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Tags shooting incidents , Texas incidents

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Old 6th November 2017, 02:44 AM   #201
The Great Zaganza
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But US gun culture won't change on its own.
As with plenty of cases in the past, new laws came first.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:47 AM   #202
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According to news reports, Kelley, who was given a dishonorable discharge, a twelve-month confinement and a reduction in rank x 2, to basic airman, for assaulting his wife and child, dropped his weapon at the scene of the crime.

He made off at 95 mph (kph?) with two local citizens in hot pursuit, including a 'Johnnie Langendorff', who said he stayed in contact with police during the chase.

Kelley veered off the road into a ditch, Langendorff took aim, even though he wasn't sure whether Kelley was conscious, or not, and shot him dead.

He is being hailed as a 'hero'.

But is vigilantism heroic, when the danger had passed and the perpetrator had dropped his weapon?

Well, maybe it will be argued it was 'justifiable homicide', but far better IMV would have been to take Kelley to trial and death row, the proper way.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:48 AM   #203
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Yet again this shows the problem is the failure to be well regulated. Keep guns away from criminals, mentally ill, angry people and youths and there would be few problems. That is why there are few shootings in the rest of the western world, no matter what the number and type of guns is. Only the USA failed to keep control of who has the guns.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:51 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But US gun culture won't change on its own.
As with plenty of cases in the past, new laws came first.
True, but if the expectation is that any restriction in gun ownership and/of usage will result in an immediate reduction in gun deaths then I think that's unrealistic. Indeed the failure to immediately reduce gun deaths to near zero will IMO be used by second amendment advocates to demonstrate that such restrictions only act against "responsible" gun owners and should be repealed immediately.

Unfortunately at the moment it seems to be a chicken and egg situation. It's possible that the US could be like Queensland in Australia and that a change to the gun laws could result in a change in gun culture but there's also the risk that the gun lobby is sufficiently influential that no change to laws or culture is practical.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:54 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yet again this shows the problem is the failure to be well regulated. Keep guns away from criminals, mentally ill, angry people and youths and there would be few problems. That is why there are few shootings in the rest of the western world, no matter what the number and type of guns is. Only the USA failed to keep control of who has the guns.
This one in particular is problematical IMO. Diagnosis is often subjective, mental illness isn't necessarily a steady state (a person could be perfectly fine almost all the time) and can respond well to treatment.

Should someone be denied access to firearms because of a diagnosis years and years ago when they have responded to treatment whereas someone who carefully conceals their condition is allowed to own firearms ?
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:55 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That said, one of the things that has changed in my 15 years on the board is that I no longer think that it's just a matter of controlling access to guns. Like Darat I think that there is a cultural dimension to this which, combined with easy access to guns results in the unusually high death toll in the US.
I mostly agree with this. I have been around guns for my entire life. Even had a couple of hunting rifles in my youth. Was taught at a very early age to respect them and practice good safety.

What has changed? One reason is gangs, but I think there are other factors involved.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:56 AM   #207
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For a start, I would be happy with forcing the NRA to quote the entire 2nd Amendment in all their communications and on all their plaques etc.
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Old 6th November 2017, 02:56 AM   #208
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If only those teachers were armed, if only those theater ushers were armed. If only that church pastor was armed. If only everyone were armed.

One of my friends last night said "It'l soon be like the Wild West" but even in 1880 Tombstone you had to surrender your weapons to the sheriff when entering town. It's not just heading for the Wild West it's already there.
Background checks? Sorry, too much trouble.
Registration? Sorry, the only one allowed to keep lists of gun owners is the NRA.
Ban on non-brokered private sales? Sorry, can’t prevent ol' Uncle Joe from passing his gun on to his perfectly adjusted nephew.
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Old 6th November 2017, 03:31 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to news reports, Kelley, who was given a dishonorable discharge, a twelve-month confinement and a reduction in rank x 2, to basic airman, for assaulting his wife and child, dropped his weapon at the scene of the crime.

He made off at 95 mph (kph?) with two local citizens in hot pursuit, including a 'Johnnie Langendorff', who said he stayed in contact with police during the chase.

Kelley veered off the road into a ditch, Langendorff took aim, even though he wasn't sure whether Kelley was conscious, or not, and shot him dead.

He is being hailed as a 'hero'.

But is vigilantism heroic, when the danger had passed and the perpetrator had dropped his weapon?

Well, maybe it will be argued it was 'justifiable homicide', but far better IMV would have been to take Kelley to trial and death row, the proper way.
I think you'll find that Johnnie Langendorff did no more than allow a member of the community into his truck and pursued Kelly until he crashed, they then led the police to the spot.

The member of the community was the one who had engaged Kelly earlier. It's safe to assume that he/she didn't know how many guns the murdering bastard had with him.

So, to summarise, Langendorff put himself in the way of extreme danger and allowed his vehicle to be used as a pursuit vehicle to carry an armed citizen who may have killed the animal who had just killed 26 and wounded 20. He did this unarmed.

If that isn't some form of herioic act, I don't know what is?

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Old 6th November 2017, 03:42 AM   #210
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This ^^^
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Old 6th November 2017, 03:52 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
This one in particular is problematical IMO. Diagnosis is often subjective, mental illness isn't necessarily a steady state (a person could be perfectly fine almost all the time) and can respond well to treatment.

Should someone be denied access to firearms because of a diagnosis years and years ago when they have responded to treatment whereas someone who carefully conceals their condition is allowed to own firearms ?
No. I am just summarising those who should not have guns without going into details. For example, a fraud conviction is not a bar, but a robbery is. Angry people are those who commit assaults, domestic violence or disturbances whilst drunk. There may be an overlap with mental illness in those cases.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:07 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If only those teachers were armed, if only those theater ushers were armed. If only that church pastor was armed. If only everyone were armed.

You're right! If only that psycho hadn't been …
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:09 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to news reports, Kelley, who was given a dishonorable discharge, a twelve-month confinement and a reduction in rank x 2, to basic airman, for assaulting his wife and child, dropped his weapon at the scene of the crime.
Not a dishonorable discharge, Bad Conduct discharge not dishonorable.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:09 AM   #214
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Changing US gun laws is unrealistic. The Guardian has attempted to summarise them here;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/in...-united-states

Here is a FAQ on the legislation required just to have a CCW in Texas;

https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/faqs/index.htm

The UK has a Firearms Act 1968, 60 sections with a few amendments and that is it for the whole country (NI excluded).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

Like the number of guns, the number of laws and regulations has got out of control and no one can get it back under control. The only way to have control by legislation is one law covering the whole USA which simply regulates who can have a what weapons, registration etc and that is not going to happen.

The only thing the USA can do is accept the mess it made and learn to live with regular massacres.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:11 AM   #215
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Mod WarningVixen & Rolfe - take your personal animosity with one another elsewhere.
Posted By:Darat
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:14 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not a dishonorable discharge, Bad Conduct discharge not dishonorable.
What's the difference? Is a Bad Conduct discharge honorable?
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:18 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to news reports, Kelley, who was given a dishonorable discharge, a twelve-month confinement and a reduction in rank x 2, to basic airman, for assaulting his wife and child, dropped his weapon at the scene of the crime.

He made off at 95 mph (kph?) with two local citizens in hot pursuit, including a 'Johnnie Langendorff', who said he stayed in contact with police during the chase.

Kelley veered off the road into a ditch, Langendorff took aim, even though he wasn't sure whether Kelley was conscious, or not, and shot him dead.

He is being hailed as a 'hero'.

But is vigilantism heroic, when the danger had passed and the perpetrator had dropped his weapon?

Well, maybe it will be argued it was 'justifiable homicide', but far better IMV would have been to take Kelley to trial and death row, the proper way.
Citizens defending each other and themselves is a way to cope with an inability to modify the laws, number or guns and culture. It is every man for himself as US society is far too fractured to allow the level of cooperation needed to get the USA to be able to control guns like the rest of the western world can.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:24 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Citizens defending each other and themselves is a way to cope with an inability to modify the laws, number or guns and culture. It is every man for himself as US society is far too fractured to allow the level of cooperation needed to get the USA to be able to control guns like the rest of the western world can.
I was disconcerted to learn the usual pastor and his assistant both carry guns to the service.

What is the world coming to, when reverends have to arm themselves for a sermon? No doubt preaching 'peace' and 'turn the other cheek'.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:27 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not a dishonorable discharge, Bad Conduct discharge not dishonorable.
I'm not going to argue with that as it's difficult to find the answer online, but a conviction in a civilian court for domestic violence would make one disqualified for a long time, if not for life, I think.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:28 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The only thing the USA can do is accept the mess it made and learn to live with regular massacres.

I take your point about the complexity of the legislation, but I don't think that's the main issue. The main issue is, as you said, the culture and the mentality of the people.

It's quite an education, reading the posts on this and similar threads. I still have trouble getting my head round the outlook of people who post about the glories of the gun culture, but I at least have a better appreciation of the problem.

Australia seeme to have managed to get out from under, and so did other countries at an earlier time. (I remember reading a Victorian children's novel where a child protagonist simply went into a gun shop in London and bought a gun for a fleeing European dissident he had encountered and was sheltering.) Switzerland is eyeing up a potential problem and doing something about it. But none of these countries has the same mentality as the USA. Australia did it in response to a single horrifying incident. Britain did it incrementally after incidents like Hungerford and Dunblane. But the USA has had scores of incidents worse than these, and it doesn't cause the gun fanatics to blink.

Bowling for Columbine made this point, I think. There are other countries where guns are all over the place and they don't have this problem. Canada was mentioned I think. The difference is the mentality.

It's now a vicious circle. The current availability of firearms stokes the gun-culture mentality, and the gun-culture mentality makes damn sure nothing will be done about the availability of firearms. You simply have to live with it.

The Baptist minister's 14-year-old daughter was in church yesterday morning and is among the dead. That hits pretty close to home. I don't understand why there is no will to change things, but I think we have to accept there isn't.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:30 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You post some stupid thing about me somehow stepping on a child’s brains, then complain about not being able to have a conversation? ******* amazing!
I wasn't expecting YOU to understand.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:31 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What's the difference? Is a Bad Conduct discharge honorable?
No but it is not as bad as dishonorable.

let me google that for you

"Bad Conduct Discharge (BCD)
The Bad Conduct Discharge is only passed on to enlisted military members and is given by a court-martial due to punishment for bad conduct. A Bad Conduct discharge is often preceded by time in military prison. Virtually all veteran’s benefits are forfeited if discharged due to Bad Conduct.

Dishonorable Discharge
If the military considers a service members actions to be reprehensible, the general court-martial can determine a dishonorable discharge is in order. Murder and sexual assault are examples of situations which would result in a dishonorable discharge. If someone is dishonorably discharged from the military they are not allowed to own firearms according to US federal law. Military members who receive a Dishonorable Discharge forfeit all military and veterans benefits and may have a difficult time finding work in the civilian sector."
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:36 AM   #223
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Sounds as if Bad Conduct is analogous to a misdemeanor in civil law …
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:42 AM   #224
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The BBC says the "town" has a population of only 500. That's tiny, small even for a village. Everyone really must know everyone else there. It's the sort of place you'd imagine people would feel safe, not lock their doors and so on.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:46 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The Baptist minister's 14-year-old daughter was in church yesterday morning and is among the dead. That hits pretty close to home. I don't understand why there is no will to change things, but I think we have to accept there isn't.
IMO it illustrates a fundamentally different approach. In the UK, the response would be to call for the government to change the law in an attempt to make such an incident less likely. In the US the response is to arm oneself in an attempt to make such an incident more survivable for oneself and ones family. The UK approach is comparatively passive, to act to effect a change to the law, the US approach is far more direct and is consistent with national character in other ways.

In the UK we are far more trusting of government in many ways and are content for them to make all kinds of decisions and take all kinds of actions on our behalf. IMO people in the US are far more sceptical (or paranoid depending on your POV) of the government's motives and would rather have direct control than leave it to a government agency.

Thus I am happy to rely on the police to protect my physical wellbeing, my brother-in-law is not and feels obliged to arm himself to look after himself and his family.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:47 AM   #226
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Hmmm... RanB says:

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Over here we have laws and regulations which restrict who can possess and make explosives.
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...54007/download
Here are the forms a person fills out; https://www.atf.gov/explosives/explo..._target_id=196 The applicant gets their explosives on demand as long as the forms are filled out correctly and the fee is paid.
and BStrong says:

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
There has never been an instance of a licensed individual committing a criminal act with a lawfully possessed destructive device, but there has been at least one non-fatal accident:
I wonder if there's some kind of lesson in any of this.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:47 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
.... I don't understand why there is no will to change things, but I think we have to accept there isn't.
There is a will to change, no American wants massacres. The problem is that the situation is so bad, it is incurable. The number of guns, laws and the culture mean acting as the UK and Australia did to massacres, is impossible in the USA. Switzerland and Canada kept a lid on their large number of guns by making sure, early doors, only the sensible law abiding people had access, criminals etc found it hard, the laws were straightforward and no culture developed.

So, the only option available is the highly inefficient, unsatisfactory, every man for himself.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:53 AM   #228
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Regarding culture, the USA fought a war to win independence. Canada, New Zealand and Australia did not fight and gradually and peacefully left the UK. For them the UK was still the model for laws etc. The USA wanted to be far more separate.

That fighting and separatist culture is maybe a reason why the USA struggles with gun control, but the rest do not.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:56 AM   #229
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I suppose "no American wants massacres" is a reasonable truism, but way too many Americans are absolutely willing to accept the inevitability of repeated incidents like this.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:56 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The BBC says the "town" has a population of only 500. That's tiny, small even for a village. Everyone really must know everyone else there. It's the sort of place you'd imagine people would feel safe, not lock their doors and so on.
Times have changed. I grew up in a rural community in TN. We didn't lock our doors for years. I could hunt or merely roam all over neighboring properties without a problem. Everyone knew who I was and trusted that I wouldn't cause a problem or was not up to mischief. It is very different now...

I spent 5 years in San Antonio during the early 70's. Outside of the city it was virtually the same way. Farmers and Ranchers could leave their 30-30 (a varmint rifle) hanging in the window of their unlocked pick-up truck without a problem. That has all changed now.

It is nothing new that has only happened in the past few years. It's been developing over time and is becoming worse and worse.

I wish I had the answer, but I don't. It's not a gun culture problem as most idgits imply. It is something other than that. Something is happening that I only have partial answers for it.
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Old 6th November 2017, 04:58 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And?
And another atheist goes on a rampage.
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:01 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Times have changed. I grew up in a rural community in TN. We didn't lock our doors for years. I could hunt or merely roam all over neighboring properties without a problem. Everyone knew who I was and trusted that I wouldn't cause a problem or was not up to mischief. It is very different now...

I spent 5 years in San Antonio during the early 70's. Outside of the city it was virtually the same way. Farmers and Ranchers could leave their 30-30 (a varmint rifle) hanging in the window of their unlocked pick-up truck without a problem. That has all changed now.

It is nothing new that has only happened in the past few years. It's been developing over time and is becoming worse and worse.

I wish I had the answer, but I don't. It's not a gun culture problem as most idgits imply. It is something other than that. Something is happening that I only have partial answers for it.
Why did they bring a Varmint 30-30 if everything was so peaceful and dandy? Hunting? Sports? Adorning fence posts with neat holes?
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:04 AM   #233
Reheat
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Why did they bring a Varmint 30-30 if everything was so peaceful and dandy? Hunting? Sports? Adorning fence posts with neat holes?
Do you understand what a varmint is? Based on your response, apparently not.
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:05 AM   #234
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Why did they bring a Varmint 30-30 if everything was so peaceful and dandy? Hunting? Sports? Adorning fence posts with neat holes?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/varmint
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:06 AM   #235
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There is a will to change gun laws in the USA, it's just that the NRA has a choke hold on those in government. Until the NRA loses power, these gun massacres will continue.
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:07 AM   #236
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
You are right, I don't understand.

I don't understand how America accepts a murder rate of 4.88/100,000 when in the Anglosphere Canada has a rate of 1.68/100,000, the UK has a rate of 0.92/100,000 and Australia has a rate of 0.98/100,000.
I find the "they'd find another way to do it" argument quite disturbing. (Not an American but..) I'd prefer (and consider it more reasonable) to believe that such a discrepancy was due to easy access to deadly weaponry in the heat of the moment than the alternative, that my fellow citizens were simply more homicidal than those of comparable countries.
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:11 AM   #237
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I find the "they'd find another way to do it" argument quite disturbing. (Not an American but..) I'd prefer (and consider it more reasonable) to believe that such a discrepancy was due to easy access to deadly weaponry in the heat of the moment than the alternative, that my fellow citizens were simply more homicidal than those of comparable countries.
Studies show that the evidence agrees with your assertion. The easy accessibility of having a gun is a catalyst to homicide. A heated altercation can easily, and too often, becomes deadly when either party has a gun.
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:22 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I find the "they'd find another way to do it" argument quite disturbing. (Not an American but..) I'd prefer (and consider it more reasonable) to believe that such a discrepancy was due to easy access to deadly weaponry in the heat of the moment than the alternative, that my fellow citizens were simply more homicidal than those of comparable countries.
No, that is not true. The vast majority of American contrary to implication on this site are not homicidal. However, the number is increasing and it is a problem. I am not young and I've never encountered another person that was even close to being homicidal. Contrary to popular believe on this site it is rare. The US is a large and diversified County with a diverse population. Stop spreading this myth because or recent events. There are elements within our society that should disappear or be rehabilitated. MAny of these are copy cat type crimes from disgruntled and evil people. It does not extend to the entire population....
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:25 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, that is not true. The vast majority of American contrary to implication on this site are not homicidal. However, the number is increasing and it is a problem. I am not young and I've never encountered another person that was even close to being homicidal. Contrary to popular believe on this site it is rare. The US is a large and diversified County with a diverse population. Stop spreading this myth because or recent events. There are elements within our society that should disappear or be rehabilitated. MAny of these are copy cat type crimes from disgruntled and evil people. It does not extend to the entire population....

This, obviously
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:26 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Studies show that the evidence agrees with your assertion. The easy accessibility of having a gun is a catalyst to homicide. A heated altercation can easily, and too often, becomes deadly when either party has a gun.
This tirade is total and utterly BS. This kind of rhetoric is part of the problem. Please stop, but I fully realize that is a futile request.
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