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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , Democratic primaries , dnc , Donna Brazile , election controversies , hillary clinton

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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:11 PM   #161
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't care if they receive public funds. Giving your money away doesn't entitle you to post hoc non negotiated terms.
Well then I suggest the RNC and DNC end all primary activities and simply select their candidate at the conventions.

If they aren't going to act with transparency and openness to inquiries regarding possible unfair partisonship then they are a farce.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:12 PM   #162
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Well then I suggest the RNC and DNC end all primary activities and simply select their candidate at the conventions.

If they aren't going to act with transparency and openness to inquiries regarding possible unfair partisonship then they are a farce.
I think they will ignore your suggestion and be just fine.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:13 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nice of posters to break it up.

Hillary gets joint control over staffing etc... signed in 2015.

And the Clinton fanatics want to pretend it was General only. Well in that case CERTAINLY, they signed similar agreements with the other candidates, right?

Rigged, but kudos for the dead end kid's apologists rushing to the corrupt **** bags defense.
And yet still not one iota of evidence of any rigging, why am I not surprised there.

Let me put this bluntly.

Opportunity to do wrong is not equal to actual wrongdoing.

How about instead of point your finger and scream, "But they could have" you try showing that they actually did.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:15 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I can't even begin to speculate how the DNC's decisions and actions between 9/2015 and the DNC Convention in 2016 may have favored Hillary over Bernie and O'Malley.

That's why I'd like to see an IG or independent investigator look into the matter.

Such an investigation would restore my faith in the Democratic Party and reverse the "I" over my voter registration.
"I haven't got any evidence of them doing it, and I can't think of how they could have done it, but I know they did it, so it it needs to be investigated!"
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:17 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Well then I suggest the RNC and DNC end all primary activities and simply select their candidate at the conventions.

If they aren't going to act with transparency and openness to inquiries regarding possible unfair partisonship then they are a farce.
Why exactly should they need to tell you exactly who is helping to fund them, what budget restrictions they have them on, and how they make their hires? What right do you have to know that?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:19 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think they will ignore your suggestion and be just fine.
And that will tell me I was right to leave the Democratic Party.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:20 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
And that will tell me I was right to leave the Democratic Party.

Sounds win win.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:21 PM   #168
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Why exactly should they need to tell you exactly who is helping to fund them, what budget restrictions they have them on, and how they make their hires? What right do you have to know that?
Do you believe that the organization that selects who will be one of the two major candidates for President of the United States should be transparent and open to legitimate inquiries by The People?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:23 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Do you believe that the organization that selects who will be one of the two major candidates for President of the United States should be transparent and open to legitimate inquiries by The People?
No.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:40 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We now know that Hillary exercised undo and undeserved influence over DNC decisions long before she had the right to do so.

Now we need to find out what these decisions were since 9/2015 and if any of them favored Hillary in ANY way over O'Malley or Sanders.

Do you oppose such an investigation?
Investigate all you want. Just like I said, you got nothing. But that's not stopping you from trying to imply you do despite not being able to specify a single thing that actually had an impact on the primary results.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:41 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Do you believe that the organization that selects who will be one of the two major candidates for President of the United States should be transparent and open to legitimate inquiries by The People?
Yes. Very few inquiries would be legitimate - those pertaining to charitable status, perhaps. No-one but a libertarian could be against legitimate enquiries.

What legitimate enquiry are you interested in making?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:44 PM   #172
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Speaking of unfair, holy ****** Forty years of false allegations against Clinton, 11 Benghazi hearings on the taxpayer's dime, the whole Russian interference in the election, the list is enormous.

Anyone stupidly whining that something was unfair to Sanders does indeed have big ugly blinders on.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:46 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We now know that Hillary exercised undo and undeserved influence ...
Who the hell are you to say what influence Hillary Clinton is due or deserves after a lifetime in Democratic Politics? Unbeknown to you, apparently, who seem to think the DNC kept her covered-up until the last moment.

Ex-Member of the Democratic Party my arse.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:48 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Who the hell are you to say what influence Hillary Clinton is due or deserves after a lifetime in Democratic Politics? Unbeknown to you, apparently, who seem to think the DNC kept her covered-up until the last moment.

Ex-Member of the Democratic Party my arse.
So now you're calling me a "liar" because I want to make sure the DNC stayed impartial and fair while giving the Hillary extreme influence in their decisions in exchange for big bucks, since September 2015?

Wow, I must have REALLY hit a nerve.

Last edited by Hercules56; 3rd November 2017 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:48 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I can't even begin to speculate how the DNC's decisions and actions between 9/2015 and the DNC Convention in 2016 may have favored Hillary over Bernie and O'Malley.

That's why I'd like to see an IG or independent investigator look into the matter.

Such an investigation would restore my faith in the Democratic Party and reverse the "I" over my voter registration.
So because you don't get it, someone should investigate because surely none of the rest of us gets it?

I do believe there's a fallacy for that.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:49 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
"I haven't got any evidence of them doing it, and I can't think of how they could have done it, but I know they did it, so it it needs to be investigated!"
Better than I said it.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:51 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So because you don't get it, someone should investigate because surely none of the rest of us gets it?

I do believe there's a fallacy for that.
The story broke yesterday.

Let's see what else we have learned by this time next month.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:51 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Do you believe that the organization that selects who will be one of the two major candidates for President of the United States should be transparent and open to legitimate inquiries by The People?
You think there's something you don't know. But pretty much everything has been transparent. The CT forum is that way >>>>>
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:54 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You think there's something you don't know. But pretty much everything has been transparent. The CT forum is that way >>>>>
You trust the Democrats to be totally honest, pure and fair.

But they have power and power corrupts.

So I want an investigation. I don't see what the problem is.

You appear to be against looking into this issue. I wonder why that is.

I feel like I'm talking to a Trump supporter who believes any and all allegations of collussion with the Russians, Wikileaks or hackers is nothing but "fake news".
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:55 PM   #180
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.... As for anointing Clinton: [pending permission to quote another person from another forum].

Friend has given permission: I'll just put this quote here from a friend on another forum:
Quote:
... but it's a *********** bizarre construct to think that the conclusion would NOT be that the former very popular senator, very popular recent Secretary of State, who served the very popular current president, who had a background in public policy law focusing on helping poor children, would be the best candidate. No one came near her qualifications. Biden was probably the closest they had, and he had nothing like the foreign policy chops, and had his own issues to boot, god knows.
She's more articulate than I am.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:56 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
.

So I want an investigation. I don't see what the problem is.
The problem is you fail to provide a reason that provides a legal recourse for an investigation.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:56 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
You trust the Democrats to be totally honest, pure and fair.

But they have power and power corrupts.

So I want an investigation. I don't see what the problem is.

You appear to be against looking into this issue. I wonder why that is.

I feel like I'm talking to a Trump supporter who believes any and all allegations of collussion with the Russians, Wikileaks or hackers is nothing but "fake news".
Ginger: Investigate all you want.
CT believer: You appear to be against looking into this issue.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:58 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a difference between how people think the party should be run, and how people think the party is being run.

Personally I think parties should be run however they want. If you don't like it, take control or form a new party. But it seems like in the last presidential campaign there was a substantial mismatch between how registered Democrats thought the party was being run, and how it was actually being run.
I'm not all that clear on how the democrats tilted the playing field for Hillary, but I wonder whether things might have been better if the republicans had done the same for any of their qualified candidates.

In the end, we've gotten the most incompetent, unqualified head of state ever elected... at least in my memory.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:58 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The story broke yesterday.

Let's see what else we have learned by this time next month.
The story you speak of is nothing new. Where were you during the primary? Not paying attention apparently.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:02 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Speaking of unfair, holy ****** Forty years of false allegations against Clinton, 11 Benghazi hearings on the taxpayer's dime, the whole Russian interference in the election, the list is enormous.

Anyone stupidly whining that something was unfair to Sanders does indeed have big ugly blinders on.
It rather takes a deserved spotlight off Sanders's actual achievement in getting the vote he did. I doubt he got much from a party he'd spent a career slagging-off, but I suspect he intercepted the new blood, who felt no great pull from Hillary Clinton.

I have faith in the Democratic Party to renew itself, make the generational transition, and usher in thirty years of power.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:02 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Do you believe that the organization that selects who will be one of the two major candidates for President of the United States should be transparent and open to legitimate inquiries by The People?
No more than any other business or organisation, private or public.

Look, other than for the very top jobs (i.e. cabinet positions), you don't get to see how the Government Departments select their employees. You don't get to see where the funding of most organisations come from, and you certainly don't get to see if they are on any budget restrictions.

As long as what they are doing is transparent, then it doesn't matter what is going on behind the curtain. The Reality is that the DNC has very little to do with the Primaries. I know that the Bernie and Trump supporters want this to be different do that can point at Clinton and scream "Witch!", but reality is different to their demented dreams. When it comes to the Primaries, the DNC's list of jobs is strictly limited.

* They set up the Official Debates (was done prior to this deal).

* They keep an up-to-date database of Democratic Voters and for a price allow the campaigns access. The Sanders' Campaign lost access to this for a day after it was discovered that one of their people was using the database inappropriately, and they were made to tighten their security around it before access was returned.

* They are responsible for introducing and basic information of each of their candidates in that they send out information about who each candidate it and a blurb about them.

* Filing papers send to them by the campaigns for any Election based processes.

* Organising the Democratic Party Nation Conference.

What they aren't responsible for during the Primaries:

* Candidate promotion. They aren't responsible for promoting any candidates, this is the job of the Campaigns.

* Media Support. Again, that's the Campaigns's job.

* Fund Raising. Campaign's Job again.

* Filling out or getting the Campaigns to send them their paper work on time for filing.

* Maintaining State Voter Registrations records.

Now if you can show how they did their jobs in any way that benefited or gave an advantage to Clinton over the others, go for it, you'll be the first person to be able to show how it was done.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:04 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I think it is very much a mistake for the party apparatus to be under the control of a candidate who has not yet won the nomination (or is not the sitting President). Is it against the law? I doubt that very much. But on its face, it is certainly undesirable.

It all has to do with not burning the other candidates supporters. Nobody likes losing, but people really hate losing when they think the other side cheated to win. It makes them less willing to bury the hatchet. Warren's comment indicates that quite a few people are still angry.

Big changes are coming to the DNC as a result of this, I guarantee you.
I usually disagree with you, but I think that you have a good point here, up until your prediction. Maybe changes will come, maybe not, but the feelings of being cheated seem likely.

On the other hand, back in the days of the smoke filled rooms selecting candidates, a Trump would never make it out the gate. And that would be better. Used to be that parties stood for something, but not so much any more. Trump is not a Republican or a conservative. He's just Trump.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:12 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ginger: Investigate all you want.
CT believer: You appear to be against looking into this issue.

I said I want the DNC to investigate with an IG or outside consultant.

Do you have a problem with the DNC looking into this issue and reporting to the public their findings?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:17 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I said I want the DNC to investigate with an IG or outside consultant.

Do you have a problem with the DNC looking into this issue and reporting to the public their findings?
I do.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:19 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It rather takes a deserved spotlight off Sanders's actual achievement in getting the vote he did. I doubt he got much from a party he'd spent a career slagging-off, but I suspect he intercepted the new blood, who felt no great pull from Hillary Clinton.

I have faith in the Democratic Party to renew itself, make the generational transition, and usher in thirty years of power.
Sadly I fear the growth of the liberal party that showed such promise as young people registered as Democrats in 2016 will be destroyed by this effectively marketed message, the Democrats are old and corrupt. And sadly, the Democratic leadership still doesn't get how to get a counter-message out.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:21 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm not all that clear on how the democrats tilted the playing field for Hillary ...
Against Sanders they didn't. He did that himself by spending his political life outside the Democratic Party slagging it off.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:22 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I said I want the DNC to investigate with an IG or outside consultant.

Do you have a problem with the DNC looking into this issue and reporting to the public their findings?
What is it about "investigate all you want" that you think excludes your fantasy investigation?

Why don't you just buy a copy and curl up with Brazile's book? She had access to everything as temporary DNC chair and just published an exposť on the party.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:25 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Against Sanders they didn't. He did that himself by spending his political life outside the Democratic Party slagging it off.
And maybe, just maybe, some of us felt his one issue campaign and his easily attacked socialism did not represent the candidate we wanted to put forth in the 2016 election.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:33 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Trouble is that they aren't. The deal that was signed was in regards to the DNC's operations during the General Election, not the Party Primaries, in fact it specifically excluded the Primaries and allowed others to make the same agreements with the DNC. Sanders' Campaign was in fact offered the same deal and turned it down because they determined that it didn't fit with their funding model.
It is stated in the article that Clinton offered to bail out the broke DNC in exchange for the control she wanted. She gave them $20 million.

Are there any laws regarding campaign financing in a primary? It says she siphoned money from the Victory Fund as well as cash that should have stayed with the states she supposedly raised money for. If so how does she account for those donations? Maybe she doesn't have to?

According to Brazile she was able to go beyond the $2,700 limit per donor because money offered to the states can be much higher.

I don't pretend to know how this all works, just looking for comments.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 08:38 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sadly I fear the growth of the liberal party that showed such promise as young people registered as Democrats in 2016 will be destroyed by this effectively marketed message, the Democrats are old and corrupt. And sadly, the Democratic leadership still doesn't get how to get a counter-message out.
That doesn't augur well for the leadership, who are, lets face it, getting on a bit and haven't been performing terribly well of late.The Old Guard are on the way out, and the New Guard will be different.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:23 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You have no idea what that word means, do you?

Pointing out hypocrisy is not whataboutism.
They overlap heavily. Whataboutism is often hypocritical.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:47 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Who the hell are you to tell private organisations what they should do?
To be honest, that's a private organisation which the public has a huge legitimate interest in, as it helps shape the policies of the land. You can't compare this to a car dealership, a lacrosse club or the Backshrub County Association for the Preservation of Historical Aprons.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:49 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
...rushing to the corrupt **** bags defense.
I haven't seen evidence that corruption was involved
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:46 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And yet still not one iota of evidence of any rigging, why am I not surprised there.

.
You are not surprised because you are not even trying to review this objectively.

Brazille has discussed the evidence in detail, and Warren has flat out said it was rigged.

Secret agreement selling out decisions to the Corrupt Clinton Clan. You disagree? Take it up with the former head of the DNC
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:49 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You are not surprised because you are not even trying to review this objectively.

Brazille has discussed the evidence in detail, and Warren has flat out said it was rigged.

Secret agreement selling out decisions to the Corrupt Clinton Clan. You disagree? Take it up with the former head of the DNC
It is on them to make a convincing case and they failed. We don't have to take anything up with them.
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