ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags anti-Communism , us foreign policy , US-Russia relations

Reply
Old 7th November 2017, 10:54 AM   #41
Segnosaur
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,501
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
You mean when we didn't care if a leader was a mudering, corrupt dictator as long as he wasn't a Commie? Yes, I remember. And yes, I do understand that in some cases, it was better for our interests to support the murdering corrupt dictator than to let the Communists take over, but I also think that policy often came back to bite us.
Of course the other issue is that sometimes the Communists were also murdering corrupt dictators. So it wasn't always a decision between "murderous right wing thug" and "peaceful commie looking out for his people".

Now, whether the U.S should be condemned for supporting repressive leaders when the alternative is a leader who will be just as bad (but rule with Soviet support) would be an interesting philosophical debate, but one without a clear answer.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 04:04 PM   #42
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,058
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
For decades the USA has been promoting, enacting and justifying coups all over the world.

Iran, Vietnam, Egypt, Syria, Guatemala, Lebanon, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Chile, Nicuraugua, Panama, etc etc.

We have been sticking our noses in other people's business, and finally its come back to bite us in the ass.

That's why while I don't condone the Russian meddling, I also don't oppose it. I see it as karma and justice for what we have done throughout the world for many years.

Hopefully we have learned our lesson.
I very seriously doubt any lesson has been learned. Considering how the cold war turned out, and how badly it could have turned out, the containment strategy doesn't look all that bad in retrospect.

What about the Russians? How will this mysterious karmic justice be meted out on them?

"Deserve's" got nuthin ta do with it." - William Munny, before finishing off Little Bill
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 05:35 PM   #43
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,678
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
I very seriously doubt any lesson has been learned. Considering how the cold war turned out, and how badly it could have turned out, the containment strategy doesn't look all that bad in retrospect.

What about the Russians? How will this mysterious karmic justice be meted out on them?

"Deserve's" got nuthin ta do with it." - William Munny, before finishing off Little Bill
I wonder how the cold war would have gone if the US and its allies just went into isolation mode and let the Soviet bring up communist regimes in every country they wanted too.

Hmmmm I don't think THAT would have been a good idea.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 06:02 PM   #44
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,174
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
I wonder how the cold war would have gone if the US and its allies just went into isolation mode and let the Soviet bring up communist regimes in every country they wanted too.

Hmmmm I don't think THAT would have been a good idea.
All of Central and South America would look like Venezuela does right now.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:19 PM   #45
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,554
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When I saw the thread title, I thought of a different angle. The US "deserved" Russian meddling because we are a bunch of rubes. Too many of us get our "news and opinion" from partisan blogs, internet memes, unsourced nonsense and, sadly, satirical websites like the Onion. Then we pass them along to each other over social media and they become ersatz factoids that too many of us believe. All the Russians did was exploit our own stupidity and I hope that enough of us have learned a lesson. I mean, have you seen some of the stupid Facebook ads they took out? If those ads actually influenced people to vote one way or the other -and you KNOW they did- holy ****, dude, we are toast. If my current Facebook feed is any indication, someone better get the toast and jelly.
I love the Onion,but agree theat for people to get news from it is really bad.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:23 PM   #46
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 17,368
Tu quoque never goes out of style.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 07:24 PM   #47
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 38,105
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When I saw the thread title, I thought of a different angle. The US "deserved" Russian meddling because we are a bunch of rubes. Too many of us get our "news and opinion" from partisan blogs, internet memes, unsourced nonsense and, sadly, satirical websites like the Onion. Then we pass them along to each other over social media and they become ersatz factoids that too many of us believe. All the Russians did was exploit our own stupidity and I hope that enough of us have learned a lesson. I mean, have you seen some of the stupid Facebook ads they took out? If those ads actually influenced people to vote one way or the other -and you KNOW they did- holy ****, dude, we are toast. If my current Facebook feed is any indication, someone better get the toast and jelly.
I assumed it was going to be about how much hyper-partisan, attack based politics has weakened American democracy.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:41 PM   #48
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,058
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
I wonder how the cold war would have gone if the US and its allies just went into isolation mode and let the Soviet bring up communist regimes in every country they wanted too.

Hmmmm I don't think THAT would have been a good idea.
Obviously the containment mode was the superior strategy.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:17 PM   #49
Scootch
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 446
It does seem superior considering the USSR is no more and USA is still up and about meddling in elections or getting our elections meddled by the Russia.
Scootch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 06:16 PM   #50
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,789
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Frank Gorshin.

Oh, hang on...
That was genuinely funny.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 12:46 AM   #51
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 38,105
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Did such electoral system need much influence to get undermined?
The electoral system has it's flaws like all of them. The weakness was in hyper aggressive practices used by the parties in it to undermine it.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 12:39 PM   #52
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,459
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
<snip>

1) The incident occurred within the past few decades (perhaps since the end of the last cold war... since I don't think its fair to judge the U.S. on events many of us either weren't alive for, or weren't of voting age)

<snip>

Why not?

It isn't judging the voters, who have little or no control over those sorts of operations at the best of times.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 01:54 PM   #53
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,058
Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
It does seem superior considering the USSR is no more and USA is still up and about meddling in elections or getting our elections meddled by the Russia.
Baby steps.

Today's Russia is a slight improvement over the USSR.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 02:31 AM   #54
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,268
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Baby steps.

Today's Russia is a slight improvement over the USSR.
But giant steps backwards. Today's USA isn't any improvement on previous US regimes.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 09:24 AM   #55
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,058
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But giant steps backwards. Today's USA isn't any improvement on previous US regimes.
the "millenial" vote could fix that in 3 years.

Unless the Christo-Nazis kill their leaders and convert them to Nazo-Christianity first.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump

Last edited by Toontown; 17th November 2017 at 09:26 AM.
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:40 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.