ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2016 elections , Democratic primaries , hillary clinton , joe biden , presidential candidates

Reply
Old 10th November 2017, 04:22 PM   #41
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No.
ETA :

(That's my irony face.)

This is actully beautiful : we have the Clinton Deranged chasing two mutually exclusive squirrels up two simultaneous threads, and why? Knee-jerk reactions.

Poetry.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 04:30 PM   #42
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Worrying sign for 2020: Democrats appear to be unwilling to distance themselves from Clinton (Understandable if it was criticism from Trump but not so much when it is Joe Biden).

Worrying sign for the USA Politics sub-forum: Anything other than criticism of Trump appears to be regarded as an off-topic derail.
I knew it would take a while to work through the 5 stages.

I didn't think we'd still be on stage 1 after this long.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 04:47 PM   #43
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait you think that Clinton essential running the dnc and Biden deciding not to run are mutually exclusive???

Oh man that is beautiful.
The argument that Biden didn't run because of a hypothetical dirty campaign is incompatible with the argument that the process was fixed anyway - something an insider such as Biden would have been well aware of. You're well aware of it, after all, and you're far from being a Democratic Party insider.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 04:53 PM   #44
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,978
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The argument that Biden didn't run because of a hypothetical dirty campaign is incompatible with the argument that the process was fixed anyway - something an insider such as Biden would have been well aware of. You're well aware of it, after all, and you're far from being a Democratic Party insider.
Incompatible? That is ludicrous. There is absolutely nothing at all inconsistent about the two, indeed they are complementary.

Absurd.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 04:55 PM   #45
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The argument that Biden didn't run because of a hypothetical dirty campaign is incompatible with the argument that the process was fixed anyway - something an insider such as Biden would have been well aware of. You're well aware of it, after all, and you're far from being a Democratic Party insider.
Or he was already resigned to her institutional control, but the (implied) threat of negative campaigning was the straw that broke the camel's back...

Or he felt he could make a run at some institutional insiders and level the field (ETA: maybe she though he could, too...and needed to up the ante), but didn't want to get into a mud-slinging fest that would hurt the party...

Or he prefers to discuss it this way so he can express frustration at her (negative campaigning threat) in a way that doesn't get into the party's mess (DNC shenanigans)...

Or...

Or...

Or...

I mean that's just (not even) half of the ones I came up with 30 seconds after reading your post.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 10th November 2017 at 04:57 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 04:57 PM   #46
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Hey, let's be fair. I have the same predictions about the same group and they are (ostensibly) my political brethren.
You are ostensibly their political brethren, and I am frankly not convinced.

Quote:
So it cannot be dismissed as pure partisan smearing.
Why not? Your word that you're better than that?

Quote:
ETA: The rest of your post reeks of emotional bile hiding behind dispassionate critique.
That's apprently your passionate belief. I don't give it much credit myself.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 05:09 PM   #47
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
You are ostensibly their political brethren, and I am frankly not convinced.

Why not? Your word that you're better than that?

That's apprently your passionate belief. I don't give it much credit myself.
At some point someone will realize a political ideology based on telling other people they aren't good enough to be part of the political ideology has some issues to address.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 05:10 PM   #48
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Or he was already resigned to her institutional control, but the (implied) threat of negative campaigning was the straw that broke the camel's back...
Have you missed the other thread? The DNC had strangled the camel long before, it's all laid out there.

Quote:
Or he felt he could make a run at some institutional insiders and level the field (ETA: maybe she though he could, too...and needed to up the ante), but didn't want to get into a mud-slinging fest that would hurt the party...
I don't think you appreciate just how rigged the process was. Check out the other thread : the fix was in years ago, and there was barely any attempt to conceal it. Even The Big Dog can see it.

Quote:
Or he prefers to discuss it this way so he can express frustration at her (negative campaigning threat) in a way that doesn't get into the party's mess (DNC shenanigans)...
There was no negative campaigning threat, and the process wasn't rigged. Both threads are utterly inane.

Quote:
Or...
Or what? Pixies?

Quote:
I mean that's just (not even) half of the ones I came up with 30 seconds after reading your post.
That's no excuse, frankly. Your lack of discipline is your own fault.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 05:11 PM   #49
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
At some point someone will realize a political ideology based on telling other people they aren't good enough to be part of the political ideology has some issues to address.
Now you're gibbering.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 05:39 PM   #50
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Incompatible? That is ludicrous. There is absolutely nothing at all inconsistent about the two, indeed they are complementary.

Absurd.
If the fix was absolute a dirty campaign would be gratuitous. It would be like Trump turning North Korea into a radioactive wasteland and then shouting insults at Little Rocket Man.

Biden has a book to sell : why would he complain about a hypothetical dirty campaign he was never threatened with and not mention the elephant in the room that was the DNC rigging?
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 05:48 PM   #51
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,978
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
If the fix was absolute a dirty campaign would be gratuitous. It would be like Trump turning North Korea into a radioactive wasteland and then shouting insults at Little Rocket Man.

Biden has a book to sell : why would he complain about a hypothetical dirty campaign he was never threatened with and not mention the elephant in the room that was the DNC rigging?
you are literally reduced to arguments from incredulity rather than even trying to explain how two clearly complementary strategies are mutually exclusive.

Your assertion that it would be gratuitous basically is an admission of that.

Say, progress!
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 07:36 PM   #52
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Now you're gibbering.
/yawn

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 11:12 PM   #53
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,066
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Hey, let's be fair. I have the same predictions about the same group and they are (ostensibly) my political brethren.

So it cannot be dismissed as pure partisan smearing.

ETA: The rest of your post reeks of emotional bile hiding behind dispassionate critique.
Yours and theprestige's biases are not well placed, and ironically reek of emotional bile.

Not all criticisms of 'progressives' are valid. The blatantly false narrative of the OP and the subsequent one from theprestige are not well supported. That there are other sources of bias that lead to the same conclusion is not evidence it isn't partisan.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 10:14 AM   #54
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,978
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yours and theprestige's biases are not well placed, and ironically reek of emotional bile.

Not all criticisms of 'progressives' are valid. The blatantly false narrative of the OP and the subsequent one from theprestige are not well supported. That there are other sources of bias that lead to the same conclusion is not evidence it isn't partisan.
Wait, you think that the op is blatantly false and partisan?

That is amazing, but we do not expect that there is any chance whatsoever you will support that totally outrageous claim.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 10:27 AM   #55
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,066
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait, you think that the op is blatantly false and partisan?

That is amazing, but we do not expect that there is any chance whatsoever you will support that totally outrageous claim.
Oh I should have been even more careful in my wording. The post itself was fine, besides the title and the narrative that builds.

Biden did not say he expected a negative campaign by Hillary. Bashing Hillary and the DNC based on a hypothetical negative primary campaign when the actual primary campaign was not negative from Hillary and was not with the hypothetical opponent is desperate.

Their political opposition holding their feet to the fire for hypothetical sins reeks of partisanship, although you're right that it could just be poor reasoning motivated by other bias, general ineptitude, or personal acrimony.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 10:44 AM   #56
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,818
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oh I should have been even more careful in my wording. The post itself was fine, besides the title and the narrative that builds.

Biden did not say he expected a negative campaign by Hillary. Bashing Hillary and the DNC based on a hypothetical negative primary campaign when the actual primary campaign was not negative from Hillary and was not with the hypothetical opponent is desperate.

Their political opposition holding their feet to the fire for hypothetical sins reeks of partisanship, although you're right that it could just be poor reasoning motivated by other bias, general ineptitude, or personal acrimony.
It is good to see that some of our Trump supporters are so vocally opposed to negative primary campaigns. I don't really recall, but I reckon that they were appalled when Trump quoted a tabloid article tying an opponent's father to the JFK assassination.

Last edited by phiwum; 11th November 2017 at 11:16 AM.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 10:57 AM   #57
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,978
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oh I should have been even more careful in my wording. The post itself was fine, besides the title and the narrative that builds.

Biden did not say he expected a negative campaign by Hillary. Bashing Hillary and the DNC based on a hypothetical negative primary campaign when the actual primary campaign was not negative from Hillary and was not with the hypothetical opponent is desperate.

Their political opposition holding their feet to the fire for hypothetical sins reeks of partisanship, although you're right that it could just be poor reasoning motivated by other bias, general ineptitude, or personal acrimony.
It would appear that you have missed the part where Biden said "how negative stories began appearing in the media about past political positions." And while no one believe that Hillary leaked those stories to the press (hell she could barely order ice tea) it would take an unbelievable level of naivete to think it wasn't Hillary's gang of thugs and surrogates that did it.

Protip: it was, and while Hillary likes to think she isolated herself from her thugs and surrogates, people are not that dumb.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 01:00 PM   #58
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yours and theprestige's biases are not well placed, and ironically reek of emotional bile.
I know you are, but what am I?

Quote:
Not all criticisms of 'progressives' are valid. The blatantly false narrative of the OP and the subsequent one from theprestige are not well supported.
I find they are quite familiar to my own real world experience.

Quote:
That there are other sources of bias that lead to the same conclusion is not evidence it isn't partisan.
So taking both statements together all we have is "it cannot be concluded if it is partisan or not."

But then again you claiming so doesn't even mean it is a result of bias to begin with, not being the unilateral source of truth.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 01:02 PM   #59
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Trump wondering aloud if Flynn could be cleared was obvious subtext, Clinton lamenting how her supporters can get, totally innocent remark.

Uh-huh. No bias there.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 11th November 2017 at 01:03 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 12:14 AM   #60
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 36,809
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Trump wondering aloud if Flynn could be cleared was obvious subtext, Clinton lamenting how her supporters can get, totally innocent remark.

Uh-huh. No bias there.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Who were those respective remarks uttered to?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 03:26 PM   #61
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
you are literally reduced to arguments from incredulity rather than even trying to explain how two clearly complementary strategies are mutually exclusive.
Nothing complements a guaranteed victory. On the contrary, a dirty campaign against Biden would be counter-productive. For no possible benefit it would antagonise some potential Democratic voters, perhaps many, to her cost in the Presidential election - which was, after all, the point of the whole exercise.

And that's not to touch on the fact that Biden could be expected to respond in kind, and just imagine the dirt he must be privy to after a very long career in the Democratic Party spanning both B Clinton's Presidency and H Clinton's time as a Senator and as Secretary of State. Consider the hundreds of murders carried out by the Clintons during that time to protect their globe-spanning crime family : your people have never have found anything concrete on those, but it beggars belief that Biden doesn't have anything. H Clinton would have to be crazy to go there.

H Clinton could have run a dirty campaign against Sanders with impunity : did she? If not, was there some reason it wouldn't have been complementary in that case?

[/quote]Your assertion that it would be gratuitous basically is an admission of that.
It really isn't. Are you quite sure you know what "gratuitous" means?

Quote:
Say, progress!
A mirage, I'm afraid.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 03:55 PM   #62
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It would appear that you have missed the part where Biden said "how negative stories began appearing in the media about past political positions." And while no one believe that Hillary leaked those stories to the press ...
Leaked? Leaked what? Biden's past political positions are a matter of public record.

When these stories started appearing in the press, Biden was the sitting Vice-President and, by virtue of that, presumptive Democratic candidate in the general election. Is it not therefore likely that these stories were pushed by Republicans? Why would they wait until he was confirmed before starting the campaign? It's not as if they didn't already have enough out there on H Clinton, what with all those murders and Benghazi and Whitewater and the emails.

The only thing anyone needed to get out there on Sanders, of course, was "self-confessed socialist".

Quote:
(hell she could barely order ice tea) ...
Get your little thrill there, did you?

...
Quote:
it would take an unbelievable level of naivete to think it wasn't Hillary's gang of thugs and surrogates that did it.
It takes Clinton Derangement Syndrome to see that as the only - or even the most likely - source.

Quote:
Protip: it was, and while Hillary likes to think she isolated herself from her thugs and surrogates, people are not that dumb.
Most people are not fixated on the Clinton crime-family.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 03:59 PM   #63
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Has anyone read the book yet?

The OP cites the Telegraph (aka Torygraph on this side of the Pond) referencing excerpts by The Daily Mail, which needs no introduction, I'm sure. Not what one would call firm ground.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 04:06 PM   #64
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It is good to see that some of our Trump supporters are so vocally opposed to negative primary campaigns. I don't really recall, but I reckon that they were appalled when Trump quoted a tabloid article tying an opponent's father to the JFK assassination.
Hypothetical negative campaigns are un-Americqan. Actual negative campaigns are the American Way.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 04:37 PM   #65
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Trump wondering aloud if Flynn could be cleared was obvious subtext, Clinton lamenting how her supporters can get, totally innocent remark.

Uh-huh. No bias there.
"Lamenting" : no rhetorical loading there.

Has Biden said he thought H Clinton would instigate an ostensibly spontaneous negative campaign by her supporters.

Has he suggested he'd have be shocked to find himself subject to a negative campaign by the GOP if he did become the candidate?

Which of those eventualities - a surreptitious negative campaign by H Clinton or an unrestrained negative campaign by Fox News and the Republican candidate - would you regard as the more likely from Biden's perspective? If he was going to be put off by the prospect of a negative campaign H Clinton would be the last thing on his mind.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 05:00 PM   #66
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,978
EWWWW, I feel the need to shower off the filth from all Hillary fans who have decided to stick up for her and her grotesque attacks on Biden.

EWWWW!
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 06:38 PM   #67
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
EWWWW, I feel the need to shower off the filth from all Hillary fans who have decided to stick up for her and her grotesque attacks on Biden.

EWWWW!
Biden is, and always has been, a Democrat. You'll throw any filth at Demcorats. Why not throw back the filth that H Clinton threw at Biden?

Go on, it'll give you a thrill, throwing filth at a Democrat, and we'll none of us think the worse of you for it, trust me.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 08:32 PM   #68
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,066
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It would appear that you have missed the part where Biden said "how negative stories began appearing in the media about past political positions." And while no one believe that Hillary leaked those stories to the press (hell she could barely order ice tea) it would take an unbelievable level of naivete to think it wasn't Hillary's gang of thugs and surrogates that did it.

Protip: it was, and while Hillary likes to think she isolated herself from her thugs and surrogates, people are not that dumb.
No one has to 'leak' his voting record. The press does look this stuff up, and groups do try to vet candidates.

'Gang of thugs'.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I know you are, but what am I?
You thought it was an important accusation when you made it. Why?



Quote:
I find they are quite familiar to my own real world experience.
Not being the unilateral source of truth, you claiming so doesn't make it so. More to the point, your 'real world experience' includes Hillary running a negative campaign against Biden? Does it include people here on the board attacking Biden? That's not the real world.

I will say something now those wishing to view everything the 'progs' say in the worst possible light as 'attacking Biden' now though; if he wasn't in a place mentally to take negative reporting in a primary campaign it's a good thing he decided not to run. It means he wasn't mentally in a good place to run the actual campaign. That's a shame too, because first and foremost, losing a child is horrid, but also because I would have enjoyed having him as a choice. My personal assessment is he would have done better against Trump than Hillary or Sanders.


Quote:
So taking both statements together all we have is "it cannot be concluded if it is partisan or not."

But then again you claiming so doesn't even mean it is a result of bias to begin with, not being the unilateral source of truth.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
I find they are quite familiar to my own real world experience. Why do you find it valid when you make that argument, but not when others do?

Come on, this line of attack on Hillary and the DNC is abjectly moronic. It's hypothetical sins. It is not a valid concern. (Incoming rant about how 'progs' are dismissive of other's concerns and are supposed to be open to diverse opinions no matter how vapid, I'm sure.)

You do have some valid overall points about how toxic the liberals and progressives can be, but you're getting more and more off on the extent and magnitude of it, to the extent that your asserting it in places it is not is becoming the same kind of toxic you're complaining about. It's become obsessive, and yes it plays right into the Republican cultists' 'divide and conquer' tactic. What do you think you're going to accomplish telling the dems that public voting records is dirty primary campaigning?

Save your powder for actual concerns, damn.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 05:38 AM   #69
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,500
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
EWWWW, I feel the need to shower off the filth from all Hillary fans who have decided to stick up for her and her grotesque attacks on Biden.

EWWWW!
Hypethetical grotesque attacks are fraying the very fabric of America.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 02:52 PM   #70
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Come on, this line of attack on Hillary and the DNC is abjectly moronic. It's hypothetical sins. It is not a valid concern. (Incoming rant about how 'progs' are dismissive of other's concerns and are supposed to be open to diverse opinions no matter how vapid, I'm sure.)
I'll make the same criticism of that as I did of theprestige : taking digs at what people will do rather than wait till they do it is bad form (not to mention bad tactically).
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 05:17 AM   #71
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No one has to 'leak' his voting record. The press does look this stuff up, and groups do try to vet candidates.

'Gang of thugs'.



You thought it was an important accusation when you made it. Why?





Not being the unilateral source of truth, you claiming so doesn't make it so. More to the point, your 'real world experience' includes Hillary running a negative campaign against Biden? Does it include people here on the board attacking Biden? That's not the real world.

I will say something now those wishing to view everything the 'progs' say in the worst possible light as 'attacking Biden' now though; if he wasn't in a place mentally to take negative reporting in a primary campaign it's a good thing he decided not to run. It means he wasn't mentally in a good place to run the actual campaign. That's a shame too, because first and foremost, losing a child is horrid, but also because I would have enjoyed having him as a choice. My personal assessment is he would have done better against Trump than Hillary or Sanders.




I find they are quite familiar to my own real world experience. Why do you find it valid when you make that argument, but not when others do?

Come on, this line of attack on Hillary and the DNC is abjectly moronic. It's hypothetical sins. It is not a valid concern. (Incoming rant about how 'progs' are dismissive of other's concerns and are supposed to be open to diverse opinions no matter how vapid, I'm sure.)

You do have some valid overall points about how toxic the liberals and progressives can be, but you're getting more and more off on the extent and magnitude of it, to the extent that your asserting it in places it is not is becoming the same kind of toxic you're complaining about. It's become obsessive, and yes it plays right into the Republican cultists' 'divide and conquer' tactic. What do you think you're going to accomplish telling the dems that public voting records is dirty primary campaigning?

Save your powder for actual concerns, damn.
Are you done or do you feel you need to continue?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 07:44 AM   #72
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,066
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I'll make the same criticism of that as I did of theprestige : taking digs at what people will do rather than wait till they do it is bad form (not to mention bad tactically).
They already did do. I was recognizing that their previous arguments would apply to that bit of my argument, but yes, the snarky wording of it as a prediction probably doesn't help, nor combining swipes at two different posters in the same sentence (aside from swipes not being the most productive regardless).

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are you done or do you feel you need to continue?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Well I was hoping that perhaps I made a little headway, but now with your response I'm not sure. Your response indicates you're assuming my post was for my benefit, specifically my 'feelings'.

People disagreeing with specific criticisms you have is not effectively hand-waved as 'emotional'. The idea that bias from liberals and progressives is valid when you make the accusation but invalid when liberals, progressives, and moderates make the accusation is troublingly common from you as of late, almost as if it's a persecution complex. Any given accusation needs judged on it's merits. Do you not realize that 'I find it fits with my own real world experiences' is an admission of bias? I thought perhaps using that same argument against you would let you see it, but I'm doubting it's getting through. Bias is always there, so we must correct for it.

Again, you have some valid complaints on the general level and in some specific instances, but you're applying them so widely as to be absurd. This criticism of Hillary that she would have hypothetically ran a negative primary campaign against a grieving father that she worked with for years when she didn't even run a negative real world campaign against someone not even from her own damn party is flat out ridiculous.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 10:46 AM   #73
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well I was hoping that perhaps I made a little headway, but now with your response I'm not sure. Your response indicates you're assuming my post was for my benefit, specifically my 'feelings'.

People disagreeing with specific criticisms you have is not effectively hand-waved as 'emotional'. The idea that bias from liberals and progressives is valid when you make the accusation but invalid when liberals, progressives, and moderates make the accusation is troublingly common from you as of late, almost as if it's a persecution complex. Any given accusation needs judged on it's merits. Do you not realize that 'I find it fits with my own real world experiences' is an admission of bias? I thought perhaps using that same argument against you would let you see it, but I'm doubting it's getting through. Bias is always there, so we must correct for it.

Again, you have some valid complaints on the general level and in some specific instances, but you're applying them so widely as to be absurd. This criticism of Hillary that she would have hypothetically ran a negative primary campaign against a grieving father that she worked with for years when she didn't even run a negative real world campaign against someone not even from her own damn party is flat out ridiculous.
You could have just said "no."

ETA: My "it fits..." statement was about what behavior I expect from politicians, but you want to argue like I personally insulted Hillary (which fits my experience of what happens when discussing Hillary).

Not interested in that kind of discussion, you should try elsewhere.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 15th November 2017 at 10:52 AM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 03:25 PM   #74
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,634
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They already did do. I was recognizing that their previous arguments would apply to that bit of my argument, but yes, the snarky wording of it as a prediction probably doesn't help, nor combining swipes at two different posters in the same sentence (aside from swipes not being the most productive regardless).
I had to comment on it or leave myself open to accusations of double standards - the sort of opening I'd be all over myself.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 09:29 AM   #75
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,066
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You could have just said "no."

ETA: My "it fits..." statement was about what behavior I expect from politicians, but you want to argue like I personally insulted Hillary (which fits my experience of what happens when discussing Hillary).

Not interested in that kind of discussion, you should try elsewhere.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
I could have just said no, but I decided to expand and possibly clarify my position in hopes of increase understanding. That you have no interest in that kind of discussion doesn't persuade me to change my argument in the least.

The criticism you've leveled is abject nonsense. The 'your objection defends Hillary' hand-wave is no less a hand-wave than the 'it's my experience' hand-wave, even when combined. It doesn't matter what your preconceived notions and bias tells you about my objections to your argument are or are motivated by; my objection stands on it's own merits. Your argument fails on it's lack of merits.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I had to comment on it or leave myself open to accusations of double standards - the sort of opening I'd be all over myself.
Fair enough.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 09:37 AM   #76
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,998
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I could have just said no, but I decided to expand and possibly clarify my position in hopes of increase understanding. That you have no interest in that kind of discussion doesn't persuade me to change my argument in the least.

The criticism you've leveled is abject nonsense. The 'your objection defends Hillary' hand-wave is no less a hand-wave than the 'it's my experience' hand-wave, even when combined. It doesn't matter what your preconceived notions and bias tells you about my objections to your argument are or are motivated by; my objection stands on it's own merits. Your argument fails on it's lack of merits.
How many more times are you going to generically assert that you are correct and I am not?

Making a whole bunch of hubris-laden statements isn't really much of anything.

We disagree.

I do not assert that we disagree because I am the pinnacle of rational consideration and you are hopelessly biased, no.

We simply disagree.

Stop trying to "win" for ***** sake.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 16th November 2017 at 09:40 AM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 10:51 AM   #77
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,066
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How many more times are you going to generically assert that you are correct and I am not?

Making a whole bunch of hubris-laden statements isn't really much of anything.

We disagree.

I do not assert that we disagree because I am the pinnacle of rational consideration and you are hopelessly biased, no.

We simply disagree.

Stop trying to "win" for ***** sake.
Stop asserting you know the motivations for my arguments. The only 'wins' I'm after are to either understand your argument better or for you to understand mine.

Why do you think it is valid to hold people accountable for hypothetical sins? If you can't support this, your argument does not hold. If you cannot support this, my criticism of your argument holds. I don't have to prove a negative for my criticism to be valid. That isn't 'hubris'.

If all you want to do is call people who don't hate Hillary based on irrational accusations accusation 'mean', well, have at it. If you want to support your argument, that I'm much more interested in. If you can't, you have nothing worth considering here.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:12 AM   #78
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,668
Mod WarningA LONG derail about the assumption that Democrats would reflexively attack Biden has been moved to AAH. Please stay on topic and do not delberately attempt to derail the thread.
Posted By:TubbaBlubba
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:30 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.