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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 18th November 2020, 10:53 PM   #401
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing.

I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed).

We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani).

Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability).

Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con.
Is there a "what should I do" in there somewhere?


Because if not, I'm sticking with: "don't buy into the con". I actually think that framing has useful consequences.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:02 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Supporting evidence vs no evidence re your false equivalence.
I think this exchange has gone too far past your original false equivalence that both parties were the same. I withdraw.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:23 PM   #403
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The core message of Trump and his Republican supporters is this:

Democracy doesn't work, because it is too susceptible to fraud.

For the good of America, we have to abandon Democracy.
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:35 AM   #404
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Well this thread has convinced me the imprisonment of the MAGA bomber was a travesty of justice because he was far too incompetent to be considered a real threat. He should just have been ignored until he proved he could build a bomb that would blow up.
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Old 19th November 2020, 06:27 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
The Nazi Party was laughed off by the German public after the Beer Hall Putsch as well.
I suggest we stop worrying about Godwin for at least the immediate future.

It’s said that it’s not so much that history repeats itself, but that it rhymes. I think it’s critical that we examine how other Democracies have fallen, and how authoritarianism begins, takes hold and eventually prevails.

We have to be alert for what modern analogues of historic events may be. Will we have a pseudo Kristallnacht, but perhaps with immigrants or Muslims as the target rather than Jews? When does “MAGA-Hat-Wearing” start to resemble “Brown-Shirt-Wearing? What would the modern equivalent of the Reichstag Fire look like?

I never in my wildest dreams expected to seriously consider any of the above. But I also never expected the crumbling of norms and checks-and-balances, nor the hijacking of the Justice and State Departments and the pathetic subservience of an entire political party to the interest of one man. But here we are.

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Old 19th November 2020, 06:45 AM   #406
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Trump's coup is more along the lines of Erdogan or Orban.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:01 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump's coup is more along the lines of Erdogan or Orban.

The USA is currently more along the lines of Duck Soup (Danish title: En tosset diktator = A Crazy Dictator):
Quote:
"The last man nearly ruined this place, he didn’t know what to do with it
If you think this country’s bad off now, just wait till I get through with it"

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

(I guess it’s easier to laugh for people who don’t live in Freedonia.)
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:09 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think it’s critical that we examine how other Democracies have fallen, and how authoritarianism begins, takes hold and eventually prevails.

Why democrats fail at the criticism of fascism! (RuthlessCriticism)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:31 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
... It’s said that it’s not so much that history repeats itself, but that it rhymes. I think it’s critical that we examine how other Democracies have fallen, and how authoritarianism begins, takes hold and eventually prevails. ...
There was a historian interviewed the other day on cable news, Thomas Ricks, whose new book, First Principles, examines this point, which I agree is important. It would seem many involved in drafting the Constitution had examined republics in antiquity and found they inevitably failed and ended in tyranny, leading Madison, among others, to create a model of governance with widely dispersed power (lots of power to the States, three branches, etc) so that it would be theoretically hard for anyone to have access to all the levers of power at once. Or so I gathered from the interview.

Not sure there are all that many examples of republics in antiquity such as to draw firm conclusions; however and nevertheless, there are at least two seemingly irreconcilable opposing forces that seem, in my mind, to doom democracy in the end:
  1. The pendulum that swings along with capital as it first flees royal whim (taxes, cronyism, confiscation), then flees popular will (taxes), then embraces tyranny to put down the popular will (Germany 1930s, a factor in the USA since the 1960s), but then faces a form of royal whim once again, only to support a new distribution of power... rinse and repeat.
  2. The clear need, recognized by the authors of the Constitution, for rationality to act as the foundation for functioning governance, especially in the courts and in legislation. This runs counter to the also clear fact that humans are fundamentally irrational and, save purposeful deliberation, will more often rationalize than reason, self-interest being blind to all that runs against it.
The consistent GOP attacks on government, taxes and regulation fit squarely into the first, and the advent of Donald Trump has shown that the second is perilously the case; i.e., that we need fact-based reasoning, now as a matter of life or death, but find there are many, as one nurse in SD writes, who literally go to their deaths still repeating the irrational memes taken from Trump. Whoa, that's some kinda nuts.

A less obvious but also critical issue, I find, is the lost sense of what it was to come in from the steppes and first settle in a civilized manner while yet cognizant of the extreme savagery and precarious life left behind, and all that has been gained, including key innovations, such as writing and a trade economy that allows for personal private property (this last having its own downside). In short, when Thatcher and Reagan declared that "there is no society, only individuals", unwittingly they were reclaiming... the extreme savagery of the steppes, the freedom of the axe-wielding tribesman hellbent on eliminating the competition the old fashioned way. And here we are.
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Old 19th November 2020, 07:44 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
There was a historian interviewed the other day on cable news, Thomas Ricks, whose new book, First Principles, examines this point, which I agree is important. It would seem many involved in drafting the Constitution had examined republics in antiquity and found they inevitably failed and ended in tyranny, leading Madison, among others, to create a model of governance with widely dispersed power (lots of power to the States, three branches, etc) so that it would be theoretically hard for anyone to have access to all the levers of power at once. Or so I gathered from the interview.

Not sure there are all that many examples of republics in antiquity such as to draw firm conclusions; however and nevertheless, there are at least two seemingly irreconcilable opposing forces that seem, in my mind, to doom democracy in the end:
  1. The pendulum that swings along with capital as it first flees royal whim (taxes, cronyism, confiscation), then flees popular will (taxes), then embraces tyranny to put down the popular will (Germany 1930s, a factor in the USA since the 1960s), but then faces a form of royal whim once again, only to support a new distribution of power... rinse and repeat.
  2. The clear need, recognized by the authors of the Constitution, for rationality to act as the foundation for functioning governance, especially in the courts and in legislation. This runs counter to the also clear fact that humans are fundamentally irrational and, save purposeful deliberation, will more often rationalize than reason, self-interest being blind to all that runs against it.
The consistent GOP attacks on government, taxes and regulation fit squarely into the first, and the advent of Donald Trump has shown that the second is perilously the case; i.e., that we need fact-based reasoning, now as a matter of life or death, but find there are many, as one nurse in SD writes, who literally go to their deaths still repeating the irrational memes taken from Trump. Whoa, that's some kinda nuts.

A less obvious but also critical issue, I find, is the lost sense of what it was to come in from the steppes and first settle in a civilized manner while yet cognizant of the extreme savagery and precarious life left behind, and all that has been gained, including key innovations, such as writing and a trade economy that allows for personal private property (this last having its own downside). In short, when Thatcher and Reagan declared that "there is no society, only individuals", unwittingly they were reclaiming... the extreme savagery of the steppes, the freedom of the axe-wielding tribesman hellbent on eliminating the competition the old fashioned way. And here we are.
Highlighted.

What you need is leaders, that see the country, the entire country, as something bigger than themselves and that they are in service of it. To all of it and all the citizens in it.
And not just giving lipservice to this ideal, but really believing it.
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:24 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think this exchange has gone too far past your original false equivalence that both parties were the same. I withdraw.
Et tu, Ginger?
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:34 AM   #412
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On point opinion piece in New York magazine.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...raud-vote.html
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Old 19th November 2020, 08:35 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Highlighted.

What you need is leaders, that see the country, the entire country, as something bigger than themselves and that they are in service of it. To all of it and all the citizens in it.
And not just giving lipservice to this ideal, but really believing it.
Sure, but not just the leaders. The people must also cherish democracy and democratic ideals.

A lynchpin of democracy is a popular belief and trust in that form of government. In a democracy people may volunteer to participate in the franchise and vote. If enough people lose faith in that form of government, then that same franchise can be used to empower a leader with anti-democratic intentions.

If trust in democratic principles and government is eroded and people no longer trust their democracy, then that same franchise can be used to elect a tyrant. That seems to be what is happening now. Trump is telling his people that you cannot trust your democracy. Once that trust is destroyed, how do you get it back?

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Old 19th November 2020, 08:45 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
On point opinion piece in New York magazine.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...raud-vote.html
Yup.

Quote from the article:

Quote:
The popular Republican stance has been to indulge Trump’s lies while dismissing the danger he poses. “To launch a coup you need more than a giant, suppurating grievance and access to Twitter,” Wall Street Journal opinion columnist and former editor Gerard Baker scoffs. “You need a fanatical commitment, a detailed plan, an energy, a sophisticated apparatus of revolution.”

Not exactly. Those are the things one needs to carry out a coup. To merely launch a coup, you only need a party leader who refuses to abide by an election and recruits allies to cancel its result. That isn’t a fright story told by wild-eyed liberals. It’s what’s happening right now.
If it doesn't work this time around, people in the US will have been softened up for four years and it will have been normalised by 2024.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:01 AM   #415
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But that's been Trump, and the Trumper's most favorite go-to excuse for a while now.

"We're being dramatic. He can't actually do it!" as an excuse because we don't want to watch him learn how far he can go.

Can Donald J. Trump successfully complete a dictionary definition, According to Hoyle, coup?

*Shrugs* Maybe, maybe not.

But outside of "Burn it all down" nihilism what's the point in seeing how close he can get?
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:09 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If it doesn't work this time around, people in the US will have been softened up for four years and it will have been normalised by 2024.
I'd say the system as a whole (not just attitudes in the electorate) has been eroded to make it easier (though certainly it started before Trump but the erosion has been accelerated & brought to light more under Trump). There's no doubt in my mind that the potential for damage from Trump's authoritarian nature is orders of magnitude greater in a hypothetical second term than on his first for multitude reasons. Most of that doesn't go away simply because candidate x in 2024 is someone other than Trump. Heck, there isn't even anything to stop some level of continuity with the Trump years (ie. Bill "everyone dies" Barr serving in a hypothetical 2024 administration).
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:16 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is there a "what should I do" in there somewhere?
Here you go:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
...the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed).
The basic idea is to vigorously push back whenever someone tries to steal the election, even if they are trying to jam up just one county.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is there an action plan on any of those links, or just fret-festing?
https://www.waynecounty.com/elected/...anvassers.aspx

https://www.waynecounty.com/elected/...ontact-us.aspx
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:41 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
But wait, there's more!

Now they want to take it back!

https://twitter.com/DonovanSlack/status/1329277981492191232
Is there a mechanism to rescind these votes? This could just be Republicans wanting to play both sides. They vote one way, but then tell their base they rescinded that vote but the evil liberals counted it anyway.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:42 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I suggest we stop worrying about Godwin for at least the immediate future.

It’s said that it’s not so much that history repeats itself, but that it rhymes. I think it’s critical that we examine how other Democracies have fallen, and how authoritarianism begins, takes hold and eventually prevails.

We have to be alert for what modern analogues of historic events may be. Will we have a pseudo Kristallnacht, but perhaps with immigrants or Muslims as the target rather than Jews? When does “MAGA-Hat-Wearing” start to resemble “Brown-Shirt-Wearing? What would the modern equivalent of the Reichstag Fire look like?

I never in my wildest dreams expected to seriously consider any of the above. But I also never expected the crumbling of norms and checks-and-balances, nor the hijacking of the Justice and State Departments and the pathetic subservience of an entire political party to the interest of one man. But here we are.
I remember when you were a quite a strident Republican or rather conservative when the two were meant to be synonymous. It's a credit to you that you didn't let your political beliefs cloud your judgement over the last 4 years. If more people had your honesty we wouldn't have got to this stage.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:50 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Is there a mechanism to rescind these votes? This could just be Republicans wanting to play both sides. They vote one way, but then tell their base they rescinded that vote but the evil liberals counted it anyway.
There are a few things going on here.

The Republicans changed their vote after a compromise that asked for an audit of Wayne County. The Dems say that the ask was never a certainty and the state official has not signed on, far as I know. The Republicans say they believed that the compromise was that an audit would be done, not just requested.

I reckon that an audit is reasonable and ought to be granted, though I don't know that it should delay the statewide certification.

The second is that Trump contacted one of the Republicans by phone. She insists she did not feel pressured to change her vote a second time and he was just expressing support regarding the flak she had initially received. Even if what she's saying is true and no attempt to change her mind again was intended by this sensitive and empathetic president, the call was ridiculously inappropriate.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:52 AM   #421
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The modern Reichstag is exactly what is happening right now.

Hitler burned down the building that represented the seat of power and democracy. Trump, rather than burn down Capitol Hill, has decided to simply attack the democratic process.

Why bother with burning down the physical representation of democracy in America, when you can just destroy democracy itself? As usual the right is using racism and the specter of socialism/communism to fuel this destruction.

It's not terribly clever, but it doesn't have to be. Trump is not terribly smart or clever. A snake is not terribly smart either, but it's the best there is at being a snake.

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Old 19th November 2020, 09:52 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Is there a mechanism to rescind these votes? This could just be Republicans wanting to play both sides. They vote one way, but then tell their base they rescinded that vote but the evil liberals counted it anyway.
We still need to have state wide certification. By the way, the wife of one of the members of the state canvassing board is an alleged witness in one of Trump's lawsuits.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:53 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Is there a mechanism to rescind these votes? This could just be Republicans wanting to play both sides. They vote one way, but then tell their base they rescinded that vote but the evil liberals counted it anyway.
Well, there's this

Republican canvassers ask to 'rescind' their votes certifying Michigan election results [abcnews.go.com]
Quote:
"There is no legal mechanism for them to rescind their vote," the spokesperson said. "Their job is done and the next step in the process is for the Board of State Canvassers to meet and certify."
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:55 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I reckon that an audit is reasonable and ought to be granted, though I don't know that it should delay the statewide certification.
No, it's not reasonable at all, since any irregularities found did not exceed those found in the 2016 or 2018 elections, which no one had issues with. This is pure partisan asshattery.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:55 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Highlighted.

What you need is leaders, that see the country, the entire country, as something bigger than themselves and that they are in service of it. To all of it and all the citizens in it.
And not just giving lipservice to this ideal, but really believing it.
I'm rational even if you aren't.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:57 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because if not, I'm sticking with: "don't buy into the con". I actually think that framing has useful consequences.
What are those consequences and how are they useful?

Again, I doubt anyone here is buying into the con.
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:12 AM   #427
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Still got those Trumpers playing make-pretend and swinging those sad, bent candy corns around. It'll be kind of funny if they keep LARPing themselves right into getting the attention of the US Armed Forces. It'll be widespread Patriot Prayer as they pray to God to save their seditious asses
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:45 AM   #428
The Great Zaganza
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The important thing for Trump supporters is to Trust The Plan ... at least until 2024.
Do nothing until Trump's Presidency is resurrected after four years in Hell.
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:50 AM   #429
eerok
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The important thing for Trump supporters is to Trust The Plan ... at least until 2024.
Do nothing until Trump's Presidency is resurrected after four years in Hell.
It seems unimaginable that Trump could even run in 2024, but I've seen the unimaginable come to life in American politics all too often lately.

I hope the smart people get busy and find a vaccine for Trump's toxicity.
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Old 19th November 2020, 10:59 AM   #430
turingtest
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
It seems unimaginable that Trump could even run in 2024, but I've seen the unimaginable come to life in American politics all too often lately.

I hope the smart people get busy and find a vaccine for Trump's toxicity.
It's gonna be hard to find a vaccine for a toxicity that some people will go out of their way to dine on. And if it ain't Trump spreading it, there are plenty of others willing to.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:08 AM   #431
eerok
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
It's gonna be hard to find a vaccine for a toxicity that some people will go out of their way to dine on. And if it ain't Trump spreading it, there are plenty of others willing to.
Yes, there's a war on reason and reality going on, and it's larger than Trump. It's not going to be easy to deal with.

This is what happens when gaslighting becomes a party platform.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:28 AM   #432
cosmicaug
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From https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/11/19/shirkey-chatfield-set-visit-white-house-amid-election-fight/3777657001/

Quote:
The top two leaders in the Republican-controlled Michigan Legislature are expected to visit the White House Friday, according to a source with knowledge of the plans.

The visits by Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, and House Speaker Lee Chatfield, R-Levering, will come as a legal fight plays out in the battleground state with President Donald Trump attempting to challenge the results of the Nov. 3 election.
Yeah, that's great optics.

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Old 19th November 2020, 11:30 AM   #433
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Here is a very good piece by Fintan O’Toole. Bit of a longish read but the best I have seen so far (sorry if it has been referenced before).
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/202...cys-afterlife/
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:47 AM   #434
erwinl
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
I'm rational even if you aren't.
It's attitudes like this, that is causing democracy in the US to collapse.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:50 AM   #435
cosmicaug
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And by the way, I would consider filing amicus briefs in support of any of the frivolous litigation by Trump a tacit endorsement of the Trump campaign's 'throw the cooked spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks' approach of baseless litigation. Representation from Pennsylvania Senate GOP & GOP representation from Pennsylvania House of Representatives are joined in such a brief.

But somehow our default position should be that state GOP are somehow special & principled, would never encourage or join in on Trump's BS and that if, by some miracle, Trump managed to overturn the results of the election they'd be speaking out against it because they are so very different from national GOP politicians.

But yeah, thinking that perhaps that might be an overly rosy picture of these politicians is exactly the same as proposing orbiting teapots around the inner planets.

Most GOP politicians are currently just fine with the present situation. This is why they are standing by the current situation instead of standing up to it. This is a big problem.
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Old 19th November 2020, 11:56 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
On point opinion piece in New York magazine.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...raud-vote.html
That's an excellent piece.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:05 PM   #437
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Here you go:

The basic idea is to vigorously push back whenever someone tries to steal the election, even if they are trying to jam up just one county.

https://www.waynecounty.com/elected/...anvassers.aspx

https://www.waynecounty.com/elected/...ontact-us.aspx
I don't live in that state. No one in the county I live in is doing anything so stupid.

Here are the things I think will help:
1) Quit talking like Trump might do it, instead start talking like he's an incompetent idiot surrounded by more incompetent idiots.
This is from Fast Eddie's link above:
Quote:
Before proceeding, we should be clear about something: This is not going to happen. At least not this year. Donald Trump’s position is far too weak to support such a scheme. He would need to flip at least three states, his legal team is comically inept, and his gestures toward this drastic step have been too little and too late to sustain the necessary pressure.

But it’s because his effort is so feeble that the compliance of many Republicans is so striking.
2) Continue the effort to lessen gerrymandering. With the new census this is an opportunity to do that.
It takes a significant effort to reach out to the disenfranchised majorities in the states with the worst gerrymandering. Especially now that the courts are stacked to support GOP legislators.
3) Get those two Georgia Senate seats in Democratic hands.


There's more but I have to go blow the driveway off before it rains again.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:10 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
It seems unimaginable that Trump could even run in 2024, but I've seen the unimaginable come to life in American politics all too often lately.
It's pretty much unimaginable to me that he won't. Even if he remains President.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:13 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
No, it's not reasonable at all, since any irregularities found did not exceed those found in the 2016 or 2018 elections, which no one had issues with. This is pure partisan asshattery.
As I understand it, the board found the discrepancies troubling in 2018 as well. Figuring out why these discrepancies, if they differ from other parts of the state, are occurring is perfectly reasonable. I don't mean that the election shouldn't be certified because of these discrepancies but that they are a problem that ought to be fixed rather than ignored.

What I say above depends, of course, on whether such discrepancies are normal and expected. From what I understand, there are more districts failing to balance in Wayne County than elsewhere. Seems reasonable to try and understand why.
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Old 19th November 2020, 12:15 PM   #440
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There comes a point in most coups where the coup will either succeed, usually with the help of a great deal of violence, or the leaders end up dead, in exile, or in prison. A crossing of the Rubicon. A point where there is no plausible deniability that a naked, criminal power grab was attempted.

I'm curious what that point might look like here. It seems clear to me that Trump won't be able to steal this election and have the broader public just accept it as a normal course of events. At some point, people will be in the streets either demanding state governments don't enable it, or out in DC to insist that the legislature doesn't play along. Clashes with police and the military in such a scenario seems inevitable.

Then again, I generally hold quite pessimistic views of the courage and decisiveness of the Democratic party, and libs generally. When it becomes clear that Trump is just seizing power, election be damned, will they actually do anything about it or just cling to whatever remnant of power he offers them?
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