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Tags Congress incidents , Emmanuel Cleaver , linguistics , prayer incidents , religion and politics

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Old 4th January 2021, 09:46 AM   #1
xjx388
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Amen and a-woman

Maybe, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't that big a deal but I do think it's worthy of discussion. Rep.Emmanuel Cleaver D-MO closed the Congress' opening prayer with "Amen and a-woman."

Now, I am all for inclusivity and recognizing gender inequalities and all that; but, "Amen" has nothing to do with gender or inclusivity. I think it's a bit ridiculous and over-the-top to use a completely made up "term" like "a-woman" as if that is somehow, in any way, leveling the playing field for women or even just recognizing the equality of women. I think it's a moment that conservatives can use to make progressiveism in general (I linked to Fox News because they are all over that angle) look radical and stupid. It's not helping anything at all and only adding fuel to further division.

Of course, I think the whole idea of an "opening prayer" is a bit ridiculous but that's a whole 'nother discussion...
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:49 AM   #2
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What? Is he really that dumb?
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:50 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Of course, I think the whole idea of an "opening prayer" is a bit ridiculous but that's a whole 'nother discussion...
No, it's not. It is the WHOLE discussion.

If you are going to insist on having an opening prayer, then more than anything, you can't dictate how that prayer is said.

You can't have an opening prayer and then complain that the person didn't pray right.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:51 AM   #4
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Politically correct syllables.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:52 AM   #5
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Lighten up?
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:00 AM   #6
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Can you kneel during the opening prayer?
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:00 AM   #7
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Opening prayer ? Oh, USA, you're funny. Anyway, good joke with the a-woman.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:01 AM   #8
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Meaningless virtue signalling and empty symbolism. There's a lot of it about lately.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:04 AM   #9
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Poor etymology, if you ask me. The prefix 'A' implies negation, so in effect he's practising positive discrimination in favour of men.

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Old 4th January 2021, 10:05 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Maybe, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't that big a deal but I do think it's worthy of discussion. Rep.Emmanuel Cleaver D-MO closed the Congress' opening prayer with "Amen and a-woman."

Now, I am all for inclusivity and recognizing gender inequalities and all that; but, "Amen" has nothing to do with gender or inclusivity. I think it's a bit ridiculous and over-the-top to use a completely made up "term" like "a-woman" as if that is somehow, in any way, leveling the playing field for women or even just recognizing the equality of women. I think it's a moment that conservatives can use to make progressiveism in general (I linked to Fox News because they are all over that angle) look radical and stupid. It's not helping anything at all and only adding fuel to further division.

Of course, I think the whole idea of an "opening prayer" is a bit ridiculous but that's a whole 'nother discussion...
Regarding the highlighted, of course they are! It's not like there's this whole huge story about the President they've bent over backwards to support maybe committing (another) crime. Let's pretend that isn't happening and make hay over something so trivial!

Regarding the story Fox would rather we focus on instead, first it's not like "amen" is not a made up word. The definition from dictionary.com is literally "an utterance of “amen.”" And secondly, without any information on the prayer itself, how do we know it wasn't intended to be a silly word play?
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:05 AM   #11
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When you virtue signal during an action as meaningless as praying does it cancel out?
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:06 AM   #12
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I've heard plenty of feminist unironically used the word "herstory" instead of "history."
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:37 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
No, it's not. It is the WHOLE discussion.

If you are going to insist on having an opening prayer, then more than anything, you can't dictate how that prayer is said.

You can't have an opening prayer and then complain that the person didn't pray right.
I would say that, if one is sincerely Christian and prayer is at all meaningful, "praying right," is of paramount importance. To people that care (ostensibly any Christian; but, in this context, especially Conservative Christians) corruption of prayer for political purposes is sacreligious.

You don't have to convince me that Conservative Christians are hypocritical, etc. All I'm saying is that this is an easy way to give them a talking point that plays well with their base and even with some sincere Christians on the left. It was completely unnecessary and doesn't serve the cause of equality.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Regarding the highlighted, of course they are! It's not like there's this whole huge story about the President they've bent over backwards to support maybe committing (another) crime. Let's pretend that isn't happening and make hay over something so trivial!

Regarding the story Fox would rather we focus on instead, first it's not like "amen" is not a made up word. The definition from dictionary.com is literally "an utterance of “amen.”" And secondly, without any information on the prayer itself, how do we know it wasn't intended to be a silly word play?
"Amen" is not a "made up word."* It's in the earliest bibles and derives from Hebrew meaning "so be it." It's a huge part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. And I would say that for anyone who is a sincere Christian (or wants to play at sincerity to score points), "silly word play," does not belong in prayer.

As I said, my real point has little to do with the religious aspects, whether or not prayer even belongs in politics, etc. The point is that it's an own goal for the progressive movement and doesn't serve the cause of gender equality.



*Every word is "made up" to represent something at some point in it's etymology so let's not go down that semantic rabbit hole, please.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I would say that, if one is sincerely Christian and prayer is at all meaningful, "praying right," is of paramount importance.
And when you say a prayer before congress, there is no such thing as "praying right" or "praying wrong."

Who says he is "sincerely Christian"? Who gets to make that decision?
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've heard plenty of feminist unironically used the word "herstory" instead of "history."
How about "heresy", what's the male equivalent? "Hisesy"? TragicMonkey's views on the archons is hisesy in the eyes of the Valentinian Gnostics. Yes, that works.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:00 AM   #17
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Hey, it took these numbskulls generations of swearing on the Bible before they figured out that Christians are specifically forbidden to swear an oath, and to just say yea or nay. Baby steps regarding their practicing of religious propriety in State functions.

Wait, what?
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:05 AM   #18
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Either a bit of ignorance or an awkward attempt at wordplay.

Whichever, it was unlikely to be the dumbest thing said by elected officials that day in public, and very far down the list things that effect us in any way.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
All I'm saying is that this is an easy way to give them a talking point that plays well with their base and even with some sincere Christians on the left.
lol

The left Christians would not care as being judgmental isn't generally a big thing with that crowd.

More importantly, worrying about what a bunch of bad faith atavistic morons will turn into a "talking point" does nothing but legitimize their nonsense by giving them power over discourse. Which essentially is why the Democratic Party has been largely useless since about 1980.

Being careful to not rile up the racist uncle at Thanksgiving has not proven to be a winning long term political strategy.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:09 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And when you say a prayer before congress, there is no such thing as "praying right" or "praying wrong."

Who says he is "sincerely Christian"? Who gets to make that decision?
I think it used to be Billy Graham. Now I'm not so sure. I think Newt Gingrich, but that can't be right...
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And when you say a prayer before congress, there is no such thing as "praying right" or "praying wrong."
I wish I were in Congress, I would say the prayer to Lord Satan.

But I think this misses the point.

Quote:
Who says he is "sincerely Christian"? Who gets to make that decision?
Each person for themselves, of course.

But it doesn't really matter. If the overall goal of the Biden admin as a whole is to reach across the aisle and create some sense of unity, it seems Mr. Cleaver (who, incidentally, holds a Masters in Theology) didn't get the memo. He gave the Conservative Christian wing an excellent talking point against the "radicalism of the progressive movement."

EDIT: He's also a Methodist pastor, so he has every appearance of being a sincere Christian. Which makes this "a-woman" thing especially weird as he should know that there is no gender implication in the word "Amen"
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:25 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Either a bit of ignorance or an awkward attempt at wordplay.

Whichever, it was unlikely to be the dumbest thing said by elected officials that day in public, and very far down the list things that effect us in any way.
Oh for sure, but it's already being jumped on by Conservative voices. Why give them ammo?
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:31 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And when you say a prayer before congress, there is no such thing as "praying right" or "praying wrong."

Who says he is "sincerely Christian"? Who gets to make that decision?
This hyper-literal comment in no way negates xlx388's point.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:45 AM   #24
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Let's all agree to switch the term "amen" to the gender-neutral "A-Team" instead. That will make God happy, and if not, well, we can built an elaborate home-made tank to take him out.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:46 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
"Amen" is not a "made up word."* It's in the earliest bibles and derives from Hebrew meaning "so be it." It's a huge part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. And I would say that for anyone who is a sincere Christian (or wants to play at sincerity to score points), "silly word play," does not belong in prayer.

As I said, my real point has little to do with the religious aspects, whether or not prayer even belongs in politics, etc. The point is that it's an own goal for the progressive movement and doesn't serve the cause of gender equality.



*Every word is "made up" to represent something at some point in it's etymology so let's not go down that semantic rabbit hole, please.
You must not have been to any religious ceremony in the last, oh, 100 years. Pastors love word play. It's quite literally all they can do. Some try to be humorous about it.

Again, without the context of the entire prayer, we don't know what was intended. You are literally taking one word out of the entire prayer, stripping it of any context, and acting like people should be upset. Or, Fox news/conservative voices are taking one word out of context in order to distract the easily distracted. There is no way that this is a legitimate complaint that they care about, or that not uttering those 3 syllables would have kept them from finding something to use to keep their flock ignorant of Trump's latest illegal act.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:56 AM   #26
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As ridiculous and worthy of mockery it is to get upset at an issue like this, it's only being invoked as a distraction.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:06 PM   #27
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What a wag that Cleaver is! Subtly mocking PC culture with this pointed barb at women's lib - wait, he's a Democrat? This is an outrage!
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If you are going to insist on having an opening prayer, then more than anything, you can't dictate how that prayer is said.
I can't dictate to them, but you would think Jesus could at least make a suggestion. He had some thoughts about how to pray.

ETA: And that thing about even sincere liberal Christians having a problem with this? No they wouldn't.

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Old 4th January 2021, 01:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oh for sure, but it's already being jumped on by Conservative voices. Why give them ammo?
What ammo? "Conservative voices" are constantly saying stupid **** about stupid ****. He's trolling and virtue-signaling* at the same time. You taking it seriously is you falling for his bit and playing along.

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*Virtue-signalling is just trolling for likes instead of hates anyway.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:04 PM   #30
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It also could have just been a joke that didn't land.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:03 PM   #31
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How about we just take religion out of our politics altogether and make it a personal, private thing? Nobody's business but our own. Oh, wait...this is Amurica. Silly me.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How about we just take religion out of our politics altogether and make it a personal, private thing? Nobody's business but our own. Oh, wait...this is Amurica. Silly me.
Amenica!
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:12 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How about we just take religion out of our politics altogether and make it a personal, private thing? Nobody's business but our own. Oh, wait...this is Amurica. Silly me.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Amenica!
Always me me me!

Why not Ayourica? Or Awerica? Or just making it plain old US.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Always me me me!

Why not Ayourica? Or Awerica? Or just making it plain old US.
American't!
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It also could have just been a joke that didn't land.
That's probably what it is. If he is a minister, I'm sure he knows what "amen" means.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Can you kneel during the opening prayer?
If you take a knee in protest about prayers in Congress does anyone notice?
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Maybe, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't that big a deal but I do think it's worthy of discussion. Rep.Emmanuel Cleaver D-MO closed the Congress' opening prayer with "Amen and a-woman."

Now, I am all for inclusivity and recognizing gender inequalities and all that; but, "Amen" has nothing to do with gender or inclusivity. I think it's a bit ridiculous and over-the-top to use a completely made up "term" like "a-woman" as if that is somehow, in any way, leveling the playing field for women or even just recognizing the equality of women. I think it's a moment that conservatives can use to make progressiveism in general (I linked to Fox News because they are all over that angle) look radical and stupid. It's not helping anything at all and only adding fuel to further division.

Of course, I think the whole idea of an "opening prayer" is a bit ridiculous but that's a whole 'nother discussion...
Geeze. It's stupid enough without making it even more stupid by failing to match number. It should be amen and a-wonen, not a-woman.

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Old 4th January 2021, 05:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Can you kneel during the opening prayer?
Nommed!
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I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms.
- Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project)
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:23 PM   #39
theprestige
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
If you take a knee in protest about prayers in Congress does anyone notice?
Better assume they do, just in case.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:23 PM   #40
theprestige
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Geeze. It's stupid enough without making it even more stupid by failing to match number. It should be amen and awonen, not a woman.
Is "awonen" what a Finnish werewolf says?
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