Palin "left-wing" and you excluding those outside your own bubble from the left, American politics are really hilarious.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:28 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
"Bernie Bros" are a mythical monster that only exist in the fevered imaginations and the guilty self-conscience tinted reflections establishment DNC fanatics see in their mirrors. It is a psychological crutch which helps them sleep at night, assuring them that they are not the only monsters in the night who are responsible for Trump in the White House.
As someone who ran into exactly such people online, and seen several Twitter timelines (I steer clear of Facebook) swarmed by their bile and slurs dring the primaries, you are very much mistaken. Jamil Smith wrote about it last year on the BBC.

Note that it was written during the primaries. Not that there's any guarantee they could vote to begin with, since they were online trolls.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:14 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
which is largely why they've become all but irrelevant over the last 20 years.
Really? You obviously as seeing a very different Democrat Party to the rest of the world.

In the last 20 years they have held the Presidency 11 years, and the Senate for 10 years. The place they have struggled is in the House, holding it for only 4 years, however if you look at the popular vote for the same elections, the Democrats do better, winning that 4 of 6 times. There are a few reasons for this including which party held the presidency (House votes often go against the Incumbent) and if it was a Presidential Election or an Off Year (Conservatives have traditionally done better in off years, Democrats better in Elections Years) and of course District Gerrymandering.

It also ignores the current 5-15% swing we are seeing in the Democrats favour in special elections and off-off year state elections.

Statistically, your argument is invalid.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:14 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
...but the establishment within the party is addicted to corporate money and the consequent legislative corporatist favors in the stead of pursuit of the legislative needs and desires of those who have traditionally provided electoral success to the Democratic party (the disadvantaged, discriminated against, impoverished. blue-collar service and labor families of all races, religions and national heritage).
They really have no choice, for the US electoral system, usually pictured as a 2-step process "1. Primaries - 2. General Election" is actually a 3-step process, in which the nominees for the primaries get pre-selected by Big Money: "1. Money Pre-Selection - 2. Primaries - 3. General Election".

The first step is totally dominated by Big Money - large corporations, super-rich individuals. There are probably little more than 50,000 individuals (0.02% of the population - typically with personal wealth >$50 million, and or controlling corporations with revenue >$1 billion/a) who pick a commanding majority of the most important nominees in both parties. How? Simply by donating bigly to their campaigns BEFORE primaries even get into gear.

The Democtatic party cannot elect to forfeit their donations: Candidates not vetted by Big Money will not get Big Money's big money in the GE.
You have the occasional exception to that rule when an idiosyncratic, charismatic individual comes along who can generate serious campaign funds through true crowdfunding. Sanders was such an example, he got enough to challenge Clinton and finish close in the primaries, but not enough to win, and he would have been at a huge financial disadvantage to Trump in the GE.


The solution is not to heroically ignore Big Money - the solution is to outlaw Big Money as a main driver of political campaign financing. But that is of course not going to happen as long as the vast majority of office holders owe their holding office to Big Money pre-selecting them in order to compete in Step 2 - the primaries.


It's the same reason Iran won't abandon the primacy of Shia state religion anytime soon, despite having surprisingly diverse parties and free, democratic elections: The Clerical elite, 0.02% of the population, gets to pre-select all the candidates.
It's the same reason why Hong Kong will never steer a course independent of Beijing: HK may have a pluralistic, democratic system, but there is a body of 2,000 delegates of the communist party (0.02% of the population) that gets to vet and pre-select all the candidates.


The problem with Democracy in the USA is the same as with Democracy in Iran or Hong Kong: No reform-minded party can ever hope to get a truly reform-minded canidate elected, because that candidate would not even enter the race on account of being opposed by the top 0.02% elite of the true Ruling Class.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:58 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If the Democrats had done poorly would that have indicated an anti-Trump surge better?
Of course not. But let's not think that these wins mean much. 2018 matters. We'll see what happens then.
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Old 9th November 2017, 05:23 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Bwa ha ha ha! Between logger calling everybody to the left of Sarah Palin "left-wing" and you excluding those outside your own bubble from the left, American politics are really hilarious.
The Dems seem to have their own version of The Tea Party to handle:A bunch of ideological purist for whom everything but 100% allegence to the proper ideology is anathema..
The ideologies differ by the mentality is the same...
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:51 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
As someone who ran into exactly such people online, and seen several Twitter timelines (I steer clear of Facebook) swarmed by their bile and slurs dring the primaries, you are very much mistaken. Jamil Smith wrote about it last year on the BBC.

Note that it was written during the primaries. Not that there's any guarantee they could vote to begin with, since they were online trolls.
Online trolls are online trolls, positing such as anything actually representative of any substantive representation of Senator Sanders or his supporters is the mirage. There were more Obama voters who voted for Trump, than there were actual Sanders supporters who voted for Trump in 2016.

No body on the Left wants to weaken or hurt the opportunity for the Democratic Party to thwart the Conservative agenda and help quide the Democratic party back to its Progressive roots and popular public policies. Speaking of leadership:

Quote:
...What the recently released book excerpt from former interim DNC Chair Donna Brazile made clear is that unless we get our act together, we are not going to be effective in either taking on Donald Trump or in stopping the extremist right-wing Republican agenda. We have to re-establish faith with the American people that in fact we can make positive changes in this country through a fair and transparent political process that reflects the will of voters across this country.

In order to do that, we need to rethink and rebuild the Democratic Party. We need a Democratic Party that opens its doors to new people, new energy and new ideas. We need a Democratic Party that is truly a grassroots party, where decisions are made from the bottom up, not from the top down. We need a Democratic Party which becomes the political home of the working people and young people of this country, black and white, Latino and Asian and Native American*… all Americans...
(text from a Sanders email to supporters, copy at https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...erez-implement )
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:05 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
"Bernie Bros" are a mythical monster that only exist in the fevered imaginations and the guilty self-conscience tinted reflections establishment DNC fanatics see in their mirrors. It is a psychological crutch which helps them sleep at night, assuring them that they are not the only monsters in the night who are responsible for Trump in the White House.
You sound like Trump: "The Russia thing is fake news."

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Old 10th November 2017, 12:11 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
There isn't, Progressives are the only actual Left (of any significance) in the US....
Bwa ha ha ha! Between logger calling everybody to the left of Sarah Palin "left-wing" and you excluding those outside your own bubble from the left, American politics are really hilarious.
I don't exclude any group beyond progressives as being on the left, they exclude themselves from significance, how many votes did any other left group receive in 2016? (to further seal the point, even those who I don't necessarily consider progressive, self-consider themselves to be progressive. Given that, Progressism earned more than half of all the votes recorded in 2016.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:23 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Dems seem to have their own version of The Tea Party to handle:A bunch of ideological purist for whom everything but 100% allegence to the proper ideology is anathema..
The ideologies differ by the mentality is the same...
So those who wish to sow division, discord and disruption on the Left would have some believe.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:59 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Dems seem to have their own version of The Tea Party to handle:A bunch of ideological purist for whom everything but 100% allegence to the proper ideology is anathema..
The ideologies differ by the mentality is the same...
Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
So those who wish to sow division, discord and disruption on the Left would have some believe.
I'm in the UK and so only get the US politics headlines so please forgive me if I'm under informed. I've not heard of the Democratic Party equivalent of the Tea Party before now:
  • Do they have a name ?
  • Do they have a radical set of policies which are different to those of the party as a whole ?
  • Are they a large and vocal minority ?
  • Do they exert a great deal of influence within the party, especially when it comes down to the primary process and having their candidates selected ?
  • Has it been "Astroturfed" by big donors rather like the Tea Party ?

I'm not excluding the existence of such a group. For 20 years the Labour Party had a disaffected group of old left wing "Trots" who were very unhappy with everything New Labour stood for. They were however an irrelevance until there was an influx of new blood which reinvigorated the hard left and a new movement, Momentum, was born - this in turn has caused a lurch to the left, support for Brexit and my (self) ejection from the party.

Has something similar happened in the Democratic Party ?
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Old 10th November 2017, 04:02 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm in the UK and so only get the US politics headlines so please forgive me if I'm under informed. I've not heard of the Democratic Party equivalent of the Tea Party before now:
  • Do they have a name ?
  • Do they have a radical set of policies which are different to those of the party as a whole ?
  • Are they a large and vocal minority ?
  • Do they exert a great deal of influence within the party, especially when it comes down to the primary process and having their candidates selected ?
  • Has it been "Astroturfed" by big donors rather like the Tea Party ?

I'm not excluding the existence of such a group. For 20 years the Labour Party had a disaffected group of old left wing "Trots" who were very unhappy with everything New Labour stood for. They were however an irrelevance until there was an influx of new blood which reinvigorated the hard left and a new movement, Momentum, was born - this in turn has caused a lurch to the left, support for Brexit and my (self) ejection from the party.

Has something similar happened in the Democratic Party ?
From where I sit, it's rather obvious that there exists a fringe in the Democratic party who constituted the "Bernie-or-bust" group. Common denominators for these people is that they are ideological purists and very loud, but not that numerous. If there were more of them, Bernie would have done better. They are almost all white as well for some reason, allegedly.

They apparently see themselves as abandoned by the rest of the Democratic party, who they perceive has ventured too far to the right. This is analogous with the Tea-Party movement who perceived a similar shift for the GOP, but in the opposite direction. The "Bernie bros" aren't an organized movement yet, but they might well become one.

I have no problem with Bernie bros working to bring the Democratic party to the left. I do have a problem with them instigating a civil war in as precarious a time as this.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:39 AM   #548
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:52 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
From where I sit, it's rather obvious that there exists a fringe in the Democratic party who constituted the "Bernie-or-bust" group. Common denominators for these people is that they are ideological purists and very loud, but not that numerous. If there were more of them, Bernie would have done better. They are almost all white as well for some reason, allegedly.
.....
You're going to have to go a long way to prove your point. Starting late with limited funds, Sanders did much better than he himself ever expected, and he campaigned aggressively for Clinton in the general election. And Sanders' core positions are straight out of the traditional Democratic playbook. For most of their history, state colleges were affordable to everybody, and some were free. Even Nixon wanted universal health insurance. The Democratic Party and labor unions were closely allied. Etc. Comparing the liberal wing of the modern Democratic Party to Tea Party extremists is just misguided.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:34 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Happy belated anniversary!

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Old 10th November 2017, 05:01 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm in the UK and so only get the US politics headlines so please forgive me if I'm under informed. I've not heard of the Democratic Party equivalent of the Tea Party before now...
That is because it primarily exists only as a derogatory comparison created by economically conservative Democrats who gained control of the leadership of the Democratic party under the DLC of the Clintons in the 1990s. Not realizing that conflict and ideological pressures are the core elements of a thriving democracy, it is easier for them to insult and dismiss the voices of those who wish to bring the Democratic Party back to its root values and focus, rather than to address the problems and issues within the party.

The Tea Party is a top-down faction of the GOP (more astroturf than grassroots), funded and organized by big-moneyed conservative donors. There is no Democratic Tea Party equivalent, though there are some populist elements of the democratic party (and many similar third party movements outside the Democratic party) which have begun supporting more populist Left challengers against big-business corporatist Democratic office-holders and candidates.
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:09 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
So those who wish to sow division, discord and disruption on the Left would have some believe.
When I was a silly Christian, I was once thrown (not literally) out of a church for sowing division, discord, and disruption criticising unethical behavior.

I don't intend to act any different now.

Funny to hear from the side that constantly makes appeals to diversity of opinion, however.
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:15 PM   #553
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I get this is basically tipping at windmills, but maybe, just maybe, if we didn't depend on the two parties to tell us, the voting public, who the anointed candidates we are supposed to vote for are, this wouldn't be an issue.

On the most basic of levels this is beyond absurd. "Well I was going to vote for Bill but then I got told I had to vote for Steve unless I wanted Ted to win."
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:42 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I get this is basically tipping at windmills, but maybe, just maybe, if we didn't depend on the two parties to tell us, the voting public, who the anointed candidates we are supposed to vote for are, this wouldn't be an issue.

On the most basic of levels this is beyond absurd. "Well I was going to vote for Bill but then I got told I had to vote for Steve unless I wanted Ted to win."
You don't have to give them the time of day. I don't.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:03 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You don't have to give them the time of day. I don't.
Neither do i
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:14 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Isn't that just a matter of being popular enough?
As much as getting in the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" is just a vote.

Who decides the rules of who gets to debate?
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:26 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
As much as getting in the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" is just a vote.

Who decides the rules of who gets to debate?
The Commission on Presidential Debates
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...ential_Debates

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Old 11th November 2017, 10:57 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah because Hillary is responsible for every single supporter and group that supports her, and has total control over them.

That does seem to be the implication. Which leads me to (half seriously) wonder how acceptable the notion that "the Electoral College and Republican gerrymandering are the only effective counter to Democrat mind control" might actually be to some of these folks.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:29 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
That does seem to be the implication. Which leads me to (half seriously) wonder how acceptable the notion that "the Electoral College and Republican gerrymandering are the only effective counter to Democrat mind control" might actually be to some of these folks.
You agree with that spectacularly over the top straw Man?

Huh
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Old 11th November 2017, 01:39 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
How many of these people represent the interests of parties beyond Democratic and Republican?

Quote:
Commission Leadership

Co-Chairmen

Frank J. Fahrenkopf, Jr.
Dorothy S. Ridings

Honorary Co-Chairmen

Gerald R. Ford*
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan*

Co-Chairman Emeritus

Paul G. Kirk, Jr.

Board of Directors

John C. Danforth
Charles Gibson
John Griffen
Jane Harman
Antonia Hernandez
Reverend John I. Jenkins
Jim Lehrer
Michael D. McCurry
Newton N. Minow
Richard D. Parsons
Olympia Snowe
Executive Director

Janet H. Brown
Not intended as a derail. Intended as an insight into whether the Democratic Party, and Republican Party, have been placed in positions of governmental power beyond their ostensible positions as private organizations.
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