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Old 6th November 2017, 07:48 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So law abiding gun owner before yesterday.
At least that's what he indicated when buying the gun (according to cnn).
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us...ect/index.html
Quote:
...When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said. He listed an address in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he bought the rifle, the official said...

Last edited by Castro; 6th November 2017 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 6th November 2017, 07:52 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yet again this shows the problem is the failure to be well regulated. Keep guns away from criminals, mentally ill, angry people and youths and there would be few problems. That is why there are few shootings in the rest of the western world, no matter what the number and type of guns is. Only the USA failed to keep control of who has the guns.
The shooter in this case had a dishonorable discharge and a history of violence. He would not have passed a background check and this would have prevented him from buying a firearm from a licensed gun shop. The trick is that the US allows private sales without background checks. It is perfectly legal in most states to sell a firearm privately without a background check or keeping any records of the sale. It may be illegal for the buyer, but why would any sane society trust criminals in a private sale when we don't trust them when buying in a gun shop?

The organization responsible for keeping it this way is the NRA.

Last edited by Kestrel; 6th November 2017 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Fix typo
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Old 6th November 2017, 07:55 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I am consider visiting England again. I lived there for 3 years in the 80's. I was in East Anglia, but in London many times. Where or whom should I avoid.
There are parts of the UK which are so difficult to get to and, unless you're there to visit specific people, have so little to see if you're a tourist that thy're really not worth the time and effort to get there.

For example IMO it would make very little sense to go all the way to Alston in Cumbria unless you're already in the area. Yes it has a narrow gauge railway (but there are a lot of those in the UK) and the scenery is nice (but there's a lot more that's easily accessible) but it's a chore to get there.

There are parts of most large cities which are large housing estates that have been built in the last 50-60 years. There is often little of architectural interest, little or no visitor attractions and the public transport is moderate at best. I reckon it would take the best part of 4 hours to get from central London to Baneswell in Newport and quite frankly it's not worth the bother.
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Old 6th November 2017, 07:56 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The shooter in this case had a dishonorable discharge and a history of violence.
Not a dishonorable discharge though, and it is unclear if his criminal record barred him from legal gun ownership or not.
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Old 6th November 2017, 07:57 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The shooter in this case had a dishonorable discharge and a history of violence. He would not have passed a background check and this would have prevented him from buying a firearm from a licensed gun shop. The trick is that the US allows private sales without background checks. It is perfectly legal in most states to sell a firearm privately without a background check or keeping Amy records of the sale. It may be illegal for the buyer, but why would any sane society trust criminals in a private sale when we don't trust them when buying in a gun shop?

The organization responsible for keeping it this way is the NRA.
It seems that he bought a gun from a dealer and filled in the form to say he was entitled to do so.

Originally Posted by Castro View Post
At least that's what he indicated when buying the gun (according to cnn).
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us...ect/index.html
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:03 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It seems that he bought a gun from a dealer and filled in the form to say he was entitled to do so.
The problem in our law still remains even if it didn't technically apply in this case.

The next question is why didn't a conviction for domestic violence stop him from passing a background check?
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:04 AM   #287
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http://www.businessinsider.com/texas...olence-2017-11

It also seems that his criminal charges was not for domestic violence so he did not lose his right to own guns for that reason.

"Kelley apparently was not convicted of domestic violence in the incidents that led him to be disciplined; such a conviction could have also legally disqualified him from gun ownership.

But even if the assault charges didn't technically go down as domestic violence, assault alone can be treated as a felony, which should preclude gun ownership."

Seems likely that he was legally able to own guns as he was just below the threshold that such things kick in.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:05 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The problem in our law still remains even if it didn't technically apply in this case.

The next question is why didn't a conviction for domestic violence stop him from passing a background check?
It wasn't charged as domestic violence.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:05 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Which means the allies thought the WWII Japanese were responsible for the atrocities that the Imperial Army committed.
They were if they allowed it to happen knowingly.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:14 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Simple solution would be to ban cars
Ah, the good ol' conservative boogeyman (they have a lot of them) of libtards wanting to ban all guns!
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:15 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Again, I believe he is offering sympathy, not solution. Can't you people understand this basic fact ?
No, he is a politician and one not known for general concern for regular people
(being a republicker and all that entails - pretend heavy religious beliefs, believe the wealthy are better because god made them wealthy, etc.)!!
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:15 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In the absence of any other information (such as comparative figures from around the world), not too much - especially when knives are very easy to obtain, have a host of other uses (I have dozen or more "weapons" in my kitchen and several more in the workshop) and where there aren't any particular rules about safe storage (at least as far as I am aware of).

At least order(s ?) of magnitude fewer people are deliberately killed with knives in the UK than are killed with guns in the United States, it's significantly more difficult to kill several (much less tens) of people with a knife and people standing several metres away from a knife-wielding assailant are less likely to be hit by ricochets or caught in any crossfire.

Indeed the UK knife homicide rate (around 0.3 per 100,000) is half the US knife homicide rate (around 0.7 per 100,000) so maybe those knife laws are working

There was a Dunblane-style attack on a school in England where the attacker was wielding a machete rather than a gun. It's quite hard to find anything about it in news archives, because nobody was killed. There were a number of injuries, notably the female infant teacher who threw herself in front of the children, but he wasn't able to kill anyone.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:16 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
According to some, as soon as the number of privately held guns drops below a certain threshold, the Government (notice the capital G) will declare Material Law and become a dictatorship.
The way I heard it, Obama planned to confiscate all the guns from white people and implement Sharia law.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:18 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
QFT
You don't think that voting for something that harms people makes you somewhat responsible for it?

Wait, why is this a gun thread now?
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:19 AM   #295
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Two arguments come up every time gun control becomes an issue,and they are both painful to listen to, because they are so incredibly stupid.


One is that if guns were outlawed, criminal people with murderous streaks would just use other weapons.

The other is that if guns were outlawed, it wouldn't keep any guns out of criminals' hands.

Each, individually, is moronic, but they are usually used together, which also adds a degree of self-contradiction, making the stupidity of the whole greater than the sum of the stupidity of the parts.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:21 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Really you resort to such an answer?
What are you getting at?
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:22 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
As are mass shootings apparently. Maybe they are related somehow?
You tell me how the types of firearms I make in my garage are related to mass shootings. Can you do it without a weasel word like "maybe"?
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:30 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
You tell me how the types of firearms I make in my garage are related to mass shootings. Can you do it without a weasel word like "maybe"?
I'll do that once you've completed your mass shooting.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:33 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Reports are saying that he was court-martialed for assaulting his wife and child.
You would think that would create a domestic violence record.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:33 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And?
It's false information floating through the alt-reich idiotsphere. There's not very much confirmed information about the shooter yet.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:35 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So law abiding gun owner before yesterday.
What part of the article you linked to supports your claim.

This part says he was buying the rifle illegally; he lied on the form 4473 if what I read about his domestic violence history is true.
Quote:
When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said. He listed an address in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he bought the rifle, the official said.
ETA; It seems the news reports can't really agree on the perp's criminal history.

Last edited by Ranb; 6th November 2017 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:37 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
You tell me how the types of firearms I make in my garage are related to mass shootings. Can you do it without a weasel word like "maybe"?
Is it a fair question to ask someone to make a direct, non-hypothetical connection without actually knowing you personally and your individual circumstances?

It feels a little like a "gotcha" in that you exclude the only way it would be possible to answer the question if there is a legitimate answer.

I am open to the idea that I a missing something or have misunderstood something. If that is the case, please inform me and I will alter my view. At the moment, it sounds like this to me:

You: What does the one in my hand have to do with letter writing.
Other: Well you could use it to write a letter.
You: BZZZZ! no hypotheticals!! If you didn't personally witness me write it, you got nothing! This pen can't possible be connected to letters!


What have I missunderstood?
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:38 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Two arguments come up every time gun control becomes an issue,and they are both painful to listen to, because they are so incredibly stupid.


One is that if guns were outlawed, criminal people with murderous streaks would just use other weapons.

The other is that if guns were outlawed, it wouldn't keep any guns out of criminals' hands.

Each, individually, is moronic, but they are usually used together, which also adds a degree of self-contradiction, making the stupidity of the whole greater than the sum of the stupidity of the parts.
Well they are rarely stated exactly like this. Gun control will have some effect for sure. But it's clear that even now there is black market with guns, and it won't vanish overnight. Also similar attacks by using different means are common in countries with tight gun control.
Maybe next time try to actually bring up some counter arguments.

Last edited by Dr.Sid; 6th November 2017 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:40 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'll do that once you've completed your mass shooting.
Why do you think I'm going to complete a mass shooting? How about you address my argument instead of insulting me?
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:43 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Also similar attack by using different means are common in countries with tight gun control.
In which country are attacks like this, by different means, as common as in the USA? It's been stated several times that this was the 307th mass killing in the USA this year. Which country, adjusted for population, has anything close to that?

These are serious questions. Since you say it's common, it shouldn't be difficult to substantiate.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:46 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Is it a fair question to ask someone to make a direct, non-hypothetical connection without actually knowing you personally and your individual circumstances?
Arcade22 implied that mass shootings are related to the legal non-violent activities in my garage.

Originally Posted by beren View Post
It feels a little like a "gotcha" in that you exclude the only way it would be possible to answer the question if there is a legitimate answer.
What am I excluding?

Originally Posted by beren View Post
I am open to the idea that I a missing something or have misunderstood something. If that is the case, please inform me and I will alter my view.
I posted in this thread about making and registering firearms IAW federal law; firearms of the type which are very rarely associated with any violent crime at all. But somehow he has decided to connect me to mass shootings.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:47 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What part of the article you linked to supports your claim.

This part says he was buying the rifle illegally; he lied on the form 4473 if what I read about his domestic violence history is true.


ETA; It seems the news reports can't really agree on the perp's criminal history.
If he wasn't charged with domestic violence then why would the actual crimes he was convicted of remove his right to own firearms? Everyone is saying now he shouldn't have been able to, but no one is really demonstrating that what he was actually convicted of would carry that.

It does not say he lied on the form, just that he put down that he had not been convicted of a felony which seems to be true.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:49 AM   #308
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There is also the domestic violence. News reports are conflicting at the moment. I made that argument prematurely.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:50 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Arcade22 implied that mass shootings are related to the legal non-violent activities in my garage.


What am I excluding?
Any answer that is theoretical or not specific to you. The problem with that is that he can't know enough about you personally and can only answer theoretically.


Quote:
I posted in this thread about making and registering firearms IAW federal law; firearms of the type which are very rarely associated with any violent crime at all. But somehow he has decided to connect me to mass shootings.
That's fair enough, and I am not attempting to prove his claim. But my first instinct that that asking how a gun you create could be connected to mass shooting without allowing hypotheticals is that same as saying "I have never committed a mass shooting, so it is impossible that I ever could, or that someone else could with my weapons" which clearly does not track logically.
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Last edited by Agatha; 6th November 2017 at 09:30 AM. Reason: fixed quote tags
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:54 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Any answer that is theoretical or not specific to you. The problem with that is that he can't know enough about you personally and can only answer theoretically.
The actual problem is that he assumed too much and should have learned more prior to that post.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:55 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Times have changed. I grew up in a rural community in TN. We didn't lock our doors for years. I could hunt or merely roam all over neighboring properties without a problem. Everyone knew who I was and trusted that I wouldn't cause a problem or was not up to mischief. It is very different now...

I spent 5 years in San Antonio during the early 70's. Outside of the city it was virtually the same way. Farmers and Ranchers could leave their 30-30 (a varmint rifle) hanging in the window of their unlocked pick-up truck without a problem. That has all changed now.

It is nothing new that has only happened in the past few years. It's been developing over time and is becoming worse and worse.

I wish I had the answer, but I don't. It's not a gun culture problem as most idgits imply. It is something other than that. Something is happening that I only have partial answers for it.
The Easy Rider Rifle Rack.
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Old 6th November 2017, 08:56 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
http://www.businessinsider.com/texas...olence-2017-11

It also seems that his criminal charges was not for domestic violence so he did not lose his right to own guns for that reason.

"Kelley apparently was not convicted of domestic violence in the incidents that led him to be disciplined; such a conviction could have also legally disqualified him from gun ownership.

But even if the assault charges didn't technically go down as domestic violence, assault alone can be treated as a felony, which should preclude gun ownership."

Seems likely that he was legally able to own guns as he was just below the threshold that such things kick in.
At this point it seems likely that the background check system was a false negative. Kelley was convicted of assault and sentenced to a year in jail. Any person "convicted of a crime punishable by a sentence exceeding one year" is prohibited from owning a firearm. Unless Kelley got the maximum sentence for his crime that conviction would have met the threshold. (If we knew the section of UCMJ he was charged under we could look this up). The threshold for domestic violence is even lower. As the targets of his assault were a spouse and child the assault should have been counted as domestic violence.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:01 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
There is also the domestic violence. News reports are conflicting at the moment. I made that argument prematurely.
But it seems that it wasn't charged as domestic assault just assault so no legal bar to owning guns.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:02 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
At this point it seems likely that the background check system was a false negative. Kelley was convicted of assault and sentenced to a year in jail. Any person "convicted of a crime punishable by a sentence exceeding one year" is prohibited from owning a firearm. Unless Kelley got the maximum sentence for his crime that conviction would have met the threshold. (If we knew the section of UCMJ he was charged under we could look this up). The threshold for domestic violence is even lower. As the targets of his assault were a spouse and child the assault should have been counted as domestic violence.
So show what it was.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:08 AM   #315
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So show what it was.
Well, Texas apparently denied him a license to carry, so it seems like there is something in his record that shows up on a background check.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:10 AM   #316
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, Texas apparently denied him a license to carry, so it seems like there is something in his record that shows up on a background check.
So what? I think denying a carry license for anyone with violent crimes like assault even if they do not preclude gun ownership is a bad thing.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:12 AM   #317
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what? I think denying a carry license for anyone with violent crimes like assault even if they do not preclude gun ownership is a bad thing.
Well, whatever showed up on the LTC background check that caused the denial should presumably also have been on the background check for the rifle purchase, and also caused a denial.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:12 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
For a start, I would be happy with forcing the NRA to quote the entire 2nd Amendment in all their communications and on all their plaques etc.
As long as anti Second Amendment proponents are required to quote paragraph six of the decision in US v Cruikshank in it's entirety you have a deal.

For the unenlightened, this is the often cited quote:

"The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution."

This is paragraph 6:

"6. The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendments means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government."

ETA - link to the decision:

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../542/case.html
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Last edited by BStrong; 6th November 2017 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:13 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
In which country are attacks like this, by different means, as common as in the USA? It's been stated several times that this was the 307th mass killing in the USA this year. Which country, adjusted for population, has anything close to that?

These are serious questions. Since you say it's common, it shouldn't be difficult to substantiate.
I'm not saying 'as common as in US'. By common I mean nobody really is surprised anymore, when it happens.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:17 AM   #320
LTC8K6
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Could be another deal where the store did everything right, but NICS did not respond with a denial within the required time, so the sale went on?
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