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Old 16th September 2017, 08:34 AM   #161
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Can I just say that I find it adorable when The Big Dog tries to pose as a careful and rigorous thinker and that there is no better foil for him than the equally careful and rigorous BobTheCoward?

I'm hoping that saying out loud what every darned one of us was thinking doesn't cross the line.
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not a *********** clue what you mean. Whether a concept of "free speech" is different than the first amendment can't be settled by case law. In fact, the question is damn near meaningless, but I sure am impressed by your citations nonetheless.
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I wonder. At some point, when one says such patently stupid things, they're kinda egging on a response which is not compliant with the rules of this forum. I wonder whether or not such egregious egging on should be taken into account.

Just an idle thought.

Anyway, yeah, Plato would totally be proud. Whatever.
Thanks ever so much for your contributions to this thread.

Say did you have the chance to read the several legal citations, or the articles that I have linked? I am guessing the answer is yes, but perhaps you did not follow them. I'd be happy to "walk" you through them.
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Old 16th September 2017, 09:51 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks ever so much for your contributions to this thread.

Say did you have the chance to read the several legal citations, or the articles that I have linked? I am guessing the answer is yes, but perhaps you did not follow them. I'd be happy to "walk" you through them.
Well, prior to my being helpfully walked through these articles, I must confess that I'm not altogether clear on what you're trying to establish. Could you please summarize it in a sentence or two (or more, if necessary)?

Thanks much. I do admit to not having followed your arguments carefully thus far and it might be that I agree with your conclusion. We'll see.
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Old 16th September 2017, 10:04 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Well, prior to my being helpfully walked through these articles, I must confess that I'm not altogether clear on what you're trying to establish. Could you please summarize it in a sentence or two (or more, if necessary)?

Thanks much. I do admit to not having followed your arguments carefully thus far and it might be that I agree with your conclusion. We'll see.
Certainly! It can be summed up thusly:

Quote:
All of this is to say that if someone is arguing that he or she is not violating free speech when attempting to silence an unpopular opinion or if this person says that something was not technically censored because the government wasn’t involved, he or she does not know what he or she is talking about.
I have also demonstrated that free speech is broader than the protections afforded by the first amendment, that many states have broader than federal first amendment protections, and that the first amendment is a floor not a ceiling.
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Old 16th September 2017, 11:03 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Certainly! It can be summed up thusly:



I have also demonstrated that free speech is broader than the protections afforded by the first amendment, that many states have broader than federal first amendment protections, and that the first amendment is a floor not a ceiling.
Well, I reckon it could well be the case that some (even many) states have broader such protections. I haven't looked into it myself nor checked your citations, but I'll take your word for it. Why not?

So, yes, unless someone produces clear evidence otherwise, I'll grant your conclusion!
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:04 PM   #165
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She still on the air? Last I checked, the answer is yes.

Guess it was not a fire-able offense.
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Old 9th October 2017, 05:33 PM   #166
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http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/09/es...for-two-weeks/

Jemele Hill has been suspended for two weeks for a second violation of our social media guidelines. She previously acknowledged letting her colleagues and company down with an impulsive tweet. In the aftermath, all employees were reminded of how individual tweets may reflect negatively on ESPN and that such actions would have consequences. Hence this decision.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:08 PM   #167
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And apparently getting photographed flipping the bird at the President on your day off is a fireable offence too....

Originally Posted by Stuff.co.nz
On Halloween, after Briskman gave her bosses at Akima LLC, a government contracting firm, a heads-up that she was the unidentified cyclist in the photo, they took her into a room and fired her, she said, escorting her out of the building with a box of her stuff.

"I wasn't even at work when I did that," Briskman said. "But they told me I violated the code of conduct policy."
What was the code of conduct she apparently broke?

"Covered Social Media Activity that contains discriminatory, obscene malicious or threatening content, is knowingly false, create [sic] a hostile work environment, or similar inappropriate or unlawful conduct will not be tolerated and will be subject to discipline up to an [sic] including termination of employment."

So yeah, having a photo of you giving the president the bird put on social media without your permission is a fireable offence.

You know what isn't?

Posting the following into a civil discussion using your Senior Director Company ID....

"You're a (expletive) Libtard a.....,"

Quote:
Briskman has contacted the American Civil Liberties Union about the case.
I certainly hope she wins!
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:22 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So yeah, having a photo of you giving the president the bird put on social media without your permission is a fireable offence.
Apparently untrue:

Quote:
By Tuesday, her bosses called her into a meeting and said she had violated the company’s social media policy by using the photo as her profile picture on Twitter and Facebook.
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:33 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently untrue:
That does change matters somewhat!
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:33 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently untrue:
Well it was put on social media without her permission, though true the article I had didn't say she'd gone on to use it as a profile picture. Still the idea that giving the bird to anyone is "obscene or lewd" while calling someone "a *********** Libtard *******" is not... Yeah. I think that their policy is being selectively enforced at best and politically motivated at worse. I still thinks she should win any case against them.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:06 PM   #171
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Okay how exactly does some cyclist come to be riding alongside the presidential motorcade in the first place? I wouldn't have thought they would be sharing road space with anyone.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:12 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Okay how exactly does some cyclist come to be riding alongside the presidential motorcade in the first place? I wouldn't have thought they would be sharing road space with anyone.
She was apparently out cycling and they came zooming past her.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:36 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well it was put on social media without her permission, though true the article I had didn't say she'd gone on to use it as a profile picture. Still the idea that giving the bird to anyone is "obscene or lewd" while calling someone "a *********** Libtard *******" is not... Yeah. I think that their policy is being selectively enforced at best and politically motivated at worse. I still thinks she should win any case against them.
Yeah, and we know this is true because she says so. She's got screencaps to prove it? At best she's got a claim that they have been inconsistent about enforcing the policy. Maybe she gets him fired as a result. Doesn't mean they can't fire her.
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Old 6th November 2017, 03:04 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Not true.

This is at least her second offense,, she was previously suspended for a week for making other stupid comments:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...ds-jemele-hill
Her very accurate statement about the slime trumpf is accurate (though not nearly vile enough for that thug) and truthful so nothing should happen bad to her.
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Old 6th November 2017, 03:07 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Not true.

This is at least her second offense,, she was previously suspended for a week for making other stupid comments:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...ds-jemele-hill
You still do not get it. She is telling truth, Trump is a flaming ******* and a blot and stain on the US.......
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Old 6th November 2017, 03:08 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/09/es...for-two-weeks/

Jemele Hill has been suspended for two weeks for a second violation of our social media guidelines. She previously acknowledged letting her colleagues and company down with an impulsive tweet. In the aftermath, all employees were reminded of how individual tweets may reflect negatively on ESPN and that such actions would have consequences. Hence this decision.
That decision tells me ESPN has no guts and no worth at all!!!!
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Old 6th November 2017, 03:10 PM   #177
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I just heard on the news that a journalist is facing imprisonment for criticizing Robert Mugabe. It's good to have a goal to shoot for.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:26 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I just heard on the news that a journalist is facing imprisonment for criticizing Robert Mugabe. It's good to have a goal to shoot for.
LOL. Things aren't as bad as you imagine they could be, but if I squint really hard I can kinda see how they might be? That's a pretty weak indictment, bruto.
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Old 6th November 2017, 06:16 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
She was apparently out cycling and they came zooming past her.
Playing through!
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Old 6th November 2017, 06:24 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL. Things aren't as bad as you imagine they could be, but if I squint really hard I can kinda see how they might be? That's a pretty weak indictment, bruto.
I know that, but there's time to catch up.
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Old 6th November 2017, 06:31 PM   #181
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She's lucky the secret service didn't knock her to the ground.


I hope she gets her job back too.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:21 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I know that, but there's time to catch up.
Catch up to what? Speak plainly. What's the trajectory you're trying to describe?
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Old 6th November 2017, 11:08 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Catch up to what? Speak plainly. What's the trajectory you're trying to describe?
Not being exactly serious.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:34 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not being exactly serious.
Ah. It's hard to tell, sometimes. I often wonder if there's any serious criticism of Trump from the left at all.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:06 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ah. It's hard to tell, sometimes. I often wonder if there's any serious criticism of Trump from the left at all.
None at all. We are terribly excited about how how things are going. It's just against our nature to admit as much.
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:02 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
None at all. We are terribly excited about how how things are going. It's just against our nature to admit as much.
I mean, there's a lot of earnest criticism from the left. A lot of well-intentioned criticism that takes itself seriously, that expects others to take it seriously.

But criticism that deserves to be taken seriously? I sometimes wonder. This goes back to my impression that the modern American understanding of the Presidency is largely mythical, and bears little relation to the actual powers and limitations of the office. It's very difficult for such a worldview to produce serious criticism.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:03 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But criticism that deserves to be taken seriously? I sometimes wonder.
That must take considerable effort.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:18 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
That must take considerable effort.
You'd think. But in reality... Seriously, a lot of this stuff is based on the myth that Obama the shining sun king had ushered in a new age of wonders. When all he'd really done is signed a few easily reversible executive orders and talk up his legacy. So naturally Trump must be the sith emperor himself, laying waste to the nations of the earth. When all he's really done is rescind a few executive orders, sign a few others, and talk up his legacy.

Go ahead: Make a serious criticism of Trump in your own words. It would be a pleasant change of pace.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:06 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You'd think. But in reality... Seriously, a lot of this stuff is based on the myth that Obama the shining sun king had ushered in a new age of wonders. When all he'd really done is signed a few easily reversible executive orders and talk up his legacy. So naturally Trump must be the sith emperor himself, laying waste to the nations of the earth. When all he's really done is rescind a few executive orders, sign a few others, and talk up his legacy.

Go ahead: Make a serious criticism of Trump in your own words. It would be a pleasant change of pace.
The real damage is going to be done from his cabinet heads, the people chosen for being antithetical to the function of the department they're heading. You know, like a Secretary of Education who is anti-public education and an anti-environmental activist put in charge of the Environmental Protection Agency.

Also, appointing judges from the ranks of the Federalist Society.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:55 PM   #190
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Women gives Trump the finger, is fired.

I've been expecting this topic to appear in the Forum but I have yet to see it. If I've missed a relevant thread please just merge this to it.

Juli Briskman was riding a bicycle and encountered the Trump motorcade. She gave Trump the middle finger, an act that "went viral" in the social media. She was subsequently fired from her job for her action.

Her firing appears to me to be morally reprehensible. Her action was non-violent, was not linked to her job or her company in any manner, and represented her using her freedom to make a political statement.

Frankly I am surprised that the Forum members who have rigorously defended the "freedom of speech" of the Nazis and KKK have not already rushed to this women's defense. I use the quotes to indicate that in both incidents we are not discussing the 1st amendment freedom of speech relating to government restrictions but the more general use of this term. Her firing was probably legal; I am questioning its moral legitimacy.

Mod InfoMerged into the current thread
Posted By:TubbaBlubba

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Old 7th November 2017, 09:02 PM   #191
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I read that she made it her profile pic on Facebook or Twitter, and her contract has a social media policy prohibiting "obscenity."
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:15 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I read that she made it her profile pic on Facebook or Twitter, and her contract has a social media policy prohibiting "obscenity."
And still: here's one country boy who knows chicken **** when he smells it.
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:18 PM   #193
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If it's any consolation, I bet she'll end up with a better job than before.

Quote:
Frankly I am surprised that the Forum members who have rigorously defended the "freedom of speech" of the Nazis and KKK have not already rushed to this women's defense.
Has anyone suggested that the Nazis and KKK shouldn't be fired if discovered?

It's one thing to say that people, even those with abhorrent views have a right to get up on a soapbox in a public space and express those views without fear of violent retaliation. It's different to say that others cannot also exercise their own rights by choosing to not employ them.

Can you link to somebody saying that these people (Nazis, KKK) shouldn't be fired?
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:53 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If it's any consolation, I bet she'll end up with a better job than before.



Has anyone suggested that the Nazis and KKK shouldn't be fired if discovered?

It's one thing to say that people, even those with abhorrent views have a right to get up on a soapbox in a public space and express those views without fear of violent retaliation. It's different to say that others cannot also exercise their own rights by choosing to not employ them.

Can you link to somebody saying that these people (Nazis, KKK) shouldn't be fired?
As to your last line:
I quite believe they should be fired - from large cannons generally aimed towards space - or at least the upper atmosphere!!!!!
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:02 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If it's any consolation, I bet she'll end up with a better job than before.



Has anyone suggested that the Nazis and KKK shouldn't be fired if discovered?

It's one thing to say that people, even those with abhorrent views have a right to get up on a soapbox in a public space and express those views without fear of violent retaliation. It's different to say that others cannot also exercise their own rights by choosing to not employ them.

Can you link to somebody saying that these people (Nazis, KKK) shouldn't be fired?
You may recall a recent thread which debated the right of Google to fire an employee who used a company website to question whether women were as competent as men when it came to computer coding. I believe that our more conservative members argued that the firing of this employee was morally, and perhaps even legally, wrong. And that was an incident in which the employee's opinion was expressed at work and directly contradicted the personnel policies of his company. Unlike the private actions of the woman in this OP.

Unfortunately I cannot currently access the Charlottesville thread to find a more specific Nazi/KKK response to your challenge. But I made it very clear in my OP that I was not discussing the legal right of a company to fire an employee for almost any reason, but their moral right. And in that context I do not see a company rejecting an employe with violent, racist views as morally equivalent to that of firing an employee who simply gave the finger to Trump when his motorcade passed by.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:03 PM   #196
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Personally I'd promote anyone that shows such public disrespect for Trump.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:05 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I've been expecting this topic to appear in the Forum but I have yet to see it. If I've missed a relevant thread please just merge this to it.

Juli Briskman was riding a bicycle and encountered the Trump motorcade. She gave Trump the middle finger, an act that "went viral" in the social media. She was subsequently fired from her job for her action.

Her firing appears to me to be morally reprehensible. Her action was non-violent, was not linked to her job or her company in any manner, and represented her using her freedom to make a political statement.

Frankly I am surprised that the Forum members who have rigorously defended the "freedom of speech" of the Nazis and KKK have not already rushed to this women's defense. I use the quotes to indicate that in both incidents we are not discussing the 1st amendment freedom of speech relating to government restrictions but the more general use of this term. Her firing was probably legal; I am questioning its moral legitimacy.
Oh. OK, sure. I'll clarify:

Richard Spencer should not be subjected to violence because of his politics.

This woman should not be entitled to employment in spite of her politics.

HTH. HAND!
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:39 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I've been expecting this topic to appear in the Forum but I have yet to see it. If I've missed a relevant thread please just merge this to it
It was added to this one about criticism of trump being a fireable offence.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:27 AM   #199
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I think what she did was laudable, but I have no problem with her being fired for it. Actions have consequences, even actions we agree with.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:50 AM   #200
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This is what happens when you live in a country where employees have virtually no rights.
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