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Old 15th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #121
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are taking your interpretation that the first amendment circle is within the free speech circle as right. My point is that does not hold for every party you are talking to.
well as we have seen, I am a get along guy! Please explain for the crowd what part of the first amendment free speech protection lies outside the free speech circle.

Or to put it another way, in your Venn diagram, which you are interested in, please describe what first amendment speech protection is outside the free speech circle.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:58 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well as we have seen, I am a get along guy! Please explain for the crowd what part of the first amendment free speech protection lies outside the free speech circle.

Or to put it another way, in your Venn diagram, which you are interested in, please describe what first amendment speech protection is outside the free speech circle.
Suppose I define free speech as not actually including fictional beliefs such as religious beliefs. The fact first amendment protection extends to religions would not be a free speech issue.
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:04 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Suppose I define free speech as not actually including fictional beliefs such as religious beliefs. The fact first amendment protection extends to religions would not be a free speech issue.
Ah, you are correct that the First amendment does cover more than free speech, it covers free exercise of religion, etc.

Knowing that, of course, is why we have been focusing like a laser on "first amendment free speech protection." So the circle is "first amendment free speech protection" and the question is what in the circle ""first amendment free speech protection" lies outside 'free speech"?
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:30 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, you are correct that the First amendment does cover more than free speech, it covers free exercise of religion, etc.

Knowing that, of course, is why we have been focusing like a laser on "first amendment free speech protection." So the circle is "first amendment free speech protection" and the question is what in the circle ""first amendment free speech protection" lies outside 'free speech"?
I didn't phrase it correctly. I meant free speech excludes any beliefs in a higher power, so protecting the ability to espouse religious beliefs is not a free speech issue even though first amendment speech issues cover it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:49 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't phrase it correctly. I meant free speech excludes any beliefs in a higher power, so protecting the ability to espouse religious beliefs is not a free speech issue even though first amendment speech issues cover it.
If I understand you properly, you are using two different definitions of free speech, one that excludes 'espousing religious beliefs' and the one under the first amendment that covers "espousing religious beliefs"?

It seems that you are interested in definitions after all! We should however endeavor to select a single definition that we are using, one that makes sense and is consistent don't you agree?

That being said, you see you have once again shown that we have once again shown that the assertion that the first amendment and the freedom of speech are interchangeable is specious, because your revised definition still covers free speech situations (like the case cited above) where the first amendment does not apply!
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Old 15th September 2017, 11:08 AM   #126
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Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Removed moderated material.


Usually I try to find articles and case law and explaining basic principles like the first amendment is a floor and not a ceiling and other fundamental issues like that.

Conversely, that must be old hat to fellas like you who have the time to come in and do literally nothing more complain about it.

"Knowledge" as they say is "half the battle" and now I know I gotta bring my A game.

You fellas have a chance to read the California Supreme Court opinion on that yet?

Oregon law is the same

Ultimately, I think you will find that lots of State's law is similar and as such I really hope that you guys will really tuck in and embrace the subject!
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Old 15th September 2017, 11:18 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
For goodness sake fellas, don't I know it!

Usually I try to find articles and case law and explaining basic principles like the first amendment is a floor and not a ceiling and other fundamental issues like that.

Conversely, that must be old hat to fellas like you who have the time to come in and do literally nothing more complain about it.

"Knowledge" as they say is "half the battle" and now I know I gotta bring my A game.

You fellas have a chance to read the California Supreme Court opinion on that yet?

Oregon law is the same

Ultimately, I think you will find that lots of State's law is similar and as such I really hope that you guys will really tuck in and embrace the subject!
Not a *********** clue what you mean. Whether a concept of "free speech" is different than the first amendment can't be settled by case law. In fact, the question is damn near meaningless, but I sure am impressed by your citations nonetheless.
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Old 15th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not a *********** clue what you mean. Whether a concept of "free speech" is different than the first amendment can't be settled by case law. In fact, the question is damn near meaningless, but I sure am impressed by your citations nonetheless.
Sure it can! We can look at case law and see that they afford broader protections to it than does the federal first amendment! Heck, i think Ohio law is the same.

As such, what we have showed is that although the first amendment might not apply to the lady's complaints about trump, bedrock principles of free speech certainly do, because we have all learned that free speech and the first amendment are not interchangeable because free speech is much broader.

And you learned that right here in this thread.
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:00 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If I understand you properly, you are using two different definitions of free speech, one that excludes 'espousing religious beliefs' and the one under the first amendment that covers "espousing religious beliefs"?

It seems that you are interested in definitions after all! We should however endeavor to select a single definition that we are using, one that makes sense and is consistent don't you agree?

That being said, you see you have once again shown that we have once again shown that the assertion that the first amendment and the freedom of speech are interchangeable is specious, because your revised definition still covers free speech situations (like the case cited above) where the first amendment does not apply!
If free speech does not include espousing religious beliefs, then the first amendment addressing espousing religious beliefs is not addressing free speech.
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:08 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sure it can! We can look at case law and see that they afford broader protections to it than does the federal first amendment! Heck, i think Ohio law is the same.

As such, what we have showed is that although the first amendment might not apply to the lady's complaints about trump, bedrock principles of free speech certainly do, because we have all learned that free speech and the first amendment are not interchangeable because free speech is much broader.

And you learned that right here in this thread.
I'd reckon that the question is about human rights, not legal rights, but whatever.

If we go back to the original issue, I must say I don't see much controversy. It's a bit weird for the gov't to weigh in on whether one could be fired for her comments, but I wouldn't be shocked or annoyed if she were fired.

But if the dispute is fundamentally about what free speech rights one ought, morally speaking, have, and not what legal rights they indeed have, then no amount of courtroom citations will adequately answer the question.
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If free speech does not include espousing religious beliefs, then the first amendment addressing espousing religious beliefs is not addressing free speech.
I thought we agreed that we were focusing on only this clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech."

"Knowing that, of course, is why we have been focusing like a laser on "first amendment free speech protection."

Let us then focus like a laser on that issue, particularly as we agree that the dispute under review (the ESPN attacks) does not implicate the free exercise clause in any way shape or form.
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:35 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/13/medi...use/index.html

ESPN Host Jemele Hill doesn't like Trump, and says so publicly.



The White House responds with;

I think this is just another example of the Trump administration shooting itself in the foot. Trump has all but said that neo-nazis are his people; it should be no surprise that people object to it very publicly.

Ranb

ETA; and yes, I've botched my thread title again, two words wrong this time.
Does this mean they also believe that NBC should have fired Donald for his promoting the racist birther conspiracy?
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:36 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Will Bill Maher do play by play or color commentary?
Hey, if Dennis Miller could do it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:48 PM   #134
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Related thread.
"There are two things I believe in. The First Amendment, and boobs."
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:07 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I thought we agreed that we were focusing on only this clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech."

"Knowing that, of course, is why we have been focusing like a laser on "first amendment free speech protection."

Let us then focus like a laser on that issue, particularly as we agree that the dispute under review (the ESPN attacks) does not implicate the free exercise clause in any way shape or form.
I am also excluding that. Religious speech would still be under the framework you left uncrossed.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:07 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm hoping that saying out loud what every darned one of us was thinking doesn't cross the line.
That's what you're thinking? I was thinking it was funny watching TBD inadvertently criticizing the Trump administration, and wondering when he'll realize he's doing it and try to nonchalantly reverse his argument.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:13 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I am also excluding that. Religious speech would still be under the framework you left uncrossed.
Fantastic. We are right where we began...

"because we have all learned that free speech and the first amendment are not interchangeable.'

feels good to agree, yes?
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:14 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
That's what you're thinking? I was thinking it was funny watching TBD inadvertently criticizing the Trump administration, and wondering when he'll realize he's doing it and try to nonchalantly reverse his argument.
I calls them like I sees them.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:16 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Fantastic. We are right where we began...

"because we have all learned that free speech and the first amendment are not interchangeable.'

feels good to agree, yes?
Which doesn't negate a belief that the sum total of every free speech issue is limited inside the first amendment. You keep ignoring one part or the other.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:21 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which doesn't negate a belief that the sum total of every free speech issue is limited inside the first amendment. You keep ignoring one part or the other.
I have nuked that "belief' from orbit repeatedly. See my discussion of State law affording broader protection.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:23 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have nuked that "belief' from orbit repeatedly. See my discussion of State law affording broader protection.
And I said person X has a position such that they do not view those state laws as addressing free speech issues. The state can call it free speech all they want, it doesn't make it true for person X.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:34 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And I said person X has a position such that they do not view those state laws as addressing free speech issues. The state can call it free speech all they want, it doesn't make it true for person X.
And on what basis does person x hold that position? (I will stipulate and agree that there are people that may hold such a position by dint of mental illness or perhaps irredeemable ignorance but what we are looking for a person with say 5 standard deviations of the mean)
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:37 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And on what basis does person x hold that position? (I will stipulate and agree that there are people that may hold such a position by dint of mental illness or perhaps irredeemable ignorance but what we are looking for a person with say 5 standard deviations of the mean)
It is irrelevant why they hold that position. You didn't carve out an incompetence exemption in post 40.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:42 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's more like Alien vs Predator: whoever wins, we lose.
Only if you hate free speech and popcorn. Why do you hate popcorn?
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:43 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is irrelevant why they hold that position. You didn't carve out an incompetence exemption in post 40.
Sure I did! I said:

Quote:
The fact that certain people do not understand that free speech is broader than freedom from governmental regulation is *********** baffling.
That people are mentally ill and do not understand it, or ignorant or hold perverse beliefs is indeed baffling.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:45 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sure I did! I said:



That people are mentally ill and do not understand it, or ignorant or hold perverse beliefs is indeed baffling.
It is baffling to you that there are people with mental illness and do not understand? That seems straight forward.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:54 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is baffling to you that there are people with mental illness and do not understand? That seems straight forward.
Oh I understand the concept, of course, just not the whys and wherefores.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:58 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh I understand the concept, of course, just not the whys and wherefores.
Regardless, whatever reason they hold, it isn't baffling. People who hold an uncommon view on free speech have probably had to deal with more arguments to the contrary than most. I would think many do understand, but disagree with it. That also seems very straightforward.
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Old 15th September 2017, 02:05 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Regardless, whatever reason they hold, it isn't baffling. People who hold an uncommon view on free speech have probably had to deal with more arguments to the contrary than most. I would think many do understand, but disagree with it. That also seems very straightforward.
Well there we are again! What we are looking at is a the basis why they disagree with it. Just saying that some people might disagree with it is not really an argument let alone an analysis. Sure some people might have that uncommon view and might disagree with it! I agree, there are indeed lots of truly ignorant people in the world.

Where we are now is exploring whether there is a reason to disagree other than profound metal illness/ignorance or the like.

I sure can't think of a reason and you have not provided one, so again I think it is great that we agree.
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Old 15th September 2017, 06:51 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
I believe that this was a calculated last ditch effort to get attention for a failing TV show.
I'd bet the over on that. Let's see how SC6's ratings are in a month.
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Freedom of speech is a fundamental human right
Nope. that's a neat idea, but it's not a fact.
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None of us are actually for "freedom of speech" because we all have lines we don't want crossed.
Speak for yourself. That's not how I feel about free speech.
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It's like watching Liberty v. Baylor. Except here they can both lose.
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It's more like Alien vs Predator: whoever wins, we lose.
Yeah with salsa.
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Hey, if Dennis Miller could do it.
Fair point, but he wasn't that good at it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 06:59 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well there we are again! What we are looking at is a the basis why they disagree with it. Just saying that some people might disagree with it is not really an argument let alone an analysis. Sure some people might have that uncommon view and might disagree with it! I agree, there are indeed lots of truly ignorant people in the world.

Where we are now is exploring whether there is a reason to disagree other than profound metal illness/ignorance or the like.

I sure can't think of a reason and you have not provided one, so again I think it is great that we agree.
I see no reason to provide reasons as I don't feel it is actually relevant. I don't care if there exists a reason to disagree.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:01 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I see no reason to provide reasons as I don't feel it is actually relevant. I don't care if there exists a reason to disagree.
There isn't! We agree. Sensational.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:11 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There isn't! We agree. Sensational.
We don't agree. I'm not convinced of your position that there is no reason
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:36 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We don't agree. I'm not convinced of your position that there is no reason
Well typically one would expect that one would, you know, give a reason, although one would not expect that where the only people that dispute it are people more than five standard deviations from the mean including the mentally disabled and the irredeemably ignorant.

On this I think we agree, correct?
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Old 16th September 2017, 04:42 AM   #155
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[quote=Ranb;11994338]http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/13/medi...use/index.html

ESPN Host Jemele Hill doesn't like Trump, and says so publicly.



The White House responds with;

Quote:
I think this is just another example of the Trump administration shooting itself in the foot. Trump has all but said that neo-nazis are his people; it should be no surprise that people object to it very publicly.
Where did you come up with that ********! He hasn't said anything like that at all and you know it and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Liberals have gone bonkers. Hillary supporters are a basket of despicables.
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Old 16th September 2017, 05:41 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well typically one would expect that one would, you know, give a reason, although one would not expect that where the only people that dispute it are people more than five standard deviations from the mean including the mentally disabled and the irredeemably ignorant.

On this I think we agree, correct?
No.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:08 AM   #157
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No.
Say, that was the closest you have come to making an affirmative claim!

I did enjoy our dialogue through which so many people learned so much from me.

Plato would be proud.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:15 AM   #158
phiwum
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, that was the closest you have come to making an affirmative claim!

I did enjoy our dialogue through which so many people learned so much from me.

Plato would be proud.
I wonder. At some point, when one says such patently stupid things, they're kinda egging on a response which is not compliant with the rules of this forum. I wonder whether or not such egregious egging on should be taken into account.

Just an idle thought.

Anyway, yeah, Plato would totally be proud. Whatever.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #159
applecorped
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I wonder. At some point, when one says such patently stupid things, they're kinda egging on a response which is not compliant with the rules of this forum. I wonder whether or not such egregious egging on should be taken into account.

Just an idle thought.

Anyway, yeah, Plato would totally be proud. Whatever.
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Old 16th September 2017, 08:30 AM   #160
phiwum
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It's really, really nice that there are pictures for those who can't use words. Really nice. It makes it like they're participating and everything.
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