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Old 29th January 2021, 11:34 AM   #521
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Vermont also had a refrigeration breakdown with Moderna, but apparently it was minor enough that after consultation they decided that the vaccine was not spoiled, which is a relief considering how slow the apportionment has been.
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Old 29th January 2021, 12:21 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
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J&J said Friday that in the U.S. and seven other countries where their trial has been conducted, the single-shot vaccine was 66 per cent effective overall at preventing moderate to severe illness, and much more protective — 85 per cent — against the most serious symptoms.
You'd think at 66% effective they'd test it with 2 doses. They are calculating on getting a market share with one dose. After they move into the market they can always say another dose is a good idea.
Perhaps. But if I remember correctly, the 66% effectiveness for a single shot is more effective than the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines after a single dose.

I wonder if people think a booster is needed for the J&J 'single shot' vaccines, that they might try mixing up the vaccines. (For example, there are studies going on regarding mixing Astrazenica and Sputnik vaccine doses... I think the theory is that the body might develop an immunity to the non-covid components in the first dose, which means a booster with the same vaccine might not be as effective.)
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Old 29th January 2021, 12:33 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Perhaps. But if I remember correctly, the 66% effectiveness for a single shot is more effective than the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines after a single dose.
As I mentioned in the other thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13362890 the Pfizer vaccine seems pretty effective (>85%) after one dose. Not known for how long, though.
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Old 29th January 2021, 12:55 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
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Perhaps. But if I remember correctly, the 66% effectiveness for a single shot is more effective than the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines after a single dose.
As I mentioned in the other thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13362890 the Pfizer vaccine seems pretty effective (>85%) after one dose. Not known for how long, though.
I stand corrected. (Unfortunately the media still seems to be publishing a lower effectiveness for the first dose of Pfizer.)

I think I was actually wrong about Moderna too... now that I've googled things (rather than relying on memory) it seems like the first dose of it provides > 80% protection as well.
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Old 29th January 2021, 02:10 PM   #525
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It's worth pointing out that these vaccine effectiveness trials are all done in minimal time so those numbers could sort themselves out to be quite different with a larger population.
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Old 29th January 2021, 06:09 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's worth pointing out that these vaccine effectiveness trials are all done in minimal time so those numbers could sort themselves out to be quite different with a larger population.
Which is why there should be no rush for most people in countries, like Australia, where the number of cases is very low (as in single digits per day or zero) to get vaccinated. There is a significant risk that people getting certain vaccines now will be told they have to have another one later because the one they had was not very effective and the other one has always been so much better. For example, some vaccines may not stop people from transmitting the virus to other people.
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Old 29th January 2021, 06:59 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Which is why there should be no rush for most people in countries, like Australia, where the number of cases is very low (as in single digits per day or zero) to get vaccinated. There is a significant risk that people getting certain vaccines now will be told they have to have another one later because the one they had was not very effective and the other one has always been so much better. For example, some vaccines may not stop people from transmitting the virus to other people.
I don't find this argument compelling.

Letting the countries with more cases have priority for the vaccine is a more compelling argument.
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Old 29th January 2021, 07:33 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Letting the countries with more cases have priority for the vaccine is a more compelling argument.
I wish it were unarguable. However, I think there is a some merit to the argument that the countries with the most cases should just suffer and die because they screwed up royally. But we (I say "we" because I'm in such a country) are also a huge threat to the world since we're a breeding ground for the next resistant variant.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:11 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I wish it were unarguable. However, I think there is a some merit to the argument that the countries with the most cases should just suffer and die because they screwed up royally. But we (I say "we" because I'm in such a country) are also a huge threat to the world since we're a breeding ground for the next resistant variant.
You're being sarcastic, right?
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:19 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't find this argument compelling.

Letting the countries with more cases have priority for the vaccine is a more compelling argument.
That is not a compelling argument either. Australia is talking about making its own vaccine. It would be very bad to manufacture the wrong one.

But I do agree, it would be silly for many countries to export their vaccine if they do not have enough for themselves.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:24 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're being sarcastic, right?
I explained what I was being.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:00 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't find this argument compelling.

Letting the countries with more cases have priority for the vaccine is a more compelling argument.
The argument would be more compelling if there were a significant risk from the vaccine that is even close to that from the disease. If someone offered me a mediocre vaccine right now, I'd run not walk to the nearest vaccinator, and if it turned out later that a better one was needed, I'd run back. People get so hung up over all or nothing.
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Old 30th January 2021, 01:02 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The argument would be more compelling if there were a significant risk from the vaccine that is even close to that from the disease. If someone offered me a mediocre vaccine right now, I'd run not walk to the nearest vaccinator, and if it turned out later that a better one was needed, I'd run back. People get so hung up over all or nothing.
If I lived in the USA I would have the same attitude as what you say. But I live in a country that has not had any locally transmitted Covid 19 for 14 days.
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Old 30th January 2021, 03:19 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The argument would be more compelling if there were a significant risk from the vaccine that is even close to that from the disease. If someone offered me a mediocre vaccine right now, I'd run not walk to the nearest vaccinator, and if it turned out later that a better one was needed, I'd run back. People get so hung up over all or nothing.
True. I had a tetanus jab last year. I then had to come back six months later for jab number two and then a year later for final jab number three. I didn't think it important but my health centre obviously thought it was. We have a lot of farmland here.
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Old 30th January 2021, 04:50 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The argument would be more compelling if there were a significant risk from the vaccine that is even close to that from the disease. If someone offered me a mediocre vaccine right now, I'd run not walk to the nearest vaccinator, and if it turned out later that a better one was needed, I'd run back. People get so hung up over all or nothing.

This.
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Old 30th January 2021, 04:53 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Which is why there should be no rush for most people in countries, like Australia, where the number of cases is very low (as in single digits per day or zero) to get vaccinated. There is a significant risk that people getting certain vaccines now will be told they have to have another one later because the one they had was not very effective and the other one has always been so much better. For example, some vaccines may not stop people from transmitting the virus to other people.
I don't see how any vaccine could. If a person, A, vaccinated, comes into contact with person B, who is actively infectious and spends some time together, then Person A might still unwittingly pass on the virus picked up from B to Person C, shortly after, assuming A hasn't had a chance to change their clothes or have a shower.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:03 AM   #537
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Saturday progress update
Latest updates from:

The Bloomberg tracker
Quote:
The biggest vaccination campaign in history is underway. More than 90.8 million doses in 62 countries have been administered, according to data collected by Bloomberg. The latest rate was roughly 4.39 million doses a day, on average.
For comparison, a week ago 60.3 million doses had been administered in 55 countries and two weeks ago 37.9 million doses had been administered in 49 countries. An increase of 30.5 million in the last 7 days. Also the daily rate has increased from 2.41 million to 2.95 million and now 4.39 million in the last week. So we are seeing some ramping up in the rate of delivery, which is good news, and hopefully that will continue.

Quote:
Vaccinations in the U.S. began Dec. 14 with health-care workers, and so far 28.9 million shots have been given, according to a state-by-state tally by Bloomberg and data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In the last week, an average of 1.30 million doses per day were administered.
Again, this is an improvement over last week.
For comparison, a week ago 19.8 million shots had been given and the rate was 982,739 doses per day. 10.1 million shots were given in the last 7 days, compared with 6.8 million the previous week.

The Our World in Data tracker
Israel remains in the lead with 53.54 doses administered per 100 people so far. 34.22% of the population have received at least one dose and 19.32% have received both doses. These are amazing figures.

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/israel/

The figures for new infections and active cases appear to be falling in Israel, and even the deaths seem to have started trending down in the last few days.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:08 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't see how any vaccine could. If a person, A, vaccinated, comes into contact with person B, who is actively infectious and spends some time together, then Person A might still unwittingly pass on the virus picked up from B to Person C, shortly after, assuming A hasn't had a chance to change their clothes or have a shower.
Yeah, but those scenarios are not really a big spreader. It's when a person gets infected that their body becomes a factory for the virus to produce new copies of itself. If it can prevent that, then that person is highly unlikely to become a vector.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:10 AM   #539
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The mask issue. If I have to go to a hazardous place I'll put the surgical mask over my two-tier cloth mask bought from Finlayson which is very comfortable (they disclaim covid protection) I find I start breathing through my mouth. This strikes me as somehow abnegating the point of wearing a mask as when you breathe through your nose you are safer from germs and dust because of the small hairs filters, whereas when one mouth breathes any virus goes wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am straight to your throat, where the protein spikes start digging in in gay abandon.

ETA: Just looked this up and it seems Finlayson are claiming their masks are 80% effective and also three-tiered, not two.

Quote:
Prevention is the best protection.
We would not have believed that the time would come when respiratory protection would become a necessity in Finland. Nor would we have believed that the lack of products required for protection could pose a threat to the health and lives of many of us.

The
filtration
capacity of our fabric masks is over 80%
Our high-quality fabric masks have a filtering capacity of more than 80%, according to Eurofins *. Absolutely all Finlayson fabric masks have three layers - that's why their performance is so high.
https://www.finlayson.fi/pages/kangasmaskit

I have the same mask as the guy in the picture, and also a second one in black and white. After use, I hang them in the sauna to sterilise them in the heat. (The product does have a disclaimer on the label that it is not to be assumed to be safe against covid. I suppose they have to cover their backs.)

I read in a newspaper that after a machine or handwash of a cloth mask, the cotton fibres bind more closely together to afford even better protection than when new.

Notandum I only bought the first mask because I stupidly forgot the surgical masks and had to wander around a shopping centre for a couple of hours whilst my winter tyres were being fitted, so I bought one urgently. Lucky me, there was a 20% discount that day as the place was near deserted, thanks to everyone staying away from shopping malls. The next time I was there awaiting my car oil change, I took the opportunity to buy a spare one.
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Last edited by Vixen; 30th January 2021 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 30th January 2021, 07:36 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't see how any vaccine could. If a person, A, vaccinated, comes into contact with person B, who is actively infectious and spends some time together, then Person A might still unwittingly pass on the virus picked up from B to Person C, shortly after, assuming A hasn't had a chance to change their clothes or have a shower.

That's not how it works, unless you're only talking about human bodies acting as fomites, which they don't as a general rule.

The virus needs to get into human cells to multiply. Someone is infectious because the virus is multiplying in their cells. In general vaccines stop this from happening, however nobody is quite sure yet whether this applies to the new covid vaccines. The possibility still exists that the vaccine could prevent the virus infecting cells deep in the lungs, but still allow cells in the upper respiratory tract to become infected and so produce more virus which the asymptomatic, vaccinated person could still excrete.

Nobody knows yet whether or not this happens because the prime purpose of the initial vaccines is to stop the vaccinated person themselves becoming sick. It's perfectly possible that at least some of the vaccines prevent infection full stop and therefore the vaccinated person will not pass the virus on. But even if this does prove to be a problem, intranasal vaccines that promote the formation of IgA will solve it.
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Old 30th January 2021, 09:57 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The argument would be more compelling if there were a significant risk from the vaccine that is even close to that from the disease. If someone offered me a mediocre vaccine right now, I'd run not walk to the nearest vaccinator, and if it turned out later that a better one was needed, I'd run back. People get so hung up over all or nothing.

That raises an interesting question. If you've already been vaccinated, and then subsequently a 'better' vaccine -- however you might define "better" -- became available, can you grab that as well? Not as a matter of policy, not as a matter of ethics, but as a matter of "will the better vaccine you're now taking work just as well as it would have -- and might there be any higher risk of side effects than there would have been -- had you not taken the first vaccine at all"?
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Old 30th January 2021, 10:18 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That raises an interesting question. If you've already been vaccinated, and then subsequently a 'better' vaccine -- however you might define "better" -- became available, can you grab that as well? Not as a matter of policy, not as a matter of ethics, but as a matter of "will the better vaccine you're now taking work just as well as it would have -- and might there be any higher risk of side effects than there would have been -- had you not taken the first vaccine at all"?
There seems to be a general consensus that it might or might not help, but probably wouldn't hurt. There's also discussion about whether people might need covid vaccinations on an annual or other regular schedule, as with flu shots.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...oost-immunity/
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Old 30th January 2021, 10:20 AM   #543
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Bear in mind that the eventual goal of a vaccination programme is not to protect individuals, although of course it does that inter alia, it is to stop community spread of the pathogen and so eliminate it from the population. People expounding an angry fatalism about this prospect are simply wrong.

What will really protect you as an individual is the elimination of community spread. Your being vaccinated of course comtributes to that objective, but your own personal vaccine is not what you need to think about. It's the elimination of community spread. When that happens you will be safe and it won't matter which vaccine you had in the first place. Until that objective is achieved you should continue to be careful what you do, as nobody can assume with 100% certainty that they personally are protected.

It's all a bit chaotic at the moment with many governments muddling along in the generally right direction without having much idea of an overall strategy, but as case incidence comes down things should become clearer. Get vaccinated, but watch the incidence figures for your community as your real guide to how well you're protected. If the virus isn't circulating, that's the best protection you can have. It will get there in the end.

Yes we'll be dealing with covid for a while to come, but this should take the form of jumping on new introductions that have evaded whatever border controls are in force. Not continually firefighting permanent community transmission. If annual vaccinations are required this should be with a view to depriving newly-introduced virus of an easy target of susceptible people, it should not be because there is ongoing community transmission. That can, should and eventually will end.
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Old 30th January 2021, 10:36 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That raises an interesting question. If you've already been vaccinated, and then subsequently a 'better' vaccine -- however you might define "better" -- became available, can you grab that as well? Not as a matter of policy, not as a matter of ethics, but as a matter of "will the better vaccine you're now taking work just as well as it would have -- and might there be any higher risk of side effects than there would have been -- had you not taken the first vaccine at all"?
True, there may be technical issues with some particular vaccines. My statement was assuming it's just a matter of whether or not to take another shot. We don't know absolutely even now how long the protection of any vaccine will last, either.
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Old 30th January 2021, 10:53 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There seems to be a general consensus that it might or might not help, but probably wouldn't hurt. There's also discussion about whether people might need covid vaccinations on an annual or other regular schedule, as with flu shots.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...oost-immunity/

Good to know, thanks. And that article was an interesting read.

(Although that article was, I think, more about two different vaccines that are more or less similar in potency. They were discussing whether the difference per se might make things better. I was asking not so much about a mixed-dose strategy, as about accessing an actually superior vaccine afterwords. What I was wondering is whether if someone were to take a 60% effective vaccine today (someone in China, say), or a vaccine that may not work for some specific strains, and subsequently, in a couple months' time, another vaccine that gives 90%+ protection and covers all the strains became available, then would the fact that this someone has already taken the inferior vaccine somehow be unable to take full advantage of the newer vaccine? Just idle curiosity, because at the moment at least there's not much chance of that happening, or if it did happen then being so freely available, not any time soon.)


Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bear in mind that the eventual goal of a vaccination programme is not to protect individuals, although of course it does that inter alia, it is to stop community spread of the pathogen and so eliminate it from the population. People expounding an angry fatalism about this prospect are simply wrong.

What will really protect you as an individual is the elimination of community spread. Your being vaccinated of course comtributes to that objective, but your own personal vaccine is not what you need to think about. It's the elimination of community spread. When that happens you will be safe and it won't matter which vaccine you had in the first place. Until that objective is achieved you should continue to be careful what you do, as nobody can assume with 100% certainty that they personally are protected.

It's all a bit chaotic at the moment with many governments muddling along in the generally right direction without having much idea of an overall strategy, but as case incidence comes down things should become clearer. Get vaccinated, but watch the incidence figures for your community as your real guide to how well you're protected. If the virus isn't circulating, that's the best protection you can have. It will get there in the end.

Yes we'll be dealing with covid for a while to come, but this should take the form of jumping on new introductions that have evaded whatever border controls are in force. Not continually firefighting permanent community transmission. If annual vaccinations are required this should be with a view to depriving newly-introduced virus of an easy target of susceptible people, it should not be because there is ongoing community transmission. That can, should and eventually will end.

Well said. That's something we should keep in mind. (Although, and pardon my nitpick, I don't suppose the current lot, that do suppress/mitigate symptoms but may or may not stop incidence, enable that particular end, at all.)
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:23 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
True. I had a tetanus jab last year. I then had to come back six months later for jab number two and then a year later for final jab number three. I didn't think it important but my health centre obviously thought it was. We have a lot of farmland here.
You would have only gotten 3 if they didn't think you'd had the series in childhood.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:27 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't see how any vaccine could. If a person, A, vaccinated, comes into contact with person B, who is actively infectious and spends some time together, then Person A might still unwittingly pass on the virus picked up from B to Person C, shortly after, assuming A hasn't had a chance to change their clothes or have a shower.
That's incredibly unlikely.

Usually one is not contagious until one has incubated the infection. It's all about the numbers.

Flu vaccine (and now COVID) doesn't prevent all infections. Sometimes they just modify the disease so one can still pass it on when asymptomatic or only mildly ill.

I had my first dose of the Pfizer vaccine this morning. I'm relieved to maybe not dying from COVID if I get it. And after the second dose in 3 weeks I'll be even more relieved.

I don't need it to prevent the infection, just to prevent me dying from it.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:33 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The mask issue. If I have to go to a hazardous place I'll put the surgical mask over my two-tier cloth mask bought from Finlayson which is very comfortable (they disclaim covid protection) I find I start breathing through my mouth. This strikes me as somehow abnegating the point of wearing a mask as when you breathe through your nose you are safer from germs and dust because of the small hairs filters, whereas when one mouth breathes any virus goes wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am straight to your throat, where the protein spikes start digging in in gay abandon.

ETA: Just looked this up and it seems Finlayson are claiming their masks are 80% effective and also three-tiered, not two.

https://www.finlayson.fi/pages/kangasmaskit

I have the same mask as the guy in the picture, and also a second one in black and white. After use, I hang them in the sauna to sterilise them in the heat. (The product does have a disclaimer on the label that it is not to be assumed to be safe against covid. I suppose they have to cover their backs.)

I read in a newspaper that after a machine or handwash of a cloth mask, the cotton fibres bind more closely together to afford even better protection than when new.

Notandum I only bought the first mask because I stupidly forgot the surgical masks and had to wander around a shopping centre for a couple of hours whilst my winter tyres were being fitted, so I bought one urgently. Lucky me, there was a 20% discount that day as the place was near deserted, thanks to everyone staying away from shopping malls. The next time I was there awaiting my car oil change, I took the opportunity to buy a spare one.
While breathing through one's nose does filter out dust and other particulates, it doesn't lessen the chance of COVID which more than likely finds the nose the best portal of entry.

That's based on my reading multiple sources but not on some specific research. It is certain however that one's nose is not a barrier to infection.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:39 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That raises an interesting question. If you've already been vaccinated, and then subsequently a 'better' vaccine -- however you might define "better" -- became available, can you grab that as well? Not as a matter of policy, not as a matter of ethics, but as a matter of "will the better vaccine you're now taking work just as well as it would have -- and might there be any higher risk of side effects than there would have been -- had you not taken the first vaccine at all"?
Currently the vaccine administrators are telling people to get the second dose using the same brand only because there is no data on mixing vaccine types.

In general, killed vaccines would boost previous killed vaccines.

A killed vaccine might however, lessen the effectiveness of a subsequent live vaccine. We have a couple vaccines where that is the case. And dengue vaccine/disease has some complicated interactions.

We'll know more a year from now after more data is collected.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:43 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bear in mind that the eventual goal of a vaccination programme is not to protect individuals, although of course it does that inter alia, it is to stop community spread of the pathogen and so eliminate it from the population. People expounding an angry fatalism about this prospect are simply wrong......
Nonsense. The goal is both. Decreasing the burden on hospitals and preventing death is most certainly a major goal of the vaccinations.

And it's highly unlikely we will ever eliminate this pathogen from the population.
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Old 30th January 2021, 01:14 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Good to know, thanks. And that article was an interesting read.

(Although that article was, I think, more about two different vaccines that are more or less similar in potency. They were discussing whether the difference per se might make things better. I was asking not so much about a mixed-dose strategy, as about accessing an actually superior vaccine afterwords. What I was wondering is whether if someone were to take a 60% effective vaccine today (someone in China, say), or a vaccine that may not work for some specific strains, and subsequently, in a couple months' time, another vaccine that gives 90%+ protection and covers all the strains became available, then would the fact that this someone has already taken the inferior vaccine somehow be unable to take full advantage of the newer vaccine? Just idle curiosity, because at the moment at least there's not much chance of that happening, or if it did happen then being so freely available, not any time soon.)
....
The best reference would probably be current vaccines. There are two shingles vaccines, but getting the old one doesn't prevent you from getting the new one (in fact, it's recommended). There are two pneumonia vaccines, and authorities used to recommend getting both, although now they apparently think the one with broader coverage is enough. There are several different flu vaccines, and we're supposed to get a new shot every year. As a non-doc, I think the idea is that the vaccines incite the same response in the body, even if they achieve it by different means.
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Old 30th January 2021, 02:10 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The best reference would probably be current vaccines. There are two shingles vaccines, but getting the old one doesn't prevent you from getting the new one (in fact, it's recommended). There are two pneumonia vaccines, and authorities used to recommend getting both, although now they apparently think the one with broader coverage is enough. There are several different flu vaccines, and we're supposed to get a new shot every year. As a non-doc, I think the idea is that the vaccines incite the same response in the body, even if they achieve it by different means.
Those are all different situations.

The second shingles vaccine is a killed vaccine, the first is live. I didn't know it was recommended to get the second one if you'd had the first. I'll look into it.

As for the pneumovax, the newer ones have more strains covered. We have an age when vaccinated formula for who needs an additional dose with more strains. And there are more than 2.

You get an annual flu vaccine to stay current on the circulating strains which drift or shift genetically from year to year.
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Old 30th January 2021, 03:27 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nonsense. The goal is both. Decreasing the burden on hospitals and preventing death is most certainly a major goal of the vaccinations.

And it's highly unlikely we will ever eliminate this pathogen from the population.

Don't be silly. Quite a few countries have eliminated the pathogen from their populations, without even having a vaccine. Scotland did it last summer, only we stupidly let it back in again. Having vaccines makes it much more doable. It's stubborn fatalism like yours that will be the biggest barrier to success.

Decreasing hospitalisations and preventing mortality is certainly a major goal of vaccination, but the primary goal is the elimination of community spread of the pathogen, which of course accomplishes both.
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Old 30th January 2021, 04:52 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Don't be silly. Quite a few countries have eliminated the pathogen from their populations, without even having a vaccine. Scotland did it last summer, only we stupidly let it back in again. Having vaccines makes it much more doable. It's stubborn fatalism like yours that will be the biggest barrier to success.

Decreasing hospitalisations and preventing mortality is certainly a major goal of vaccination, but the primary goal is the elimination of community spread of the pathogen, which of course accomplishes both.
Quite a few? Name them.

None so far has kept the virus out and only 2 that I know of Oz and NZ have even come close. Of course the virus returned to Scotland. It is no longer possible this virus will be eliminated from any country.

But even if a country could, like NZ hopes to, you can't function forever in isolation from the rest of the world.

It's not fatalism, it's a knowledge based conclusion. And don't try to weasel out of what you said:
Quote:
... eventual goal of a vaccination programme is not to protect individuals,
Yes, it the goal to protect individuals because there is no way this virus will be eradicated from the human population.
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Old 30th January 2021, 06:34 PM   #555
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Early study (not peer reviewed) potentially showing that the South African variant cuts vaccine efficacy in half: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...esist-vaccines

With the Brazil P1 variant having what appears to be a more vaccine-avoiding mutation, none of this is good news.
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Old 30th January 2021, 06:43 PM   #556
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I'm scheduled to get the vaccine on Thursday. It feels wrong because there are definitely people who are older and far more deserving. Before they jab me, Imma shout "YOLO!" That should make me the first person in history to say that prior to doing something smart. After they jab me, I want to pretend to have a seizure, but I know I'll wimp out.
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Old 30th January 2021, 08:58 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Early study (not peer reviewed) potentially showing that the South African variant cuts vaccine efficacy in half: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...esist-vaccines
Keep in mind that, according to the article, the "cut vaccine efficacy in half" claim is for a study involving one particular vaccine (Novavax). It would not be surprising if the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines also were less effective, but we don't yet know if their effectiveness would be "cut in half" also. (The article also pointes out that the Johnson and Johnson vaccine doesn't work as well on the South African variant, but it isn't half as effective.)
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Old 30th January 2021, 09:30 PM   #558
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Dodger Stadium mass COVID-19 vaccination site temporarily shuts down after protesters block entrance

Quote:
Jan 30, 2021 / 04:08 PM PST

One of the largest vaccination sites in the country temporarily shut down Saturday because dozen of protesters blocked the entrance, stalling hundreds of motorists who had been waiting in line for hours, the Los Angeles Times reported.
. . .

“This is completely wrong,” said German Jaquez, who drove from his home in La Verne and had been waiting for an hour for his vaccination when the stadium’s gates were closed. He said some of the protesters were telling people in line that the coronavirus is not real and that the vaccination is dangerous.
. . .

A post on social media described the demonstration as the “SCAMDEMIC PROTEST/MARCH.” It advised participants to “please refrain from wearing Trump/MAGA attire as we want our statement to resonate with the sheeple. No flags but informational signs only.

“This is a sharing information protest and march against everything COVID, Vaccine, PCR Tests, Lockdowns, Masks, Fauci, Gates, Newsom, China, digital tracking, etc.”
The "sheeple" made me chuckle but this is an actual real pain in ass for people waiting in line to get vaccinated. I'm sure that fewer people were able to get their shots that day than would have.

First Amendment right? I know they have the right to state their opinions, but do they have the right to impede others who are going about their lives? I don't think blocking a public road should be protected by the First Amendment.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:53 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
.....
After they jab me, I want to pretend to have a seizure, but I know I'll wimp out.
An apparent seizure would result in massive medical intervention and probably a trip to the emergency room. It might be too late to say "aw, just kidding!"
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:59 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
....
The second shingles vaccine is a killed vaccine, the first is live. I didn't know it was recommended to get the second one if you'd had the first. I'll look into it.
....

Quote:
Healthy adults 50 years and older should get two doses of Shingrix, separated by 2 to 6 months. You should get Shingrix even if in the past you

had shingles
received Zostavax*
are not sure if you had chickenpox
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/shi...rix/index.html
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