[Continuation] 2020 Presidential Election part 3 - Page 86

eerok · 29th November 2020, 09:09 AM

Trump speaks out. and spouts BS as usual.

Trump slams judges' election decisions: 'What kind of a court system is this?' [foxnews.com]

Quote:

"We’re not allowed to put in our proof. They say you don’t have standing," Trump told "Sunday Morning Futures." "I would like to file one nice big beautiful lawsuit, talking about this and many other things, with tremendous proof. We have affidavits, we have hundreds and hundreds of affidavits."

"You mean as president of the United States, I don't have standing? What kind of a court system is this?"

Delvo · 29th November 2020, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

This election was a failure for Democrats in every way except the fact that Trump lost... little blue dents in the red wave.

... the people have made an unmistakable statement that they do not see the Democrats as offering what they want; the overall result is a thorough repudiation of Trump individually, and of democrats generally. And most Democrats are continuing to pay no attention to that fact.

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

What, specifically, do you suggest the Dems do about this, starting with Biden?

Identify, and fight for, policy positions which are popular and easy for the Democrats to put their stamp on in contrast with Republican positions on the same issues.

It might sound obvious, as in "Well of course that's what political parties do because that's what politics is about", but it's not what most Democrats have been doing. How often have you seen & heard any of them pushing a message of exactly what they want the government to do and why they want it to do that? (And of the little sliver of samples of that, how often was the message clear, clearly different from the Republicans', and clearly on the side of what the people want?)

And this includes not just choosing which policies to push, but even the basic concept of choosing to spend their time in public view pushing policies at all, instead of distractions like "identity politics" and insult-competitions, which don't draw votes in their direction because they don't tell voters what they would have the government actually do about issues.

newyorkguy · 29th November 2020, 09:17 AM

This was Hillary Clinton speaking to her supporters the day after the 2016 elections when she won the popular vote but, nevertheless, lost the electoral vote by the thinnest of margins, about 80,000 votes out of 120 million cast.

Quote:

“Last night I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country,” she said. “I hope that he will be a president for all of our country. I’m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we all share. Donald Trump is going to be our president,” she said, speaking at the New Yorker hotel in Manhattan. “We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead.” Guardian news link

pgwenthold · 29th November 2020, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

Trump speaks out. and spouts BS as usual.

Trump slams judges' election decisions: 'What kind of a court system is this?' [foxnews.com]

The conservatives on the SC (Scalia/Thomas especially) have really put a hammer on standing. For example, when it comes to lawsuits about the government giving tax revenue money to churches, they tend to get thrown on on standing, because tax-paying citizens don't actually have the right to sue the government when it uses tax dollars in ways that violate the constitution, and it's never been established who actually does have the right to complain.

But that's what the courts have ruled, and so we live with it. Too bad it's biting them on the ass now, although it doesn't really matter, because the courts have also ruled that the suits wouldn't get anywhere on their merits, either.

Mojo · 29th November 2020, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

https://twitter.com/JennaEllisEsq/st...003581954?s=19

There's an eventbrite link to the "public hearing" being held at a Hyatt Regency by "select members" of the AZ legislature.

Other members have noted the way they've set this up (only one party's members, held outside of the capitol without any notice) make their use of the term "public hearing" very suspect. It's a stunt for cameras.

I did a search for “Hyatt Regency Landscaping”, but didn’t manage to find it.

Skeptic Ginger · 29th November 2020, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

It's an important issue, but not the only one, by far. This goes back to your oft repeated complaint, though. Democrats are generally bad at messaging in comparison to Republicans. In the end, the pandemic was a good reason to vote against Trump, but I didn't get the impression that it was used all that well to make the issue actually pro-Biden or more generally pro-Democrat. Same for a lot else, really. Biden was sold strongly as... a decent guy. That, in reality, is incredibly tepid as a pro-Biden thing. Biden, policy-wise, was vastly better in pretty much every way. Policy was never all that much of a focus for the campaigning, though, which let the GOP try nearly unimpeded to shape the conversation about what Biden would actually push.

People were not voting about policies policies. Whenever I hear people say they like Trump's policies I want to ask them, which one? Because his policies from my perspective were trash the environment & health care and reward his rich cronies because he likes the power of doing favors for select people. He selects them from people he sees as on his level.

The Democrats were bad at messaging, that's a different issue. I'm not sure why you think the pandemic was their main message. The main message was, as you say, put a decent man in office. That worked.

Dealing with this pandemic is the most important thing right now. People can't go back to work until it's safe. And if people hadn't noticed yet that the hospitals are going to overflow, they will. Trump sycophants won't, but those people are near impossible to reach.

The bad messaging was "defund the police". They didn't really counter this well. It doesn't even make sense. It's worse than not recognizing Bernie's socialism was an easily attacked message. But there wasn't a huge movement to defund the police. BLM, yes, but 'defund the police' was a sideshow.

You can't make Biden into a rock star candidate like Obama.

ETA: Oh yeah, and Trumpers hate immigrants, Muslims, brown and black people, so I suppose those are the policies they like.

eerok · 29th November 2020, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

The conservatives on the SC (Scalia/Thomas especially) have really put a hammer on standing. For example, when it comes to lawsuits about the government giving tax revenue money to churches, they tend to get thrown on on standing, because tax-paying citizens don't actually have the right to sue the government when it uses tax dollars in ways that violate the constitution, and it's never been established who actually does have the right to complain.

But that's what the courts have ruled, and so we live with it. Too bad it's biting them on the ass now, although it doesn't really matter, because the courts have also ruled that the suits wouldn't get anywhere on their merits, either.

I think Trump still thinks he's the boss, and the boss should be able to simply order people to do things, including flipping the election in his favor. He never understood the role of POTUS. Of course, there's a long list of things he doesn't understand.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 09:58 AM

I perused the posts this morning and I didn't see anyone posting this. But if it is redundant, I apologize.

The Wisconsin recount is over. They finished in both Dane and Milwaukee counties this morning. The result?

Joe Biden gained 87 votes.

Won Wisconsin for a second time.

The final election results will be certified tomorrow.

eerok · 29th November 2020, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Dealing with this pandemic is the most important thing right now. People can't go back to work until it's safe. And if people hadn't noticed yet that the hospitals are going to overflow, they will. Trump sycophants won't, but those people are near impossible to reach.

That's true. There are too many Americans who believe covid is a scam, and this is looking to get very ugly before it's resolved. I like the idea of making covid relief payments contingent on vaccination (I'd like this in Canada as well). This would cause a lot of screaming from the right, but it'd save lives.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The bad messaging was "defund the police". They didn't really counter this well. It doesn't even make sense. It's worse than not recognizing Bernie's socialism was an easily attacked message. But there wasn't a huge movement to defund the police. BLM, yes, but 'defund the police' was a sideshow.

Yeah, that didn't go well.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You can't make Biden into a rock star candidate like Obama.

I think Biden was a good choice. I like him better now than when he won the candidacy. He's a good, solid guy who knows how to get things done. The opposite of Trump.

eerok · 29th November 2020, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I perused the posts this morning and I didn't see anyone posting this. But if it is redundant, I apologize.

The Wisconsin recount is over. They finished in both Dane and Milwaukee counties this morning. The result?

Joe Biden gained 87 votes.

Won Wisconsin for a second time.

The final election results will be certified tomorrow.

The more nails in Trump's coffin the better. I'm surprised Rudy didn't go for more legal tap dancing in Wisconsin, though at this point it wouldn't even matter. All of the key states are out of Trump's reach.

trustbutverify · 29th November 2020, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Well I disagree with this, it's overly pessimistic and not really reflective of what happened. In one hand, the Dems also over performed in Congress during the midterms, and may even take the Senate majority. It's obviously disappointing that they didn't win a few more seats, but that brings me to my next point.

pollsters this year again were people who didn't know what they were talking about and thought that Biden was going to win a landslide and the dems were going to clean up in both the House and Senate, but instead Biden merely won convincingly and dems have a real chance at holding a majority in both houses of congress, is something that's Biden's or the Dem's fault. but it was their bad projections that set unrealistic expectations that you're point out the dems couldn't meet.

they simply had terrible projections. people think Trump was a joke opponent because he's an idiot, but he wasn't. he got 73M votes, you need to realize he wasn't nearly as unpopular as you were led to believe and neither is the R party.

The pollsters weren't terrible, they used sound, well proven sampling techniques... as they did in 2016. The problem is, and was, that trumpsters lied in mass to poll questionnaires. Most probably to stick it to the deep state, or something.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The author completely misses the point of what happened. He is right that Joe Biden was uninspiring, and didn't do much of anything to get out the vote.

This election was all about Trump. I kind of like Joe Biden. He's not awful, but he's way too old to take on the Presidency. However, he has one characteristic that made him very, very, appealing.

He is not Donald Trump.

Donald Trump inspired millions of new voters who had never voted before to come out and vote. The problem is that he inspired more people to vote against him than to vote for him.

Read a George Will column for Pete's sake. George Will. Recognize that name? All my life, a Republican columnist, until 2016...or was it 2017 that he made it official. I don't remember. There are lots of people like George Will who are staunch conservatives, and solid Republicans, who would never under any circumstances vote for Donald Trump, and in many cases would do anything they could to get rid of him.

Trump's negatives were just too high to win re-election.

And we are not told that Joe Biden won, we counted the votes. Joe had more or them.

Yes, I think this election was very much a referendum on Donald Trump and that may have led to greater turnout both for the people who like him and those that despise him

However, I think the large turnout can also be attributed to the fact that states nationwide made it a hell of a lot easier to vote.

The Don · 29th November 2020, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

People were not voting about policies policies. Whenever I hear people say they like Trump's policies I want to ask them, which one? Because his policies from my perspective were trash the environment & health care and reward his rich cronies because he likes the power of doing favors for select people. He selects them from people he sees as on his level.

The Democrats were bad at messaging, that's a different issue. I'm not sure why you think the pandemic was their main message. The main message was, as you say, put a decent man in office. That worked.

Dealing with this pandemic is the most important thing right now. People can't go back to work until it's safe. And if people hadn't noticed yet that the hospitals are going to overflow, they will. Trump sycophants won't, but those people are near impossible to reach.

The bad messaging was "defund the police". They didn't really counter this well. It doesn't even make sense. It's worse than not recognizing Bernie's socialism was an easily attacked message. But there wasn't a huge movement to defund the police. BLM, yes, but 'defund the police' was a sideshow.

You can't make Biden into a rock star candidate like Obama.

ETA: Oh yeah, and Trumpers hate immigrants, Muslims, brown and black people, so I suppose those are the policies they like.

Also lower taxes - people like lower taxes.

The problem is that they also like public services which means that lower taxes and similar spending leads to ballooning deficits. Of course deficits only matter when the President has a (D) after their name.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

The more nails in Trump's coffin the better. I'm surprised Rudy didn't go for more legal tap dancing in Wisconsin, though at this point it wouldn't even matter. All of the key states are out of Trump's reach.

They desperately tried to get tens of thousands of votes tossed during the recount in Wisconsin with some Trump observers objecting to every single vote in some precincts. The tried so hard to obstruct the recount.

Meadmaker · 29th November 2020, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

I think Biden was a good choice. I like him better now than when he won the candidacy. He's a good, solid guy who knows how to get things done. The opposite of Trump.

I voted for him in 1988, so I didn't have anything against him. This time around, I thought he was too old, but was good enough. As time goes on, I think he might be best man for this time.

Mr. Rogers, but with an attitude. Basically good and decent fellow who wants to get along, but will call B.S. at the right times. That's how I see him. I think that's what we need right now. I suppose we'll find out.

Meadmaker · 29th November 2020, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

However, I think the large turnout can also be attributed to the fact that states nationwide made it a hell of a lot easier to vote.

Probably.

I never found it very difficult to vote in the past, but I suppose for some people it must have been, especially the famous long lines in the inner cities issues.

rdaneel · 29th November 2020, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

I think Trump still thinks he's the boss, and the boss should be able to simply order people to do things, including flipping the election in his favor. He never understood the role of POTUS. Of course, there's a long list of things he doesn't understand.

I always imagine Trump sees himself as Don Corleone, The Big Boss only willing to do things for people who kiss his... ring.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Probably.

I never found it very difficult to vote in the past, but I suppose for some people it must have been, especially the famous long lines in the inner cities issues.

It really depends on where you live. It's been easy in Washington State for two decades with vote by mail. Get your ballot in the mail. Fill it out over a couple of weeks and drop it in a mailbox or official drop boxes at public buildings like libraries or fire departments. In many Republican states voting was in person and on a specific day. The pandemic resulted in states nationwide implementing vote by mail although the GOP still made it harder in some places.

Paul2 · 29th November 2020, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

a lot of stuff never happened until it happened

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

trustbutverify · 29th November 2020, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Identify, and fight for, policy positions which are popular and easy for the Democrats to put their stamp on in contrast with Republican positions on the same issues.

Which is exactly what McGovern did in 1972. You think the environment is better for sober policy discussion now?

Paul2 · 29th November 2020, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Huh? Why would she do that? I'm guessing at some point she will inform the President of the Senate, or possibly the Governor of California, that she intends to resign her Senate seat effective noon on January 20, 2021.

ETA: Unless she works out something with Newsom, and they arrange something. The point is she won't leave that seat vacant. If Newsom can make an immediate appointment, she'll work something out with him.

And she'll be back in the Senate the first time it convenes after January 20, but this time the senators will be calling her "Madam President."

The Senate is back in session on Jan. 3.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 11:43 AM

More on Dane County
Summary of recount

Biden: 260,094

Trump: 78,754

Kanye: 67

Others: 5,746

Certified by board of canvassers 3-0

Trump net gain: 45

MRC_Hans · 29th November 2020, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I voted for him in 1988, so I didn't have anything against him. This time around, I thought he was too old, but was good enough. As time goes on, I think he might be best man for this time.

Mr. Rogers, but with an attitude. Basically good and decent fellow who wants to get along, but will call B.S. at the right times. That's how I see him. I think that's what we need right now. I suppose we'll find out.

The way I see it, from afar, is that Biden is 'mostly harmless' and, I hope, chosen by the Democrats for exactly that. He is the person only hard-core trumpers can object to. And it seems to have worked, but NOW, the real fight starts: Now all Trump's lies must be challenged. Now, the DEMs must find their next candidate. Now they must find out how they can counter a lying, cheating opponent.

And we can hope, such decent people as must exist among Republicans must consider and decide where they will go forward.

Hans

Roger Ramjets · 29th November 2020, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Now all Trump's lies must be challenged. Now, the DEMs must find their next candidate. Now they must find out how they can counter a lying, cheating opponent.

You think Republicans will keep digging that hole, now that Trump is a LOSER? I hope so.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 12:57 PM

Another lawsuit was filed yesterday in Wisconsin. Brought by Dean Mueller asking for an emergency injunction by the State Supreme Court to block certification of the 2020 Presidential Election.

His complaint? He says the use of drop boxes was unconstitutional. That the Wisconsin Elections Commission cannot authorize this. Only the State legislature can.

The remedy he is asking?

That any ballots using the drop boxes to be illegal.

or

That the State must hold another election before December 14.

or

Have the State legislature choose the electors.

I'm really curious if the Wisconsin Supreme Court would even hear such a complaint given the timing. This issue could have been raised before the election but wasn't and the remedies is to disenfranchise a hell of a lot of voters or all Wisconsin voters.

Watching Legal Eagle's podcast tells me that the Doctrine of laches is what I'm searching for in describing Dean Mueller's attempt to reverse an election post hoc on a technicality.

The Don · 29th November 2020, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

You think Republicans will keep digging that hole, now that Trump is a LOSER? I hope so.

75 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office.

Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate.

MRC_Hans · 29th November 2020, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

75 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office.

Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate.

We can hope that, in spite of Sleepy Joe (much as I hate it, I must admit that that nickname is not at all far off), the Democrat party is realizing that the battle is on, and they must start fighting ... now.

Hans

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

7574 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office.

Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate.

Pedantic correction. Actually, not even 74 million, but Trump might get there.

Aridas · 29th November 2020, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

That’s quite the dilemma.

It might have seemed like a good idea for Biden to have a press conference where he clearly laid out why he was NOT in any way a socialist. But knowing human psychology, it would have probably just cemented the false narrative that he WAS a socialist - why else would he spend so much time talking about it? Same for “open borders” or “destroying the suburbs” or “hurting God”. I think that’s why “The Big Lie” works as well as it does.

Not *quite* that big of a dilemma, honestly. I wouldn't have ever recommended a press conference that dealt with why he was "not a socialist," to be clear. More focus on, for example, the variety of ways that he AND the Democrats are pushing for more good paying jobs across America would not have been amiss, though, at all. That would serve multiple uses, regardless, helping to create a much truer counter-narrative to the Republican lies.

Olmstead · 29th November 2020, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Not *quite* that big of a dilemma, honestly. I wouldn't have ever recommended a press conference that dealt with why he was "not a socialist," to be clear. More focus on, for example, the variety of ways that he AND the Democrats are pushing for more good paying jobs across America would not have been amiss, though, at all. That would serve multiple uses, regardless, helping to create a much truer counter-narrative to the Republican lies.

It's very hard to beat "I'll bring back all the jobs you want."

Lurch · 29th November 2020, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

Nonsense

They see the death of democracy, and worse, in a stolen election.

Like Dominion's Antifa Eric Coomer

Like the doughy Trump supporters who wore shirts exclaiming, "I'd rather be Russian than Democrat." An expression that a generation ago would have them got shot, or at least beat into a coma.

Aridas · 29th November 2020, 02:07 PM

Mildly interesting minor story.

Trump supporter suing Houston group over failure to prove voter fraud in 2020 election

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Mildly interesting minor story.

Trump supporter suing Houston group over failure to prove voter fraud in 2020 election

It's hilarious.

Total con job.

Norman Alexander · 29th November 2020, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It's hilarious.

Total con job.

And it only cost him $2.5 million.

Bubba, you can learn this lesson for free here on the forum...if you believe in free education, that is.

Skeptic Ginger · 29th November 2020, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

75 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office.

Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate.

You seem to be going from one 'woe is the world' to another as soon as your current woe turns out not to be one.

I don't get it.

acbytesla · 29th November 2020, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

And it only cost him $2.5 million.

Bubba, you can learn this lesson for free here on the forum...if you believe in free education, that is.

They took his money, filed 4 lawsuits and then dismissed them before any of them went to court. This was millions of dollars of legal costs?

Nice job if you can get it.

Norman Alexander · 29th November 2020, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

They took his and a lot of other suckers' money, filed 4 lawsuits and then dismissed them before any of them went to court. This was millions of dollars of legal costs?

Nice job if you can get it.

The Bannon game.

slyjoe · 29th November 2020, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Mildly interesting minor story.

Trump supporter suing Houston group over failure to prove voter fraud in 2020 election

I hope the "Fred Eshelman Move^TM" will be remembered for two things:

1. First, he was conned out of $2M, then later $500K when the conmen told him they needed more because they already spent it.

2. Second, he wants his money back. He spends a lot of money and gets a judgement in his favor that bankrupts the organization that conned him.

Matthew Ellard · 29th November 2020, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

Thats what the cam footage looked like to me

You haven't seen the footage Bubba. That's why you couldn't link to it. You got caught making up a story again.

The police's affidavit says the gun was in his holster matching the video evidence.

Fast Eddie B · 29th November 2020, 03:03 PM

I was just pushed the news that some top Republicans are encouraging Trump to attend Biden’s inauguration, “...for the good of the party”.

I, for one, hope he doesn’t attend. If he does, much of the coverage and attention may end up being about Trump - how he does or doesn’t behave, that sort of thing. It can only detract from the solemnity and solemnity of Biden’s swearing in.

Just Stay Away!™️

29th November 2020, 09:09 AM	#3401
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,476	Trump speaks out. and spouts BS as usual. Trump slams judges' election decisions: 'What kind of a court system is this?' [foxnews.com] Quote: "We’re not allowed to put in our proof. They say you don’t have standing," Trump told "Sunday Morning Futures." "I would like to file one nice big beautiful lawsuit, talking about this and many other things, with tremendous proof. We have affidavits, we have hundreds and hundreds of affidavits." "You mean as president of the United States, I don't have standing? What kind of a court system is this?"
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

29th November 2020, 09:12 AM	#3402
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,206	Originally Posted by Delvo This election was a failure for Democrats in every way except the fact that Trump lost... little blue dents in the red wave. ... the people have made an unmistakable statement that they do not see the Democrats as offering what they want; the overall result is a thorough repudiation of Trump individually, and of democrats generally. And most Democrats are continuing to pay no attention to that fact. Originally Posted by trustbutverify What, specifically, do you suggest the Dems do about this, starting with Biden? Identify, and fight for, policy positions which are popular and easy for the Democrats to put their stamp on in contrast with Republican positions on the same issues. It might sound obvious, as in "Well of course that's what political parties do because that's what politics is about", but it's not what most Democrats have been doing. How often have you seen & heard any of them pushing a message of exactly what they want the government to do and why they want it to do that? (And of the little sliver of samples of that, how often was the message clear, clearly different from the Republicans', and clearly on the side of what the people want?) And this includes not just choosing which policies to push, but even the basic concept of choosing to spend their time in public view pushing policies at all, instead of distractions like "identity politics" and insult-competitions, which don't draw votes in their direction because they don't tell voters what they would have the government actually do about issues.
	Last edited by Delvo; 29th November 2020 at 09:13 AM.

29th November 2020, 09:32 AM	#3404
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,051	Originally Posted by eerok Trump speaks out. and spouts BS as usual. Trump slams judges' election decisions: 'What kind of a court system is this?' [foxnews.com] The conservatives on the SC (Scalia/Thomas especially) have really put a hammer on standing. For example, when it comes to lawsuits about the government giving tax revenue money to churches, they tend to get thrown on on standing, because tax-paying citizens don't actually have the right to sue the government when it uses tax dollars in ways that violate the constitution, and it's never been established who actually does have the right to complain. But that's what the courts have ruled, and so we live with it. Too bad it's biting them on the ass now, although it doesn't really matter, because the courts have also ruled that the suits wouldn't get anywhere on their merits, either.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

29th November 2020, 09:45 AM	#3405
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,570	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle https://twitter.com/JennaEllisEsq/st...003581954?s=19 There's an eventbrite link to the "public hearing" being held at a Hyatt Regency by "select members" of the AZ legislature. Other members have noted the way they've set this up (only one party's members, held outside of the capitol without any notice) make their use of the term "public hearing" very suspect. It's a stunt for cameras. I did a search for “Hyatt Regency Landscaping”, but didn’t manage to find it.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

29th November 2020, 09:54 AM	#3406
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 85,811	Originally Posted by Aridas It's an important issue, but not the only one, by far. This goes back to your oft repeated complaint, though. Democrats are generally bad at messaging in comparison to Republicans. In the end, the pandemic was a good reason to vote against Trump, but I didn't get the impression that it was used all that well to make the issue actually pro-Biden or more generally pro-Democrat. Same for a lot else, really. Biden was sold strongly as... a decent guy. That, in reality, is incredibly tepid as a pro-Biden thing. Biden, policy-wise, was vastly better in pretty much every way. Policy was never all that much of a focus for the campaigning, though, which let the GOP try nearly unimpeded to shape the conversation about what Biden would actually push. People were not voting about policies policies. Whenever I hear people say they like Trump's policies I want to ask them, which one? Because his policies from my perspective were trash the environment & health care and reward his rich cronies because he likes the power of doing favors for select people. He selects them from people he sees as on his level. The Democrats were bad at messaging, that's a different issue. I'm not sure why you think the pandemic was their main message. The main message was, as you say, put a decent man in office. That worked. Dealing with this pandemic is the most important thing right now. People can't go back to work until it's safe. And if people hadn't noticed yet that the hospitals are going to overflow, they will. Trump sycophants won't, but those people are near impossible to reach. The bad messaging was "defund the police". They didn't really counter this well. It doesn't even make sense. It's worse than not recognizing Bernie's socialism was an easily attacked message. But there wasn't a huge movement to defund the police. BLM, yes, but 'defund the police' was a sideshow. You can't make Biden into a rock star candidate like Obama. ETA: Oh yeah, and Trumpers hate immigrants, Muslims, brown and black people, so I suppose those are the policies they like.
	__________________ Trump lost and he knows it. Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th November 2020 at 09:59 AM.

29th November 2020, 09:55 AM	#3407
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,476	Originally Posted by pgwenthold The conservatives on the SC (Scalia/Thomas especially) have really put a hammer on standing. For example, when it comes to lawsuits about the government giving tax revenue money to churches, they tend to get thrown on on standing, because tax-paying citizens don't actually have the right to sue the government when it uses tax dollars in ways that violate the constitution, and it's never been established who actually does have the right to complain. But that's what the courts have ruled, and so we live with it. Too bad it's biting them on the ass now, although it doesn't really matter, because the courts have also ruled that the suits wouldn't get anywhere on their merits, either. I think Trump still thinks he's the boss, and the boss should be able to simply order people to do things, including flipping the election in his favor. He never understood the role of POTUS. Of course, there's a long list of things he doesn't understand.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

29th November 2020, 09:58 AM	#3408
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	I perused the posts this morning and I didn't see anyone posting this. But if it is redundant, I apologize. The Wisconsin recount is over. They finished in both Dane and Milwaukee counties this morning. The result? Joe Biden gained 87 votes. Won Wisconsin for a second time. The final election results will be certified tomorrow.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th November 2020, 10:04 AM	#3409
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,476	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Dealing with this pandemic is the most important thing right now. People can't go back to work until it's safe. And if people hadn't noticed yet that the hospitals are going to overflow, they will. Trump sycophants won't, but those people are near impossible to reach. That's true. There are too many Americans who believe covid is a scam, and this is looking to get very ugly before it's resolved. I like the idea of making covid relief payments contingent on vaccination (I'd like this in Canada as well). This would cause a lot of screaming from the right, but it'd save lives. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger The bad messaging was "defund the police". They didn't really counter this well. It doesn't even make sense. It's worse than not recognizing Bernie's socialism was an easily attacked message. But there wasn't a huge movement to defund the police. BLM, yes, but 'defund the police' was a sideshow. Yeah, that didn't go well. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger You can't make Biden into a rock star candidate like Obama. I think Biden was a good choice. I like him better now than when he won the candidacy. He's a good, solid guy who knows how to get things done. The opposite of Trump.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

29th November 2020, 10:10 AM	#3410
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,476	Originally Posted by acbytesla I perused the posts this morning and I didn't see anyone posting this. But if it is redundant, I apologize. The Wisconsin recount is over. They finished in both Dane and Milwaukee counties this morning. The result? Joe Biden gained 87 votes. Won Wisconsin for a second time. The final election results will be certified tomorrow. The more nails in Trump's coffin the better. I'm surprised Rudy didn't go for more legal tap dancing in Wisconsin, though at this point it wouldn't even matter. All of the key states are out of Trump's reach.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

29th November 2020, 10:11 AM	#3411
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,794	Originally Posted by dirtywick Well I disagree with this, it's overly pessimistic and not really reflective of what happened. In one hand, the Dems also over performed in Congress during the midterms, and may even take the Senate majority. It's obviously disappointing that they didn't win a few more seats, but that brings me to my next point. pollsters this year again were people who didn't know what they were talking about and thought that Biden was going to win a landslide and the dems were going to clean up in both the House and Senate, but instead Biden merely won convincingly and dems have a real chance at holding a majority in both houses of congress, is something that's Biden's or the Dem's fault. but it was their bad projections that set unrealistic expectations that you're point out the dems couldn't meet. they simply had terrible projections. people think Trump was a joke opponent because he's an idiot, but he wasn't. he got 73M votes, you need to realize he wasn't nearly as unpopular as you were led to believe and neither is the R party. The pollsters weren't terrible, they used sound, well proven sampling techniques... as they did in 2016. The problem is, and was, that trumpsters lied in mass to poll questionnaires. Most probably to stick it to the deep state, or something.
	__________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage

29th November 2020, 10:15 AM	#3412
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Originally Posted by Meadmaker The author completely misses the point of what happened. He is right that Joe Biden was uninspiring, and didn't do much of anything to get out the vote. This election was all about Trump. I kind of like Joe Biden. He's not awful, but he's way too old to take on the Presidency. However, he has one characteristic that made him very, very, appealing. He is not Donald Trump. Donald Trump inspired millions of new voters who had never voted before to come out and vote. The problem is that he inspired more people to vote against him than to vote for him. Read a George Will column for Pete's sake. George Will. Recognize that name? All my life, a Republican columnist, until 2016...or was it 2017 that he made it official. I don't remember. There are lots of people like George Will who are staunch conservatives, and solid Republicans, who would never under any circumstances vote for Donald Trump, and in many cases would do anything they could to get rid of him. Trump's negatives were just too high to win re-election. And we are not told that Joe Biden won, we counted the votes. Joe had more or them. Yes, I think this election was very much a referendum on Donald Trump and that may have led to greater turnout both for the people who like him and those that despise him However, I think the large turnout can also be attributed to the fact that states nationwide made it a hell of a lot easier to vote.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th November 2020, 10:31 AM	#3413
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,014	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger People were not voting about policies policies. Whenever I hear people say they like Trump's policies I want to ask them, which one? Because his policies from my perspective were trash the environment & health care and reward his rich cronies because he likes the power of doing favors for select people. He selects them from people he sees as on his level. The Democrats were bad at messaging, that's a different issue. I'm not sure why you think the pandemic was their main message. The main message was, as you say, put a decent man in office. That worked. Dealing with this pandemic is the most important thing right now. People can't go back to work until it's safe. And if people hadn't noticed yet that the hospitals are going to overflow, they will. Trump sycophants won't, but those people are near impossible to reach. The bad messaging was "defund the police". They didn't really counter this well. It doesn't even make sense. It's worse than not recognizing Bernie's socialism was an easily attacked message. But there wasn't a huge movement to defund the police. BLM, yes, but 'defund the police' was a sideshow. You can't make Biden into a rock star candidate like Obama. ETA: Oh yeah, and Trumpers hate immigrants, Muslims, brown and black people, so I suppose those are the policies they like. Also lower taxes - people like lower taxes. The problem is that they also like public services which means that lower taxes and similar spending leads to ballooning deficits. Of course deficits only matter when the President has a (D) after their name.

29th November 2020, 10:34 AM	#3414
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Originally Posted by eerok The more nails in Trump's coffin the better. I'm surprised Rudy didn't go for more legal tap dancing in Wisconsin, though at this point it wouldn't even matter. All of the key states are out of Trump's reach. They desperately tried to get tens of thousands of votes tossed during the recount in Wisconsin with some Trump observers objecting to every single vote in some precincts. The tried so hard to obstruct the recount.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th November 2020, 10:36 AM	#3415
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 24,758	Originally Posted by eerok I think Biden was a good choice. I like him better now than when he won the candidacy. He's a good, solid guy who knows how to get things done. The opposite of Trump. I voted for him in 1988, so I didn't have anything against him. This time around, I thought he was too old, but was good enough. As time goes on, I think he might be best man for this time. Mr. Rogers, but with an attitude. Basically good and decent fellow who wants to get along, but will call B.S. at the right times. That's how I see him. I think that's what we need right now. I suppose we'll find out.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

29th November 2020, 10:38 AM	#3416
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 24,758	Originally Posted by acbytesla However, I think the large turnout can also be attributed to the fact that states nationwide made it a hell of a lot easier to vote. Probably. I never found it very difficult to vote in the past, but I suppose for some people it must have been, especially the famous long lines in the inner cities issues.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

29th November 2020, 10:58 AM	#3417
rdaneel Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I'M IN THE PHONEBOOK! I'M SOMEBODY!!! Posts: 4,208	Originally Posted by eerok I think Trump still thinks he's the boss, and the boss should be able to simply order people to do things, including flipping the election in his favor. He never understood the role of POTUS. Of course, there's a long list of things he doesn't understand. I always imagine Trump sees himself as Don Corleone, The Big Boss only willing to do things for people who kiss his... ring.
	__________________ "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor "I heard some things I can't prove from someone I don't know, and God dammit, that's enough for me." - Penny Arcade "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!" - Agatha Heterodyne

29th November 2020, 10:58 AM	#3418
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Probably. I never found it very difficult to vote in the past, but I suppose for some people it must have been, especially the famous long lines in the inner cities issues. It really depends on where you live. It's been easy in Washington State for two decades with vote by mail. Get your ballot in the mail. Fill it out over a couple of weeks and drop it in a mailbox or official drop boxes at public buildings like libraries or fire departments. In many Republican states voting was in person and on a specific day. The pandemic resulted in states nationwide implementing vote by mail although the GOP still made it harder in some places.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th November 2020, 11:37 AM	#3419
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,469	Originally Posted by dirtywick a lot of stuff never happened until it happened Do you have any evidence to back this up?
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,469	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

29th November 2020, 11:39 AM	#3420
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,794	Originally Posted by Delvo Identify, and fight for, policy positions which are popular and easy for the Democrats to put their stamp on in contrast with Republican positions on the same issues. Which is exactly what McGovern did in 1972. You think the environment is better for sober policy discussion now?
	__________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage

29th November 2020, 11:42 AM	#3421
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,469	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Huh? Why would she do that? I'm guessing at some point she will inform the President of the Senate, or possibly the Governor of California, that she intends to resign her Senate seat effective noon on January 20, 2021. ETA: Unless she works out something with Newsom, and they arrange something. The point is she won't leave that seat vacant. If Newsom can make an immediate appointment, she'll work something out with him. And she'll be back in the Senate the first time it convenes after January 20, but this time the senators will be calling her "Madam President." The Senate is back in session on Jan. 3.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,469	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

29th November 2020, 11:43 AM	#3422
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	More on Dane County Summary of recount Biden: 260,094 Trump: 78,754 Kanye: 67 Others: 5,746 Certified by board of canvassers 3-0 Trump net gain: 45
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 29th November 2020 at 11:45 AM.

29th November 2020, 11:49 AM	#3423
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,323	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I voted for him in 1988, so I didn't have anything against him. This time around, I thought he was too old, but was good enough. As time goes on, I think he might be best man for this time. Mr. Rogers, but with an attitude. Basically good and decent fellow who wants to get along, but will call B.S. at the right times. That's how I see him. I think that's what we need right now. I suppose we'll find out. The way I see it, from afar, is that Biden is 'mostly harmless' and, I hope, chosen by the Democrats for exactly that. He is the person only hard-core trumpers can object to. And it seems to have worked, but NOW, the real fight starts: Now all Trump's lies must be challenged. Now, the DEMs must find their next candidate. Now they must find out how they can counter a lying, cheating opponent. And we can hope, such decent people as must exist among Republicans must consider and decide where they will go forward. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

29th November 2020, 12:42 PM	#3424
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,271	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans Now all Trump's lies must be challenged. Now, the DEMs must find their next candidate. Now they must find out how they can counter a lying, cheating opponent. You think Republicans will keep digging that hole, now that Trump is a LOSER? I hope so.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

29th November 2020, 12:57 PM	#3425
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Another lawsuit was filed yesterday in Wisconsin. Brought by Dean Mueller asking for an emergency injunction by the State Supreme Court to block certification of the 2020 Presidential Election. His complaint? He says the use of drop boxes was unconstitutional. That the Wisconsin Elections Commission cannot authorize this. Only the State legislature can. The remedy he is asking? That any ballots using the drop boxes to be illegal. or That the State must hold another election before December 14. or Have the State legislature choose the electors. I'm really curious if the Wisconsin Supreme Court would even hear such a complaint given the timing. This issue could have been raised before the election but wasn't and the remedies is to disenfranchise a hell of a lot of voters or all Wisconsin voters. Watching Legal Eagle's podcast tells me that the Doctrine of laches is what I'm searching for in describing Dean Mueller's attempt to reverse an election post hoc on a technicality.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 29th November 2020 at 01:25 PM.

29th November 2020, 12:58 PM	#3426
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,014	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets You think Republicans will keep digging that hole, now that Trump is a LOSER? I hope so. 75 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office. Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate.

29th November 2020, 01:08 PM	#3427
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,323	Originally Posted by The Don 75 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office. Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate. We can hope that, in spite of Sleepy Joe (much as I hate it, I must admit that that nickname is not at all far off), the Democrat party is realizing that the battle is on, and they must start fighting ... now. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

29th November 2020, 01:12 PM	#3428
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Originally Posted by The Don 7574 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office. Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate. Pedantic correction. Actually, not even 74 million, but Trump might get there.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th November 2020, 01:38 PM	#3429
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,326	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B That’s quite the dilemma. It might have seemed like a good idea for Biden to have a press conference where he clearly laid out why he was NOT in any way a socialist. But knowing human psychology, it would have probably just cemented the false narrative that he WAS a socialist - why else would he spend so much time talking about it? Same for “open borders” or “destroying the suburbs” or “hurting God”. I think that’s why “The Big Lie” works as well as it does. Not quite that big of a dilemma, honestly. I wouldn't have ever recommended a press conference that dealt with why he was "not a socialist," to be clear. More focus on, for example, the variety of ways that he AND the Democrats are pushing for more good paying jobs across America would not have been amiss, though, at all. That would serve multiple uses, regardless, helping to create a much truer counter-narrative to the Republican lies.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

29th November 2020, 01:42 PM	#3430
Olmstead Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 345	Originally Posted by Aridas Not quite that big of a dilemma, honestly. I wouldn't have ever recommended a press conference that dealt with why he was "not a socialist," to be clear. More focus on, for example, the variety of ways that he AND the Democrats are pushing for more good paying jobs across America would not have been amiss, though, at all. That would serve multiple uses, regardless, helping to create a much truer counter-narrative to the Republican lies. It's very hard to beat "I'll bring back all the jobs you want."
Olmstead Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 345

29th November 2020, 01:52 PM	#3431
Lurch Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,637	Originally Posted by Bubba Nonsense They see the death of democracy, and worse, in a stolen election. Like Dominion's Antifa Eric Coomer Like the doughy Trump supporters who wore shirts exclaiming, "I'd rather be Russian than Democrat." An expression that a generation ago would have them got shot, or at least beat into a coma.

29th November 2020, 02:07 PM	#3432
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,326	Mildly interesting minor story. Trump supporter suing Houston group over failure to prove voter fraud in 2020 election
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 29th November 2020 at 02:09 PM.

29th November 2020, 02:12 PM	#3433
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Originally Posted by Aridas Mildly interesting minor story. Trump supporter suing Houston group over failure to prove voter fraud in 2020 election It's hilarious. Total con job.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th November 2020, 02:18 PM	#3434
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,458	Originally Posted by acbytesla It's hilarious. Total con job. And it only cost him $2.5 million. Bubba, you can learn this lesson for free here on the forum...if you believe in free education, that is.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

29th November 2020, 02:25 PM	#3435
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 85,811	Originally Posted by The Don 75 million people voted for a man who ****** up a pandemic response, crashed the economy and lied more than 30,000 times while in office. Of course they'll keep supporting him, he's box office dynamite. When the Democrats get bored and complacent in 2022 the GOP will have the house and senate. You seem to be going from one 'woe is the world' to another as soon as your current woe turns out not to be one. I don't get it.
	__________________ Trump lost and he knows it.

29th November 2020, 02:27 PM	#3436
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,938	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander And it only cost him $2.5 million. Bubba, you can learn this lesson for free here on the forum...if you believe in free education, that is. They took his money, filed 4 lawsuits and then dismissed them before any of them went to court. This was millions of dollars of legal costs? Nice job if you can get it.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .