General UK politics - Page 11

Planigale · 23rd November 2020, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

You have seemingly equated "plain speaking" with what she did (and not alleged - the report found she had breached the code). Plus you have named politicians that were in power before the "Ministerial Code" was put in place - (which was if memory serves me right the policy of Cameron and Clegg) perhaps the politicians you mentioned were the reason for having a ministerial code in the first place?

I also think we are at best getting what she actually did through the government's spin and that sounds bad enough. If it is true that someone attempted suicide because of how she treated them then it is well beyond any "bullying" I've had to deal with over the last 30 years or so across multiple large international companies and I've had to deal with a lot of these types of complaints over the years.

(Bullying in quotes not to downplay it but to indicate in that past such behaviour would not have been classed as bullying but as harassment/intimidation/sexism or some such variant as bullying as a classification on its own is quite new.)

The Torys hoisted by their own petard for introducing standards into politics!
I have not read the report and do not know the details.

From the BBC

Quote:

Legal correspondence seen by the BBC show a junior employee at the DWP brought a formal complaint of bullying and harassment against the department, including Ms Patel, after being dismissed from her role in October 2015.
The staff member's grievance letter alleges she had previously attempted to kill herself after reporting similar allegations of workplace bullying concerning another individual in 2014, before Ms Patel was a minister.

The individual's first suicide attempt was before she had any contact with Ms. Patel. The bullying occurred before Ms. Patel was a minister. She may have been the minister when the court case was brought, and may have been when the person took the next overdose. Clearly it would be wrong to attribute the whole of this persons distress to Ms. Patel, according to the record she left two weeks after Ms. Patel came into post, but according to the above the problems had been longstanding prior to her arrival.

ETA

I wonder if any of the others against whom allegations were made have been sacked? Perhaps they were all white men?

Vixen · 23rd November 2020, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

Yes in the public sector bullying is one of the things that one can be instantly suspended for. Certainly her behaviour should have been addressed when she was earlier in her career. But I wonder if there is a racist element to this? How much do you think this is because as an Asian woman she is expected to behave in a submissive way and if she swears and shouts this has more of an impact and is less forgiven than if a man behaved this way. Mo Mowlam, a labour minister shouted and swore but this was 'endearing'. John Reid was regarded as blunt spoken. Both were white working class, was bad language and shouting culturally acceptable for them but not her? There is a phenomenon that white men get away with things that ethnic minorities are disciplined for. was her behaviour that unusual? How many ministers rant and rave at times? It took me ten seconds to find blunt spoken John Reid, and I know from having a friend who worked for MM that multiple complaints were made by her civil servants to Tony Blair about her behaviour.

But didn't the report mitigate for that? Whilst it might an historical truth that the working classes resented having woman or an ethnic minority person as their boss, so behaved in a resistant and hostile manner, nonetheless it is also well-known that in Indian culture (which is also very much class-based, as is British culture) that 'you suck up↑ and kick down ↓' . By this, it means you sycophantically crawl to your bosses but bully those lower down. So, whilst Johnson and his chums think the 'pritster' is charming and has been misunderstood, her underlings in the Civil Service may have had a very different experience of her. It is a common tactic of an office bully to surround him or herself with an inner circle.

This type of behaviour is very damaging for the victims of the bully. It can cause nervous breakdown (as happened to two friends of mine). Whilst sure, there are still people around who resent women and 'ethnics' as their bosses, I fail to see how bullying resolves this. There are proper HR procedures to deal with this. It is a cop out to say it is 'racism' that forced Patel to be a bully.

Planigale · 23rd November 2020, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

But didn't the report mitigate for that? Whilst it might an historical truth that the working classes resented having woman or an ethnic minority person as their boss, so behaved in a resistant and hostile manner, nonetheless it is also well-known that in Indian culture (which is also very much class-based, as is British culture) that 'you suck up↑ and kick down ↓' . By this, it means you sycophantically crawl to your bosses but bully those lower down. So, whilst Johnson and his chums think the 'pritster' is charming and has been misunderstood, her underlings in the Civil Service may have had a very different experience of her. It is a common tactic of an office bully to surround him or herself with an inner circle.

This type of behaviour is very damaging for the victims of the bully. It can cause nervous breakdown (as happened to two friends of mine). Whilst sure, there are still people around who resent women and 'ethnics' as their bosses, I fail to see how bullying resolves this. There are proper HR procedures to deal with this. It is a cop out to say it is 'racism' that forced Patel to be a bully.

I haven't read the report. My issue would be whether this is a correctable behaviour, if so then she needs assistance in improving her management style. If not then she should not be a minister.

Dave Rogers · 23rd November 2020, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

An 88? That would be a bit bigger than a Frigate!
That would be a Third Rate and a Ship of the Line.

True, but Trebuchet said 38, which was a very common rating for a frigate circa.1800.

Dave

Darat · 23rd November 2020, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

The Torys hoisted by their own petard for introducing standards into politics!
I have not read the report and do not know the details.

...snip...

None of us have....

Do you agree then that your use of politicians' behaviour prior to the Ministerial Code isn't a support for this case being caused by institutional racism?

And I am not saying there isn't institutional racism within the civil service and the government, just that in this case there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it.

I am happy to see whatever evidence you think supports that this case is in fact caused or heavily influenced by institutional racism.

Originally Posted by Planigale

From the BBC

The individual's first suicide attempt was before she had any contact with Ms. Patel. The bullying occurred before Ms. Patel was a minister. She may have been the minister when the court case was brought, and may have been when the person took the next overdose. Clearly it would be wrong to attribute the whole of this persons distress to Ms. Patel, according to the record she left two weeks after Ms. Patel came into post, but according to the above the problems had been longstanding prior to her arrival.

ETA

I wonder if any of the others against whom allegations were made have been sacked? Perhaps they were all white men?

Shouldn't you let the evidence lead to a conclusion ?

Darat · 23rd November 2020, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

I haven't read the report. My issue would be whether this is a correctable behaviour, if so then she needs assistance in improving her management style. If not then she should not be a minister.

Again we are all only getting titbits of information so I am dubious of the quality of the "facts" however from what we have in front of us one person who in fact has a case going to tribunal in which she is named states that she had previously been warned about her behaviour.

(That person's evidence wasn't considered by the inquiry because of the ongoing legal case.)

Captain_Swoop · 23rd November 2020, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

True, but Trebuchet said 38, which was a very common rating for a frigate circa.1800.

Dave

Haha just noticed that! could have sworn it was 88!!!!!

Squeegee Beckenheim · 23rd November 2020, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

From the BBC

The individual's first suicide attempt was before she had any contact with Ms. Patel. The bullying occurred before Ms. Patel was a minister. She may have been the minister when the court case was brought, and may have been when the person took the next overdose. Clearly it would be wrong to attribute the whole of this persons distress to Ms. Patel, according to the record she left two weeks after Ms. Patel came into post, but according to the above the problems had been longstanding prior to her arrival.

Can you link to the story, please?

Lothian · 23rd November 2020, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Can you link to the story, please?

Link

Planigale · 23rd November 2020, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Can you link to the story, please?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51705069

gypsyjackson · 23rd November 2020, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

You have seemingly equated "plain speaking" with what she did (and not alleged - the report found she had breached the code). Plus you have named politicians that were in power before the "Ministerial Code" was put in place - (which was if memory serves me right the policy of Cameron and Clegg) perhaps the politicians you mentioned were the reason for having a ministerial code in the first place?)

There’s been a written Ministerial code since at least the first time I worked in a UK Govt department, which was 1999. Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. But it’s lost in the midst of time and memory what provisions it had on bullying, harassment and discrimination, and whether those were added recently, sorry. Each PM since Brown has issued a new version on attaining office. The Johnson version is here, if you’re interested: Current Ministerial Code

Darat · 23rd November 2020, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson

There’s been a written Ministerial code since at least the first time I worked in a UK Govt department, which was 1999. Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. But it’s lost in the midst of time and memory what provisions it had on bullying, harassment and discrimination, and whether those were added recently, sorry. Each PM since Brown has issued a new version on attaining office. The Johnson version is here, if you’re interested: Current Ministerial Code

Thanks for the background info.

gypsyjackson · 23rd November 2020, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Thanks for the background info.

You’re welcome. I tried to find older versions of the Code without success, but I have now found a history of the Code at the Institute for Government website. History of the Ministerial Code

You’ll be interested in the last para:

Quote:

The most recent update was in August 2019, when Boris Johnson became prime minister. The bulk of the code is the same as the version issued by Theresa May. Prior to that, it was updated in January 2018, following misconduct allegations against former ministers Michael Fallon, Priti Patel and Damian Green. Changes were made to the section on conduct during foreign visits and to include a section about harassment and inappropriate behaviour.

So it looks like the specific BHD section was added as a result of Patel’s earlier behaviour*, along with Fallon’s and Green’s.

I am actually surprised at that, as BHD has been monitored (and sometimes even acted on!) for civil servants for a long time. Perhaps it was thought that Ministers wouldn’t stoop to such behaviour.

* ETA - actually, this could be wrong. While there were allegations of Patel’s bullying behaviour at DFID, it’s not clear these were ever raised formally under the Code. The element that she resigned from DFID over, inappropriately making contact with a foreign government, appears to have been added to the Code in the section on conduct during foreign visits.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 24th November 2020, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Link

I honestly don't know what's happened to this website recently, where it now seems that providing a citation is seen as a terrible imposition, and asking for a citation is seen as the height of unreasonableness.

People do understand the role that evidence and primary sources play in scepticism, don't they? And they have looked at the name of the website that they're posting on, haven't they? This is really, really basic stuff.

The board rules, for reference:

Quote:

The ISF has adopted a policy of treating all published material as if it was copyrighted regardless of its legal copyright status. (This includes articles, images and other media.)

[...]

All quoted material should be credited to the original author or publisher and a link provided (when available) to the original work.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 24th November 2020, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Planigale

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51705069

Thanks. I don't think there's anything in there that mitigates Patel's behaviour

ceptimus · 24th November 2020, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson

Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004.

As is the case with many prominent politicians, he resigned, and then came back. Some politicians do this multiple times. Blunkett sits in the House of Lords now, so probably won't need to resign again because "the Code" for lords seems to be rather more lax than the already pretty lax ones for ministers and MPs.

Darat · 24th November 2020, 08:57 AM

How pathetic - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55057680 “ their mass walkout from Tuesday's [NEC] virtual meeting”

They must have really clicked hard!

Darat · 24th November 2020, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson

There’s been a written Ministerial code since at least the first time I worked in a UK Govt department, which was 1999. Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. But it’s lost in the midst of time and memory what provisions it had on bullying, harassment and discrimination, and whether those were added recently, sorry. Each PM since Brown has issued a new version on attaining office. The Johnson version is here, if you’re interested: Current Ministerial Code

I vaguely recalled Blunkett’s resignation - the visa for a nanny stayed in my mind, so I’ve gone and read a few articles about it from the time. I’m astonished to learn that the bod who ran the inquiry didn’t know there was a ministerial code!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/...nkett.politics

Quote:

...snip....

Sir Alan told MPs earlier this month: "Such as I do know about it are matters I have learned since I started the inquiry and are certainly not things that I knew when I was asked to undertake it.'

He also disclosed that John Gieve, permanent secretary at the Home Office, who asked him to conduct the inquiry never mentioned the existence of the code.

...snip...

At least things seem to have changed and everyone knows about the code now, even if they do breach it!

Nessie · 24th November 2020, 09:46 AM

Its all about who you know and are in favour with. Patel is now totally beholden to Johnson.

Darat · 26th November 2020, 05:14 AM

Trying to check what tier I am in...

The Don · 26th November 2020, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Trying to check what tier I am in...

What a pathetic mess

zooterkin · 26th November 2020, 05:41 AM

What tier am I in? Latest Covid rules in England post-lockdown

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...land-local-map

Darat · 26th November 2020, 09:18 AM

I suspect the lookup website had a few more visitors than usual when I was trying. No one could have predicted that...

Dave Rogers · 26th November 2020, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I suspect the lookup website had a few more visitors than usual when I was trying. No one could have predicted that...

Well, except Dominic Cummings, who is probably going to predict it some time in the next couple of days.

Dave

Darat · 26th November 2020, 09:22 AM

Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine?

Wudang · 26th November 2020, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Well, except Dominic Cummings, who is probably going to predict it some time in the next couple of days.

Dave

Gov.uk totally ripped off Dominic Cummings.

eta: Conjugation. Should that be "Gov.uk is going to have totally ripped off Dominic Cummings."?

P.J. Denyer · 26th November 2020, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine?

I think it actually depends on the reason for the journey. Okay if for work otherwise not sure.

ceptimus · 26th November 2020, 10:10 AM

I'm in a Tier 3 area, but I can walk to a pub half a mile away that's over the county border in Tier 2. Not that I would, of course - I've not been in a pub or restaurant since January - but plenty of my neighbours will make the journey. They wouldn't walk, though - they use their cars for any journey more than a couple of hundred yards.

PPL · 26th November 2020, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

I'm in a Tier 3 area, but I can walk to a pub half a mile away that's over the county border in Tier 2. Not that I would, of course - I've not been in a pub or restaurant since January - but plenty of my neighbours will make the journey. They wouldn't walk, though - they use their cars for any journey more than a couple of hundred yards.

<--- sorry I don't have anything more constructive than that to contribute. Some of my own neighbours won't walk to the end of the street.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 26th November 2020, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine?

Yes according to this its ok to pass through tier 3 as pat of a longer journey

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-b1761760.html

Originally Posted by ceptimus

I'm in a Tier 3 area, but I can walk to a pub half a mile away that's over the county border in Tier 2. Not that I would, of course - I've not been in a pub or restaurant since January - but plenty of my neighbours will make the journey. They wouldn't walk, though - they use their cars for any journey more than a couple of hundred yards.

Not if you are following the rules you can't. you aren't allowed to travel to a tier 3 area from a tier 2 or vice versa.

Tolls · 27th November 2020, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Yes according to this its ok to pass through tier 3 as pat of a longer journey

Unless someone gets on at Slough, in which case you all have ot go home again.

I may have made that bit up.

Dave Rogers · 27th November 2020, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

Unless someone gets on at Slough, in which case you all have ot go home again.

I think that's only an applicable rule when quadruple reverse shunts are enabled, though Wimbledon is still a valid move.

Dave

catsmate · 27th November 2020, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I suspect the lookup website had a few more visitors than usual when I was trying. No one could have predicted that...

This is why sensible organisations do capacity forecasting and planning and use cloud hosting that can upscale rapidly when needed. Simples.

catsmate · 27th November 2020, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine?

Well, as a general principle, don't enter Slough.....

Is a railway station a "public space"? If so my quick skim of the UK's rules suggest only six people may be there at once.

Pixel42 · 27th November 2020, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

I think that's only an applicable rule when quadruple reverse shunts are enabled, though Wimbledon is still a valid move.

Dave

Unless you're in nip, of course.

Darat · 27th November 2020, 11:26 AM

The Guardian: Huge wealth of Rishi Sunak's family not declared in ministerial register.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...erial-register

One had wondered how he made it to Chancellor so young.

23rd November 2020, 04:26 AM	#401
Planigale Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 4,389	Originally Posted by Darat You have seemingly equated "plain speaking" with what she did (and not alleged - the report found she had breached the code). Plus you have named politicians that were in power before the "Ministerial Code" was put in place - (which was if memory serves me right the policy of Cameron and Clegg) perhaps the politicians you mentioned were the reason for having a ministerial code in the first place? I also think we are at best getting what she actually did through the government's spin and that sounds bad enough. If it is true that someone attempted suicide because of how she treated them then it is well beyond any "bullying" I've had to deal with over the last 30 years or so across multiple large international companies and I've had to deal with a lot of these types of complaints over the years. (Bullying in quotes not to downplay it but to indicate in that past such behaviour would not have been classed as bullying but as harassment/intimidation/sexism or some such variant as bullying as a classification on its own is quite new.) The Torys hoisted by their own petard for introducing standards into politics! I have not read the report and do not know the details. From the BBC Quote: Legal correspondence seen by the BBC show a junior employee at the DWP brought a formal complaint of bullying and harassment against the department, including Ms Patel, after being dismissed from her role in October 2015. The staff member's grievance letter alleges she had previously attempted to kill herself after reporting similar allegations of workplace bullying concerning another individual in 2014, before Ms Patel was a minister. The individual's first suicide attempt was before she had any contact with Ms. Patel. The bullying occurred before Ms. Patel was a minister. She may have been the minister when the court case was brought, and may have been when the person took the next overdose. Clearly it would be wrong to attribute the whole of this persons distress to Ms. Patel, according to the record she left two weeks after Ms. Patel came into post, but according to the above the problems had been longstanding prior to her arrival. ETA I wonder if any of the others against whom allegations were made have been sacked? Perhaps they were all white men?
	Last edited by Planigale; 23rd November 2020 at 04:27 AM.

23rd November 2020, 04:49 AM	#402
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 19,635	Originally Posted by Planigale Yes in the public sector bullying is one of the things that one can be instantly suspended for. Certainly her behaviour should have been addressed when she was earlier in her career. But I wonder if there is a racist element to this? How much do you think this is because as an Asian woman she is expected to behave in a submissive way and if she swears and shouts this has more of an impact and is less forgiven than if a man behaved this way. Mo Mowlam, a labour minister shouted and swore but this was 'endearing'. John Reid was regarded as blunt spoken. Both were white working class, was bad language and shouting culturally acceptable for them but not her? There is a phenomenon that white men get away with things that ethnic minorities are disciplined for. was her behaviour that unusual? How many ministers rant and rave at times? It took me ten seconds to find blunt spoken John Reid, and I know from having a friend who worked for MM that multiple complaints were made by her civil servants to Tony Blair about her behaviour. But didn't the report mitigate for that? Whilst it might an historical truth that the working classes resented having woman or an ethnic minority person as their boss, so behaved in a resistant and hostile manner, nonetheless it is also well-known that in Indian culture (which is also very much class-based, as is British culture) that 'you suck up↑ and kick down ↓' . By this, it means you sycophantically crawl to your bosses but bully those lower down. So, whilst Johnson and his chums think the 'pritster' is charming and has been misunderstood, her underlings in the Civil Service may have had a very different experience of her. It is a common tactic of an office bully to surround him or herself with an inner circle. This type of behaviour is very damaging for the victims of the bully. It can cause nervous breakdown (as happened to two friends of mine). Whilst sure, there are still people around who resent women and 'ethnics' as their bosses, I fail to see how bullying resolves this. There are proper HR procedures to deal with this. It is a cop out to say it is 'racism' that forced Patel to be a bully.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

23rd November 2020, 05:06 AM	#404
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 31,706	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop An 88? That would be a bit bigger than a Frigate! That would be a Third Rate and a Ship of the Line. True, but Trebuchet said 38, which was a very common rating for a frigate circa.1800. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

23rd November 2020, 05:08 AM	#405
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	Originally Posted by Planigale The Torys hoisted by their own petard for introducing standards into politics! I have not read the report and do not know the details. ...snip... None of us have.... Do you agree then that your use of politicians' behaviour prior to the Ministerial Code isn't a support for this case being caused by institutional racism? And I am not saying there isn't institutional racism within the civil service and the government, just that in this case there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it. I am happy to see whatever evidence you think supports that this case is in fact caused or heavily influenced by institutional racism. Originally Posted by Planigale From the BBC The individual's first suicide attempt was before she had any contact with Ms. Patel. The bullying occurred before Ms. Patel was a minister. She may have been the minister when the court case was brought, and may have been when the person took the next overdose. Clearly it would be wrong to attribute the whole of this persons distress to Ms. Patel, according to the record she left two weeks after Ms. Patel came into post, but according to the above the problems had been longstanding prior to her arrival. ETA I wonder if any of the others against whom allegations were made have been sacked? Perhaps they were all white men? Shouldn't you let the evidence lead to a conclusion ?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 23rd November 2020 at 05:13 AM. Reason: you ' missing

23rd November 2020, 05:12 AM	#406
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	Originally Posted by Planigale I haven't read the report. My issue would be whether this is a correctable behaviour, if so then she needs assistance in improving her management style. If not then she should not be a minister. Again we are all only getting titbits of information so I am dubious of the quality of the "facts" however from what we have in front of us one person who in fact has a case going to tribunal in which she is named states that she had previously been warned about her behaviour. (That person's evidence wasn't considered by the inquiry because of the ongoing legal case.)
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 23rd November 2020 at 06:24 AM. Reason: not a bean

23rd November 2020, 05:05 AM	#403
Planigale Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 4,389	Originally Posted by Vixen But didn't the report mitigate for that? Whilst it might an historical truth that the working classes resented having woman or an ethnic minority person as their boss, so behaved in a resistant and hostile manner, nonetheless it is also well-known that in Indian culture (which is also very much class-based, as is British culture) that 'you suck up↑ and kick down ↓' . By this, it means you sycophantically crawl to your bosses but bully those lower down. So, whilst Johnson and his chums think the 'pritster' is charming and has been misunderstood, her underlings in the Civil Service may have had a very different experience of her. It is a common tactic of an office bully to surround him or herself with an inner circle. This type of behaviour is very damaging for the victims of the bully. It can cause nervous breakdown (as happened to two friends of mine). Whilst sure, there are still people around who resent women and 'ethnics' as their bosses, I fail to see how bullying resolves this. There are proper HR procedures to deal with this. It is a cop out to say it is 'racism' that forced Patel to be a bully. I haven't read the report. My issue would be whether this is a correctable behaviour, if so then she needs assistance in improving her management style. If not then she should not be a minister.

23rd November 2020, 06:23 AM	#407
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 30,151	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers True, but Trebuchet said 38, which was a very common rating for a frigate circa.1800. Dave Haha just noticed that! could have sworn it was 88!!!!!

23rd November 2020, 07:17 AM	#408
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 30,513	Originally Posted by Planigale From the BBC The individual's first suicide attempt was before she had any contact with Ms. Patel. The bullying occurred before Ms. Patel was a minister. She may have been the minister when the court case was brought, and may have been when the person took the next overdose. Clearly it would be wrong to attribute the whole of this persons distress to Ms. Patel, according to the record she left two weeks after Ms. Patel came into post, but according to the above the problems had been longstanding prior to her arrival. Can you link to the story, please?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

23rd November 2020, 07:35 AM	#409
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 15,802	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Can you link to the story, please? Link

23rd November 2020, 02:05 PM	#410
Planigale Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 4,389	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Can you link to the story, please? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51705069

23rd November 2020, 05:31 PM	#411
gypsyjackson Muse Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 958	Originally Posted by Darat You have seemingly equated "plain speaking" with what she did (and not alleged - the report found she had breached the code). Plus you have named politicians that were in power before the "Ministerial Code" was put in place - (which was if memory serves me right the policy of Cameron and Clegg) perhaps the politicians you mentioned were the reason for having a ministerial code in the first place?) There’s been a written Ministerial code since at least the first time I worked in a UK Govt department, which was 1999. Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. But it’s lost in the midst of time and memory what provisions it had on bullying, harassment and discrimination, and whether those were added recently, sorry. Each PM since Brown has issued a new version on attaining office. The Johnson version is here, if you’re interested: Current Ministerial Code
	Last edited by gypsyjackson; 23rd November 2020 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Fix link

23rd November 2020, 05:42 PM	#412
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	Originally Posted by gypsyjackson There’s been a written Ministerial code since at least the first time I worked in a UK Govt department, which was 1999. Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. But it’s lost in the midst of time and memory what provisions it had on bullying, harassment and discrimination, and whether those were added recently, sorry. Each PM since Brown has issued a new version on attaining office. The Johnson version is here, if you’re interested: Current Ministerial Code Thanks for the background info.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

23rd November 2020, 06:12 PM	#413
gypsyjackson Muse Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 958	Originally Posted by Darat Thanks for the background info. You’re welcome. I tried to find older versions of the Code without success, but I have now found a history of the Code at the Institute for Government website. History of the Ministerial Code You’ll be interested in the last para: Quote: The most recent update was in August 2019, when Boris Johnson became prime minister. The bulk of the code is the same as the version issued by Theresa May. Prior to that, it was updated in January 2018, following misconduct allegations against former ministers Michael Fallon, Priti Patel and Damian Green. Changes were made to the section on conduct during foreign visits and to include a section about harassment and inappropriate behaviour. So it looks like the specific BHD section was added as a result of Patel’s earlier behaviour, along with Fallon’s and Green’s. I am actually surprised at that, as BHD has been monitored (and sometimes even acted on!) for civil servants for a long time. Perhaps it was thought that Ministers wouldn’t stoop to such behaviour. ETA - actually, this could be wrong. While there were allegations of Patel’s bullying behaviour at DFID, it’s not clear these were ever raised formally under the Code. The element that she resigned from DFID over, inappropriately making contact with a foreign government, appears to have been added to the Code in the section on conduct during foreign visits.
	Last edited by gypsyjackson; 23rd November 2020 at 06:45 PM.

24th November 2020, 02:54 AM	#414
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 30,513	Originally Posted by Lothian Link I honestly don't know what's happened to this website recently, where it now seems that providing a citation is seen as a terrible imposition, and asking for a citation is seen as the height of unreasonableness. People do understand the role that evidence and primary sources play in scepticism, don't they? And they have looked at the name of the website that they're posting on, haven't they? This is really, really basic stuff. The board rules, for reference: Quote: The ISF has adopted a policy of treating all published material as if it was copyrighted regardless of its legal copyright status. (This includes articles, images and other media.) [...] All quoted material should be credited to the original author or publisher and a link provided (when available) to the original work.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

24th November 2020, 02:57 AM	#415
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 30,513	Originally Posted by Planigale https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51705069 Thanks. I don't think there's anything in there that mitigates Patel's behaviour
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

24th November 2020, 08:49 AM	#416
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,391	Originally Posted by gypsyjackson Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. As is the case with many prominent politicians, he resigned, and then came back. Some politicians do this multiple times. Blunkett sits in the House of Lords now, so probably won't need to resign again because "the Code" for lords seems to be rather more lax than the already pretty lax ones for ministers and MPs.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,391	Last edited by ceptimus; 24th November 2020 at 08:52 AM.

24th November 2020, 08:57 AM	#417
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	How pathetic - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55057680 “ their mass walkout from Tuesday's [NEC] virtual meeting” They must have really clicked hard!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th November 2020, 09:11 AM	#418
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	Originally Posted by gypsyjackson There’s been a written Ministerial code since at least the first time I worked in a UK Govt department, which was 1999. Blunkett resigned over a breach of the Code in 2004. But it’s lost in the midst of time and memory what provisions it had on bullying, harassment and discrimination, and whether those were added recently, sorry. Each PM since Brown has issued a new version on attaining office. The Johnson version is here, if you’re interested: Current Ministerial Code I vaguely recalled Blunkett’s resignation - the visa for a nanny stayed in my mind, so I’ve gone and read a few articles about it from the time. I’m astonished to learn that the bod who ran the inquiry didn’t know there was a ministerial code! https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/...nkett.politics Quote: ...snip.... Sir Alan told MPs earlier this month: "Such as I do know about it are matters I have learned since I started the inquiry and are certainly not things that I knew when I was asked to undertake it.' He also disclosed that John Gieve, permanent secretary at the Home Office, who asked him to conduct the inquiry never mentioned the existence of the code. ...snip... At least things seem to have changed and everyone knows about the code now, even if they do breach it!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th November 2020, 09:46 AM	#419
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 12,891	Its all about who you know and are in favour with. Patel is now totally beholden to Johnson.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

26th November 2020, 05:18 AM	#421
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 30,624	Originally Posted by Darat Trying to check what tier I am in... What a pathetic mess

26th November 2020, 05:41 AM	#422
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 47,476	What tier am I in? Latest Covid rules in England post-lockdown https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...land-local-map
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

26th November 2020, 09:18 AM	#423
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	I suspect the lookup website had a few more visitors than usual when I was trying. No one could have predicted that...
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

26th November 2020, 09:21 AM	#424
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 31,706	Originally Posted by Darat I suspect the lookup website had a few more visitors than usual when I was trying. No one could have predicted that... Well, except Dominic Cummings, who is probably going to predict it some time in the next couple of days. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

26th November 2020, 09:22 AM	#425
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

26th November 2020, 09:22 AM	#426
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,127	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Well, except Dominic Cummings, who is probably going to predict it some time in the next couple of days. Dave Gov.uk totally ripped off Dominic Cummings. eta: Conjugation. Should that be "Gov.uk is going to have totally ripped off Dominic Cummings."?
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. Last edited by Wudang; 26th November 2020 at 09:30 AM.

26th November 2020, 10:05 AM	#427
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,659	Originally Posted by Darat Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine? I think it actually depends on the reason for the journey. Okay if for work otherwise not sure.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,659	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

26th November 2020, 10:10 AM	#428
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,391	I'm in a Tier 3 area, but I can walk to a pub half a mile away that's over the county border in Tier 2. Not that I would, of course - I've not been in a pub or restaurant since January - but plenty of my neighbours will make the journey. They wouldn't walk, though - they use their cars for any journey more than a couple of hundred yards.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,391

26th November 2020, 10:26 AM	#429
PPL Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 395	Originally Posted by ceptimus I'm in a Tier 3 area, but I can walk to a pub half a mile away that's over the county border in Tier 2. Not that I would, of course - I've not been in a pub or restaurant since January - but plenty of my neighbours will make the journey. They wouldn't walk, though - they use their cars for any journey more than a couple of hundred yards. <--- sorry I don't have anything more constructive than that to contribute. Some of my own neighbours won't walk to the end of the street.
PPL Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 395

26th November 2020, 01:03 PM	#430
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,394	Originally Posted by Darat Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine? Yes according to this its ok to pass through tier 3 as pat of a longer journey https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-b1761760.html Originally Posted by ceptimus I'm in a Tier 3 area, but I can walk to a pub half a mile away that's over the county border in Tier 2. Not that I would, of course - I've not been in a pub or restaurant since January - but plenty of my neighbours will make the journey. They wouldn't walk, though - they use their cars for any journey more than a couple of hundred yards. Not if you are following the rules you can't. you aren't allowed to travel to a tier 3 area from a tier 2 or vice versa.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

27th November 2020, 01:29 AM	#431
Tolls Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,178	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Yes according to this its ok to pass through tier 3 as pat of a longer journey Unless someone gets on at Slough, in which case you all have ot go home again. I may have made that bit up.

27th November 2020, 01:47 AM	#432
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 31,706	Originally Posted by Tolls Unless someone gets on at Slough, in which case you all have ot go home again. I think that's only an applicable rule when quadruple reverse shunts are enabled, though Wimbledon is still a valid move. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

27th November 2020, 02:24 AM	#433
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,191	Originally Posted by Darat I suspect the lookup website had a few more visitors than usual when I was trying. No one could have predicted that... This is why sensible organisations do capacity forecasting and planning and use cloud hosting that can upscale rapidly when needed. Simples.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

27th November 2020, 02:28 AM	#434
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,191	Originally Posted by Darat Serious question as I'm a tad unsure, I am in a tier 2 area as is London, to travel into London has me going via Slough train station and Slough is in Tier 3. Is that journey fine? Well, as a general principle, don't enter Slough..... Is a railway station a "public space"? If so my quick skim of the UK's rules suggest only six people may be there at once.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

27th November 2020, 02:29 AM	#435
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 12,694	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I think that's only an applicable rule when quadruple reverse shunts are enabled, though Wimbledon is still a valid move. Dave Unless you're in nip, of course.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

27th November 2020, 11:26 AM	#436
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,843	The Guardian: Huge wealth of Rishi Sunak's family not declared in ministerial register. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...erial-register One had wondered how he made it to Chancellor so young.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you