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Tags hurricanes , natural disasters , Puerto Rico incidents

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Old 27th September 2017, 05:27 PM   #41
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
*Sighs*

According to the CIA World Factbook 99.3% of the population has access to "indoor plumbing / sanitation facilities."

Also they have paved roads and electricity if you're just "wondering" about that as well.

And cell towers.

Well ... they used to, anyhow.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:50 PM   #42
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Saw a CBS report today logistics is severely hampered by the lack of cell service. They cannot get the trucks and truck drivers if they cannot call them. Only 20% of drivers reported back to work. Loads of supplies are still sitting on the docks, some from before Irma came through 3 weeks ago.
Communication is key. Every car/truck can charge a phone so working cell towers and gas are crucial to getting things where they need to go.

Local mayors are given sat phones, some air-dropped, for the time being. Supplies will go to them and they will distribute.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 27th September 2017 at 06:11 PM. Reason: added news link
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:57 PM   #43
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Time for PR, USVI, Marshall Islands and Guam to either become the 51st State or independent nations. If they really wanted to be treated like Americans they should be required to act like full Americans.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I didn't ask if PR is third world. I'm curious if some poor or rural don't have plumbing. If true, it doesn't make the place third world.

This persecution of curiosity is ridiculous.
I feel your pain, but I also think I understand your critics' reaction.

A lot of Americans have all sorts of outdated ideas about places that aren't America, or in the case of Puerto Rico, places that are America, but aren't states. It reveals a lot of misconceptions about the way the world lives.

The vast majority of people in the world have indoor plumbing. That probably wasn't true when you were growing up, but the world really has changed. I know I was stunned to see that their economic mainstay was pharmaceutical manufacturing. I didn't know what they did down there, but I didn't think it was that.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Saw a CBS report today logistics is severely hampered by the lack of cell service. They cannot get the trucks and truck drivers if they cannot call them. Only 20% of drivers reported back to work. Loads of supplies are still sitting on the docks, some from before Irma came through 3 weeks ago.
Communication is key. Every car/truck can charge a phone so working cell towers and gas are crucial to getting things where they need to go.

Local mayors are given sat phones, some air-dropped, for the time being. Supplies will go to them and they will distribute.
This illustrates what I think is wrong with what's happening down there. This is what FEMA does. Send emergency supplies Distribute things. Drive trucks. They normally do this by going to a place just outside of the disaster zone that has some comfortable hotels to stay in.

When 0% of the people have electrical power, that doesn't work.

And in my opinion, it's not good enough to say, "It's an island, so it's hard." Yes, it is. It is so hard that you can't do business as usual to get this one done.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:20 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Time for PR, USVI, Marshall Islands and Guam to either become the 51st State or independent nations. If they really wanted to be treated like Americans they should be required to act like full Americans.
While I don't agree with the tone or much of the subtext of your post, I do agree that it is far past the time to crap or get off the pot with all these territories and possessions. We're not Empire building anymore.

The problem is both major political parties have been counting Electoral Votes and Gerrymandering districts for so long neither of them have any real motivation to do anything that might upset that particular apple cart.
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Last edited by JoeBentley; 27th September 2017 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:24 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Time for PR, USVI, Marshall Islands and Guam to either become the 51st State or independent nations. If they really wanted to be treated like Americans they should be required to act like full Americans.

According to our courts they are "full Americans".

They pay taxes and fight in our armies.

They can't even legally renounce their U.S. citizenship without also renouncing their Puerto Rican citizenship. At least according to the U.S.

In what way do you think they are not?
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:40 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post

In what way do you think they are not?
They speak Spanish, and are therefore rapists and murderers. And some, I assume, are good people.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:44 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Time for PR, USVI, Marshall Islands and Guam to either become the 51st State or independent nations. If they really wanted to be treated like Americans they should be required to act like full Americans.
PR has had several referendums that supported requesting statehood. They have used the election process to make it clear that they would love to act like "full" Americans. It is doubtful that can happen without bipartisan support, and the GOP will not support any action that brings in two more Senators and a House member or two from what is expected to be a reliably Democratic constituency. It is not about what they may be "required" to do, it is what the rest of the country will let them do.


It seems like we really need to consider some pretty large military support. If the port can't handle much ships due to damage, get the Seabees and the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE) to fix it. Get the Air force to help get the radar and air traffic control working again. Use amphibious ships to unload supplies. Use the ACE to upgrade roads to the beaches and make temporary unloading facilities.

From what I am hearing, the situation down there is critically bad - worse than is being reported by a press fixated on who kneels at sports games.

This is a direct quote from a friend of a friend, a U.S. govvie employee who was evacuated yesterday:

Quote:
I can tell you the situation is dire, I was evacuated yesterday and there is no power no water no gas no internet or cell service. Few with landlines have intermittent service. The people have little access to food and what You can find has to be purchased with cash it with no power no ATMs no cash no food so it’s getting worse the people have resorted to stealing just to survive I was one of the lucky ones to work for the government and be evacuated but there’s much suffering and is going to go on for a long time to US government needs to send help now before it’s too late. People forget residents here are US citizens
There will now be places on the island that won't have electricity again for as much as a year.

No electricity to run the computers in the banks or the ATM machines, or swipe cards at the supermarket, or to run gas pumps. People are stealing food to survive, despite having money in the banks. The money in the bank is useless if you can't access it.

Hospitals are struggling to have enough power to run ventilators - I don't think they ever planned on using generators to run power for more than a few days. If those ventilators lose power, people die - right then and there. Even if they can find enough fuel, the backup gennies they have may not be designed to run continuously for months at a time - and they'll have to, if we don't kick into higher gear.

And, if they don't get the plumbing and water purification facilities going at least at a minimal rate, they'll get waterborne disease outbreaks. They're going to need those hospitals.

Last edited by crescent; 27th September 2017 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:52 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It seems like we really need to consider some pretty large military support. If the port can't handle much ships due to damage, get the Seabees and the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE) to fix it. Get the Air force to help get the radar and air traffic control working again. Use amphibious ships to unload supplies. Use the ACE to upgrade roads to the beaches and make temporary unloading facilities.
I wonder what kind of shape the former Roosevelt Roads Naval Station is in. It was only decommissioned in 2004 and the airstrip has been in use ever since as a smaller general aviation airport. It's got (had) a protected port deep enough to handle an aircraft carrier if need be.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:53 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It seems like we really need to consider some pretty large military support. If the port can't handle much ships due to damage, get the Seabees and the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE) to fix it. Get the Air force to help get the radar and air traffic control working again. Use amphibious ships to unload supplies. Use the ACE to upgrade roads to the beaches and make temporary unloading facilities.

From what I am hearing, the situation down there is critically bad - worse than is being reported by a press fixated on who kneels at sports games.

This is a direct quote from a friend of a friend, a U.S. govvie employee who was evacuated yesterday:



There will now be places on the island that won't have electricity again for as much as a year.

No electricity to run the computers in the banks or the ATM machines, or swipe cards at the supermarket, or to run gas pumps. People are stealing food to survive, despite having money in the banks. The money in the bank is useless if you can't access it.

Hospitals are struggling to have enough power to run ventilators - I don't think they ever planned on using generators to run power for more than a few days. If those ventilators lose power, people die - right then and there.
And they have. I read of at least one hospital that had patients who died when their diesel fuel ran out.

I read a report an hour or so ago about water being turned back on in San Juan. No details on how much of San Juan, or the state of either water treatment for drinking water or the state of sewage plants, but it's something. I know the ACE is down there working on things, but it just doesn't seem to be the kind of high priority it ought to be.
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Old 27th September 2017, 07:04 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
According to our courts they are "full Americans".

They pay taxes and fight in our armies.

They can't even legally renounce their U.S. citizenship without also renouncing their Puerto Rican citizenship. At least according to the U.S.

In what way do you think they are not?
When I wrote my post I was not aware that they were drafted just like all other Americans during WW2, Korea, Vietnam.

I guess they are true full Americans and deserve our full support.
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Old 27th September 2017, 07:50 PM   #53
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Much as I think PR should be a state, there has for a long time been a nationalist movement within the country that want (or they did want) independence rather that statehood. The political will for statehood or lack of it is not all coming from the mainland.
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Old 27th September 2017, 07:54 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
*Sighs*

According to the CIA World Factbook 99.3% of the population has access to "indoor plumbing / sanitation facilities."

Also they have paved roads and electricity if you're just "wondering" about that as well.
Thanks for that info - it answers my question. Your sigh is superfluous and condescending.

I visited Puerto Rico in the early 2000s for a week, between San Juan and the east coast. I liked it and the people very much. I've also been to American Samoa. Another fantastically beautiful place with wonderful people.
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:17 PM   #55
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CNN reports rapper Pitbull sends his private plane to transport cancer patients to the mainland.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/health...rnd/index.html
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:42 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I wonder what kind of shape the former Roosevelt Roads Naval Station is in. It was only decommissioned in 2004 and the airstrip has been in use ever since as a smaller general aviation airport. It's got (had) a protected port deep enough to handle an aircraft carrier if need be.
I saw one of these hospital ships parked in Baltimore back in the late 90's. It's massive. If one or more of these aren't on the way, there better be a damn good reason.

eta: USS Navy Comforter getting set to go from Norfolk
They need 3 more days to get it ready and 5 days transit. So, it is 8 days away still.

Quote:
On Tuesday, Federal Emergency Management Agency administrator Brock Long told reporters at the White House that it was dispatching the Navy hospital ship Comfort, a converted super tanker with 1,000 beds, 12 operating rooms, a CAT-scan, and radiology capabilities to Puerto Rico.


Last edited by Sherkeu; 27th September 2017 at 09:51 PM. Reason: added news link
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Old 28th September 2017, 01:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
This Thread is a disaster.
I know. Nobody's made a Paint Your Wagon reference yet
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Old 28th September 2017, 01:55 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
I know. Nobody's made a Paint Your Wagon reference yet
Because the name of the wind in Paint Your Wagon is Mariah.
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:07 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Because the name of the wind in Paint Your Wagon is Mariah.
In my world, it's a silent "h"
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Old 28th September 2017, 03:01 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I heard a piece on NPR this evening. No hospitals in Puerto Rico are connected to the grid. Many have closed. The ones that are open are running on backup generators. Virtually no doctors offices or clinics are open.

As best I can tell from news articles, there are very few places with running water. If that's accurate, that means three million people can't flush their toilets. That's a big problem.

I know we aren't supposed to politicize things. Seriously. It's stupid to look at every situation that arises and have the first thing in your head be "How does this affect the president?" However, in this case, it's fair. If news reports are to be believed, what is happening in Puerto Rico is a true crisis, and one that cannot be solved by ordinary measures. FEMA can send hundreds of people, but those people are laptop jockeys and haulers. They have rules, and regulations, and procedures.

What Puerto Rico needs is someone who can say, "We need a construction crane on a hilltop 20 miles Southeast of San Juan. If you can get it to San Juan, we'll have the road built by the time you get there. And keep track of expenses and we'll send you a check." They need someone to cut through regular order, throw the rules out the window if need be, and move Heaven and Earth to get the job done, drawing on the best military and civilian assets available to get the job done.

Only the president can make that happen, which means that if it isn't happening, it's the president's fault.

If things are half as bad as the sketchy news reports suggest, he really needs to get on the stick. This could be bad.
He made his statement on this

"Texas & Florida are doing great but Puerto Rico, which was already suffering from broken infrastructure & massive debt, is in deep trouble...It's old electrical grid, which was in terrible shape, was devastated. Much of the Island was destroyed, with billions of dollars.......owed to Wall Street and the banks which, sadly, must be dealt with. Food, water and medical are top priorities - and doing well. #FEMA"

It shows that his first priority is wall street banks.
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Old 28th September 2017, 03:05 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Time for PR, USVI, Marshall Islands and Guam to either become the 51st State or independent nations. If they really wanted to be treated like Americans they should be required to act like full Americans.
But we are going to keep them as they are, too useful for wallstreet to prey on to make them states no matter what they population wants.
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Old 28th September 2017, 03:08 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Much as I think PR should be a state, there has for a long time been a nationalist movement within the country that want (or they did want) independence rather that statehood. The political will for statehood or lack of it is not all coming from the mainland.
Not in recent years. The last referendum had a vastly overwhelming majority of the votes for statehood.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:25 AM   #63
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:26 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I saw one of these hospital ships parked in Baltimore back in the late 90's. It's massive. If one or more of these aren't on the way, there better be a damn good reason.

eta: USS Navy Comforter getting set to go from Norfolk
They need 3 more days to get it ready and 5 days transit. So, it is 8 days away still.




https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...6wvij8pjpg.jpg
This looks like a photoshop.
However, if the nursery ship is moving out...That's what we wanted.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:32 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
This looks like a photoshop.
No they really are that big. The USNS Comfort was moored for a few weeks next to the USS Harry S Truman, a Nimitz Class aircraft carrier I was stationed on for a few years, and they are one of the few ships that don't look like bathroom toys next to them.

The USNS Comfort and her sister ship the USNS Mercy are converted Sam Clemente class supertankers, 894 feet long.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:15 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
No they really are that big. The USNS Comfort was moored for a few weeks next to the USS Harry S Truman, a Nimitz Class aircraft carrier I was stationed on for a few years, and they are one of the few ships that don't look like bathroom toys next to them.

The USNS Comfort and her sister ship the USNS Mercy are converted Sam Clemente class supertankers, 894 feet long.
Impressively huge though if Wiki is to be believed, perhaps a little outdated.

Quote:
In mid-2004 Vice Admiral Michael L. Cowan, the Surgeon General and chief of the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery, said that the Comfort and Mercy should be retired. "They’re wonderful ships, but they’re dinosaurs. They were designed in the ’70s, built in the ’80s, and frankly, they’re obsolete".

Few, if any, options are presently being explored to replace them with a platform better suited to the mission at this time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy-class_hospital_ship
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:20 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I saw one of these hospital ships parked in Baltimore back in the late 90's. It's massive. If one or more of these aren't on the way, there better be a damn good reason.

eta: USS Navy Comforter getting set to go from Norfolk
They need 3 more days to get it ready and 5 days transit. So, it is 8 days away still.




https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...6wvij8pjpg.jpg
Considering that the devastation was predicted days in advance, it seems like this should have happened much earlier.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #68
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That's why I opined upthread about the feasibility of replacing them with more robust purpose built "Disaster Relief Ships" that retained the robust hospital facilities but included power plants, shallower drafts, water production facilities, and stores of disaster supplies.
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Old 28th September 2017, 11:19 AM   #69
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I just saw an on-site reporter say to the camera " It's heartbreaking! Come on over here -- look at this woman crying."

The very first time I saw this guy (Bill Weir, I think -- CNN) I had an intense dislike for him. Now it's verging on hatred as an example of the "wrong" way to do media coverage.
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Old 28th September 2017, 11:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Considering that the devastation was predicted days in advance, it seems like this should have happened much earlier.
Part of the problem here is it's difficult to predict just where such a vessel should go. While it's almost certain a large hurricane will cause a lot of destruction, predicting where that destruction will occur is next to impossible. So it's likewise almost impossible to set up the sailing orders in advance.

One question I had was: why does it take three full days from the time when the ship is given her orders until she actually sails? I suspect it's because even though the ship's in dock she's receiving only minimal maintenance with a skeleton crew. So the navy has to call up crew, stock up on food, and perhaps even load fuel and fresh water. They may even have to bring some systems back on-line and check them out because they've been shut down for a while.
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Last edited by Blue Mountain; 28th September 2017 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 28th September 2017, 11:57 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I just saw an on-site reporter say to the camera " It's heartbreaking! Come on over here -- look at this woman crying."

The very first time I saw this guy (Bill Weir, I think -- CNN) I had an intense dislike for him. Now it's verging on hatred as an example of the "wrong" way to do media coverage.
This is the kind of coverage I really hate. I know that images of individual suffering keep eyeballs on the tube, but it isn't really informative.
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Old 28th September 2017, 01:33 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Jones Act has been waived.

For 10 days.

So by the time they get harbor operations up to speed and enough infrastructure restored to make moving goods around the island anything close to routine it will have long expired.

And the residents will be back to paying extravagant prices for the goods they need.

Only this time they will be needing them to rebuild.

As empty gestures go this one was a chart topper.
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:21 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This is the kind of coverage I really hate. I know that images of individual suffering keep eyeballs on the tube, but it isn't really informative.
Reminds me of this:
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I AGREE
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:25 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
For 10 days.

So by the time they get harbor operations up to speed and enough infrastructure restored to make moving goods around the island anything close to routine it will have long expired.

And the residents will be back to paying extravagant prices for the goods they need.

Only this time they will be needing them to rebuild.

As empty gestures go this one was a chart topper.
What makes you think it won't be extended
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Old 28th September 2017, 02:32 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Part of the problem here is it's difficult to predict just where such a vessel should go. While it's almost certain a large hurricane will cause a lot of destruction, predicting where that destruction will occur is next to impossible. So it's likewise almost impossible to set up the sailing orders in advance.

One question I had was: why does it take three full days from the time when the ship is given her orders until she actually sails? I suspect it's because even though the ship's in dock she's receiving only minimal maintenance with a skeleton crew. So the navy has to call up crew, stock up on food, and perhaps even load fuel and fresh water. They may even have to bring some systems back on-line and check them out because they've been shut down for a while.
I expect that's correct; and it's not really the ship's crew that's the problem -- it's the medical staff. They probably have to come in from bases all over the place.
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Old 28th September 2017, 06:03 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I expect that's correct; and it's not really the ship's crew that's the problem -- it's the medical staff. They probably have to come in from bases all over the place.
Plus the medical supplies themselves, the best way to get a perspective to what is going on is to look at what was done for past disasters with those ships.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:03 PM   #77
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Today, Tom Bossert, Homeland Security Advisor, praised the government's response, and described it as "textbook".


Well, yes, Mr. Bossert. It is. Sadly, the situation isn't textbook.


As best I can tell from news reports, some hospitals and a small area around them have electricity, but other news articles still describe them scrounging to find diesel fuel to run their generators.
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Old 28th September 2017, 11:53 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Today, Tom Bossert, Homeland Security Advisor, praised the government's response, and described it as "textbook".
Well he would, wouldn't he ? When you praise your own actions then it's hardly a ringing endorsement.

OTOH I understand that the governor of Puerto Rico has given guarded praise to the White House response - IMO that carries more weight.
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Old 29th September 2017, 01:35 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Impressively huge though if Wiki is to be believed, perhaps a little outdated.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy-class_hospital_ship
That sounds more to me like the ship does not fit in with how modern conflicts work. Probably too large and a bit slow.

It's a dinosaur in so far as it was built with the cold war in mind, but that doesn't mean it won't be a very handy mobile hospital for the current crisis.
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Old 29th September 2017, 04:42 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well he would, wouldn't he ? When you praise your own actions then it's hardly a ringing endorsement.

OTOH I understand that the governor of Puerto Rico has given guarded praise to the White House response - IMO that carries more weight.
I don't think anyone could reasonably fault the magnitude of the government's response, and I think that's what we are seeing from the governor. The fact that his praise is "guarded" I think comes from judging the effectiveness of the response, rather than the magnitude.

I don't think it would be fair to criticize Trump or the government for not doing enough. I think it would be fair to judge them for not doing enough of the right things.
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