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#201 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
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Maybe Puerto Rico should ask for foreign aid: Denmark sending aid to U.S. Virgin Islands.
Spain might be willing to help Puerto Rico, and I'm pretty sure that the Cubans would, too (Cuba offered to help after Katrina), if they hadn't been hit hard by Irma. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#202 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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Get ready for Trump to go on a tirade about Mayor Cruz.
Power collapses in San Juan hospital with 2 patients being transferred out. Have requested support from @FEMA_Brock. NOTHING! @POTUS |
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#203 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
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This is wildly exaggerated, of course! My translation: "Danish muscles rebuild St Croix – the Americans are standing by and watching them"
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#204 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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Quote:
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"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#205 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: N.Cal/S.Or
Posts: 6,211
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I'm a little nauseated to have read that FEMA's otherwise well performing director Brock Long has said the agency is "filtering out the political nonsense"... AKA San Juan Mayor Cruz.
![]() I think he drank the Kool-Ade. ![]() |
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---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000. |
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#206 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,424
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"they had these beautiful soft towels, very good towels, and I came in and there was a crowd of a lot of people and they were screaming and they were loving everything."
You couldn't make it up! |
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#207 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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This tweet contains a two minute video made by some vets volunteering as relief workers on the west side of PR.
It's worth a listen. They present a slightly different picture than the Trump administration does. |
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"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#208 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,580
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The Vegas gunman seems to have pushed Puerto Rico out of the headlines. And of course how can the American people be expected to pay attention to a humanitarian situation when there's an ongoing national anthem crisis?
I just look at what happened there, and I wonder why we can't do better. The people on the ground are, by all accounts, working very hard, but either there aren't enough of them or they aren't being used effectively. The outcomes just aren't acceptable. I can understand people in remote mountain villages being cut off at this late date, but there are people in urban areas still without drinking water. Only 15% of the island has had electrical power restored. |
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#209 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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There's also the massive wildfire in California now.
Puerto Rico's lack of statehood really hurts it here. If there were EC votes at stake, there'd be a more robust response. Being American in name only comes with a myriad of problems, like only 54% of Americans knew Puerto Ricans are American, and the debt crisis they were going through before has many people looking at them jaundiced eyes. |
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#210 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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And now they're descending into comic book villainy.
JUST IN: Trump administration asks Congress for $4.9 billion loan to help Puerto Rico with short-term liquidity issues - official |
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#212 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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If that's an A+ performance from the Trump Administration, I'd hate to see what a C- would be.
I presume with all the other stuff, California fires, Las Vegas, the NFL kneeling, the Tillerson moron comments, allegations that the White House is a daycare centre and so on, that several million Americans being without power and potable water has been shoved off the front pages and out of the nation's consciousness. |
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#213 |
Designated Hitter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On in memory
Posts: 3,155
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My friend Gilbert (pronounced Jilbert) from PR translated for another PR friend who works in immigration. They do have language "tests" to sniff out possible illegal immigrants. They might hold up objects that are pronounced or named differently in PR than in other parts of the Spanish speaking world.
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T-Mobile customer service sucks. Happiness should not be a zero sum game. Did I mention T-Mobile customer service sucks? |
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#214 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,340
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With the thousands of military and other FEMA people in PR, one wonders what they are doing. FEMA is out and about helping people with paperwork.
![]() I don't understand the distribution problem. MSNBC showed that the roads were cleared at least to a town that needed food and water, but all they got were the FEMA paper pushers. Ryan in the press conference this morning said the additional loan to PR was because they lost their income base: No jobs, no income. No income, no taxes. |
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#215 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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#216 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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#217 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,580
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I'm trying to be a bit of an optimist here, so work with me. Maybe this loan thing is not nearly as bad as it seems.
The way I see it, the chance of Puerto Rico ever paying off its debt is pretty darned close to zero. Bankruptcy is pretty much inevitable. By giving them money in the form of a loan, when the creditors get paid off whatever tiny fraction they will get, the US government gets a little bit more than they otherwise would have, while other bondholders get a little bit less. Trump may have just swiped a tiny bit of money from Wall Street while dishing out some aid. Or would that be too good to be true? |
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#218 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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#219 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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It's too good to be true.
![]() The "vulture" funds will get their money paid in full, the people of Puerto Rico will continue to suffer substandard infrastructure and to be treated as third or fourth class citizens. If the GOP stay in control for the next decade, I wouldn't be too shocked to find some kind of jiggery-pokery going on whereby people from Puerto Rico (and other US territories) ARE US citizens but they have rather fewer rights to live and work elsewhere in the US than citizens of the "proper" US. |
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#220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,315
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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#221 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,580
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#222 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 16,267
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#223 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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#224 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,382
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#225 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,972
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#226 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,580
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Nor is it the fault of the people who currently don't have clean water.
Well, to be fair, it is a democracy, so there is a certain level of blame that belongs to the citizens, but that's kind of a long term issue, as opposed to a rather more short term problem which is that 40% of the people still don't have access to a drinking water supply that we in the 21st century would consider a minimum level for civilization. I just can't see how anyone can look at the outcome in Puerto Rico and give the US government a passing grade on the response. |
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#227 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,340
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Let's blame those brown people, everyone knows they have corrupt politicians. Heck, surely some of them managed to shift PR's wealth into their own pockets. Or maybe they went wild spending on unnecessary infrastructure... oh wait, can't be that. Should we look for crony capitalism like the way Bush paid his cronies to rebuild Iraq?
Just where is all that borrowed wasted money? Puerto Rico's crisis: How did it get so bad? Yes, there was some government overspending but why was that? Was everyone getting tax breaks?
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Then there was this, after PR was allowed to issue bonds, then Congress tanked PR's economic base, Congress also did this:
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Here's a more recent article that adds a bit more to the picture. So let's see. The Congress votes in tax breaks for pharmaceutical companies operating in PR. Then they vote those out about the same time as the 2008 economic collapse brought on by the financial companies getting greedy and over-extended. (Wait what? Overextended debt.... ) Prior to that:
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#228 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,466
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I absolutely refuse to believe we would be having this discussion if an actual proper state in the US, even Hawaii so no one can play "But it's an island!" card, was almost fully and completely without basic utilities almost a month after a hurricane.
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"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en |
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#229 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,972
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Race has nothing to do with it. White people are perfectly capable of electing corrupt and incompetent governments as well. And yes, Puerto Rico's government is corrupt and incompetent. You may object to me saying that all you want to, but it will remain true. And despite all the other excuses you make, this will also remain the heart of the problem.
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But that doesn't deprive Puerto Rico's government of any funds. As for the change in the law, I find it amusing that you're upset that Congress STOPPED giving big pharma a special tax break unavailable elsewhere. It's almost like incentives matter, and lower taxes can stimulate an economy. Who would have thunk? |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#230 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,466
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But they paid over 3.75 billion yearly into the US Treasury in other taxes including but not limited to import/export taxes, Federal commodity taxes, and federal payroll taxes. They also pay into Social Security and Medicare, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.
The United States is not a membership club the Puerto Rico hasn't been paying it's "dues" to. And remember they have zero representation on a Federal Government level. No electoral votes for President, no voting presence in Congress. And as an entity the US has generally had a problem with "Taxation without Representation." I remember that being a thing once. |
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"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en |
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#231 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,466
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Oh and on topic is "You get more from the government than you receive" really something you want to bring into the conversation? Because I've got news from you most of the actual states, just to function normally without a disaster, take in a lot more in assistance from the Federal government than they pay into it. Only about 15 or so (the exact number varies depending on exact definitions) of the 50 states give more to the Federal government than they get back.
So if a hurricane flattens Mississippi (which gets 40% more from the Federal Government in a normal, non-emergency year than it pays into it in taxes) people would holding that over their head? |
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"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en |
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#232 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,580
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Not for 47% of the people.1
But I must agree with Joe Bentley, and I'll go farther. In the 21st century, the notion of a United States "territory" should be non-existent. US citizens should have full rights and responsibilities of US citizens, instead of living in some sort of gray quasi-citizen area. Territories should either be made into states, incorporated into an existing state, or be made independent. 1 Romney, Mitt. 2012. |
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#233 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#234 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#235 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,466
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I agree this whole situation is waaaay past it's "What's the point again?" date.
Over 3 and a half million Americans live in Puerto Rico. That's more than live in 21 of the States. Almost 700,000 live in the District of Columbia which is more than live in Wyoming or Vermont and it has the 19th highest Federal Tax rate despite not having a representative in Congress (at least not one with any power) which just strikes me as all kinds of not right. We shouldn't have over 4 million Americans living in some sort of stateless limbo land. Puerto Rico is certainly large and organized enough to be it's own state. It Hawaii can function as a state in the middle of the vast Pacific ocean so far away from anything it might as well be on the moon I think we can handle a larger, more populated island much closer. The District of Columbia is a little weirder. I get the logic behind it, not putting the seat of the Federal Government in a state so the state can't overly influence the Federal Government and it made since back two hundred years ago when D.C. was in the middle of a vast nothing and the our system was more skewed to state and away from Federal power than it is now. But now I don't see Maryland or Virginia being able to strong arm the Federal Government if the citizens of D.C are just treated as citizens of one of them. The rest of the inhabited islands; Guam, the Northern Marianas, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands... maybe not pure statehood but lump them all together politically into a "American Outlaying Island" group and give them a couple of Senators a few Representatives to share between them at least. Maybe because this is because I, despite my small "L" libertarian leanings just don't have a hard on for states having all that much political power anymore. |
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"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en |
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#236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,972
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#237 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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Well that's what the UK tends to do when citizens in overseas territories look like emigrating to the home country en-masse following a political upheaval or natural disaster.
If it looks like a couple of million Puerto Ricans are suddenly going to pitch up in the lower 48 then I can easily envisage a reassessment of Puerto Ricans' status |
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#238 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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Whatever the reason for Puerto Rico's debt (and the link below indicates that disparity in federal funding is a factor in addition to those already mentioned), here the US is, nearly a month after a hurricane hit the island and a significant proportion of the population is without power and water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto...social_funding The Trump Administration is awarding itself an A+ for its performance. I suggest that if the situation were reversed and a Democratic President, Senate and House were in charge that the GOP wouldn't be giving them a similar grade. Sadly Puerto Rico has slipped out of the international news, I don't know what extent it continues to be reported on in the US, which means that free from the glare of publicity the failures will be ignored and the Puerto Ricans will continue to suffer. I cannot see a similarly large group of US citizens being ignored in a similar way if they were a state. |
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#239 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,466
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We have millions of Americans without basic utilities. Maybe fighting over which "side" gets how many points added or taken off their score can wait for a while?
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"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en |
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#240 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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