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Tags Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin , Volodymyr Zelenskiy

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Old 30th March 2022, 06:20 AM   #3721
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I almost always read Donbass as "Dumbass". I blame Red Forman.
I've been pronouncing it like that since late February.
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Old 30th March 2022, 06:49 AM   #3722
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Quote:
Russian negotiator Vladimir Medinsky is speaking following yesterday's talks in Istanbul, at which Russia said it would pull back from Kyiv and Chernihiv.

He says talks with Ukraine are continuing but adds that Russia's position on Crimea and the Donbas region has not changed.

Medinsky says Ukraine has stated a willingness to meet Russia's core demands. He says if it sticks to its promises then "the threat of a Nato stronghold" in Ukraine will be removed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Edited by xjx388:  Edited to make content quoted from elsewhere clear.

Last edited by xjx388; 30th March 2022 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 30th March 2022, 07:56 AM   #3723
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From ABC (US) News:

Putin advisers 'afraid to tell him' about Russian military performance

U.S. intelligence said it believes Russian President Vladimir Putin is being misinformed by his advisers on his troops' performance in Ukraine "because his senior advisors are too afraid to tell him the truth," a U.S. official told ABC News.

Based on declassified intelligence, the official said, "We have information that Putin felt misled by the Russian military. There is now persistent tension between Putin and the MOD [Ministry of Defence], stemming from Putinís mistrust in MOD leadership. Putin didnít even know his military was using and losing conscripts in Ukraine, showing a clear breakdown in the flow of accurate information to the Russian President."

The official continued: "We believe that Putin is being misinformed by his advisors about how badly the Russian military is performing and how the Russian economy is being crippled by sanctions, because his senior advisors are too afraid to tell him the truth."

If true, and there's every reason to believe that it is, this is probably a bad thing on balance, because it means Putin is less likely to seek a negotiated solution. OTOH, I suppose theoretically it could be good if it means he's less likely to escalate.
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Old 30th March 2022, 08:01 AM   #3724
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Old 30th March 2022, 08:20 AM   #3725
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
SuPo, the Finnish intelligence service, gave a press conference yesterday saying Russia is the number threat to Finland's security right now and warned that we should all be nice to the Russians as the Russian Embassy has asked them to report to them any signs of unfriendliness from the Finnish people. Russians are by far the largest ethnic minority in Finland, with 32,000 of them. I am not aware of any tensions with the Russian contingent. It is little wonder nobody trusts them when they come out with stasi-style nonsense like this.

The idea that Putin will be reasonable and retreat to just stick to Donetsk and Luhanska should there be a peace agreement indicates that people still don't get that Russia has no code of honour.

If in retreat, it needs to be beaten back into its own borders. Decisively.
Nothing Putin signs is worth the paper it's written on.
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Old 30th March 2022, 08:22 AM   #3726
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Saw this poll today:

Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine

What the hell is wrong with the 18-29 year olds?
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Old 30th March 2022, 08:39 AM   #3727
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Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
Saw this poll today:

Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine

What the hell is wrong with the 18-29 year olds?
Beau of the Fifth Column's take on this

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I AGREE


TLDW: Because they have grown up after the Cold War and when Iraq and Afghanistan were the most high profile Western and NATO operations. All their life, they've not experienced why NATO was formed, which was to protect our countries from a totalitarian dictatorship on a par with the Nazis.
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Old 30th March 2022, 08:43 AM   #3728
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Beau of the Fifth Column's take on this

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I AGREE


TLDW: Because they have grown up after the Cold War and when Iraq and Afghanistan were the most high profile Western and NATO operations. All their life, they've not experienced why NATO was formed, which was to protect our countries from a totalitarian dictatorship on a par with the Nazis.
I do find the reaction to this particular act of aggression very strange. My entire life I've been watching people far away get bombed into pink paste by powerful, aggressive countries. Often that country was the US. There was always protest of some sort or another, but none of it compares to the pearl clutching we're supposed to engage in for Ukraine.

I'm just as sympathetic to Ukrainians as I am to Palestinians or Afghans or Yemenis or Kurds or Ethiopians or Iraqis or any of the other poorer, browner people that I guess didn't have the right stuff for people to care about all these years. I wonder where all these people who are screaming from the rooftops about sovereignty or civilian casualties of war have been all these last decades.

I'm glad that Russian invasion and atrocities in Ukraine is getting the attention that such wantonly inhumane acts always deserve. I am deeply cynical as to the motivations behind this sudden interest in humanitarian concerns in a country that has been perfectly content to make global suffering a back burner issue, but I suppose you gotta take the few wins when you find them.

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:00 AM   #3729
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
So I'm not the only one who thinks of that song when they talk about NLAWs.
Heh.

Anyway, in case anyone cares:

LAW: Light Antitank Weapon - a post-bazooka evolution of the anti-tank unguided rocket.

VLAW: Very Light Antitank Weapon - a further evolution of the unguided rocket

SMAW: Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon - modern tank armor makes anti-tank rockets less effective, but the same system can be used on thinner-skinned targets. Specialized warheads for clearing enclosed spaces are developed. Another unguided rocket.

NLAW: Next generation Light Anti-tank Weapon - A guided missile. Much larger and heavier than previous light anti-tank weapons, to accommodate the guidance system and the larger warhead necessary for penetrating modern tank armor. A UK product.

Javelin - Another variation on the guided anti-tank missile theme, similar to the NLAW. A US product.

Ukraine is also getting shipments of Swedish AT-4s, a modern take on the classic bazooka, and American Switchblades, a remote-controlled flying grenade.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:02 AM   #3730
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I do find the reaction to this particular act of aggression very strange. My entire life I've been watching people far away get bombed into pink paste by powerful, aggressive countries. Often that country was the US. There was always protest of some sort or another, but none of it compares to the pearl clutching we're supposed to engage in for Ukraine.

I'm just as sympathetic to Ukrainians as I am to Palestinians or Afghans or Yemenis or Kurds or Ethiopians or Iraqis or any of the other poorer, browner people that I guess didn't have the right stuff for people to care about all these years. I wonder where all these people who are screaming from the rooftops about sovereignty or civilian casualties of war have been all these last decades.

I'm glad that Russian invasion and atrocities in Ukraine is getting the attention that such wantonly inhumane acts always deserve. I am deeply cynical as to the motivations behind this sudden interest in humanitarian concerns in a country that has been perfectly content to make global suffering a back burner issue, but I suppose you gotta take the few wins when you find them.
The first time a B52 was used to bomb part of Asia it was closer to the battle of the Somme than it was to the most recent time.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:05 AM   #3731
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The first time a B52 was used to bomb part of Asia it was closer to the battle of the Somme than it was to the most recent time.
Neat trivia, not sure what I'm supposed to make of it though.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:05 AM   #3732
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Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
Saw this poll today:

Our polling reveals a striking generational divide on Ukraine

What the hell is wrong with the 18-29 year olds?
Maybe they're republicans...
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:09 AM   #3733
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
NLAW: Next generation Light Anti-tank Weapon - A guided missile. Much larger and heavier than previous...
When they develop an even bigger one can it be the Mother NLAW?
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:11 AM   #3734
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Syrian fighters are being offer £5,000 a month to fight on the front line for Russia in the war against Ukraine, the BBC has learned.
One Syrian soldier whoís volunteered to fight said he believed Russia was carrying out a massacre in Ukraine, but it was also helping poor Syrians who couldnít afford to eat.

He said he'd volunteered because of the money on offer. His family doesnít want him to go, but he was told that they would be paid £37,000 if he was killed.
He said he knew of at least 200 people who had volunteered.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share
Meanwhile, people are effectively paying money to fight for Ukraine.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:19 AM   #3735
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I do find the reaction to this particular act of aggression very strange. My entire life I've been watching people far away get bombed into pink paste by powerful, aggressive countries. Often that country was the US. There was always protest of some sort or another, but none of it compares to the pearl clutching we're supposed to engage in for Ukraine.

I'm just as sympathetic to Ukrainians as I am to Palestinians or Afghans or Yemenis or Kurds or Ethiopians or Iraqis or any of the other poorer, browner people that I guess didn't have the right stuff for people to care about all these years. I wonder where all these people who are screaming from the rooftops about sovereignty or civilian casualties of war have been all these last decades.

I'm glad that Russian invasion and atrocities in Ukraine is getting the attention that such wantonly inhumane acts always deserve. I am deeply cynical as to the motivations behind this sudden interest in humanitarian concerns in a country that has been perfectly content to make global suffering a back burner issue, but I suppose you gotta take the few wins when you find them.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:20 AM   #3736
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh.

Anyway, in case anyone cares:

LAW: Light Antitank Weapon - a post-bazooka evolution of the anti-tank unguided rocket.

VLAW: Very Light Antitank Weapon - a further evolution of the unguided rocket

SMAW: Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon - modern tank armor makes anti-tank rockets less effective, but the same system can be used on thinner-skinned targets. Specialized warheads for clearing enclosed spaces are developed. Another unguided rocket.

NLAW: Next generation Light Anti-tank Weapon - A guided missile. Much larger and heavier than previous light anti-tank weapons, to accommodate the guidance system and the larger warhead necessary for penetrating modern tank armor. A UK product.

Javelin - Another variation on the guided anti-tank missile theme, similar to the NLAW. A US product.

Ukraine is also getting shipments of Swedish AT-4s, a modern take on the classic bazooka, and American Switchblades, a remote-controlled flying grenade.
Thanks.

I needed some googling to figure out what was meant by the euphemism of "loitering munition".
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:51 AM   #3737
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Swedish media reports, the Russian jets that entered Swedish airspace earlier this month were carrying nuclear warheads.
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:52 AM   #3738
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Swedish media reports, the Russian jets that entered Swedish airspace earlier this month were carrying nuclear warheads.
How do they know?
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Old 30th March 2022, 09:55 AM   #3739
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
How do they know?
I don't know, and they don't say.

Here's the news report, Google translated from Swedish.

It's a serious Swedish broadcaster, so I don't see any reason to doubt them.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:05 AM   #3740
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I do find the reaction to this particular act of aggression very strange. My entire life I've been watching people far away get bombed into pink paste by powerful, aggressive countries. Often that country was the US. There was always protest of some sort or another, but none of it compares to the pearl clutching we're supposed to engage in for Ukraine.

I'm just as sympathetic to Ukrainians as I am to Palestinians or Afghans or Yemenis or Kurds or Ethiopians or Iraqis or any of the other poorer, browner people that I guess didn't have the right stuff for people to care about all these years. I wonder where all these people who are screaming from the rooftops about sovereignty or civilian casualties of war have been all these last decades.

I'm glad that Russian invasion and atrocities in Ukraine is getting the attention that such wantonly inhumane acts always deserve. I am deeply cynical as to the motivations behind this sudden interest in humanitarian concerns in a country that has been perfectly content to make global suffering a back burner issue, but I suppose you gotta take the few wins when you find them.
Because this war is in our own yard.

WHat would you do?
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:07 AM   #3741
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Swedish media reports, the Russian jets that entered Swedish airspace earlier this month were carrying nuclear warheads.
Bollocks.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:08 AM   #3742
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I don't know, and they don't say.

Here's the news report, Google translated from Swedish.

It's a serious Swedish broadcaster, so I don't see any reason to doubt them.
How would they know?

Did they go aboard and have a look?
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:19 AM   #3743
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because this war is in our own yard.
Maybe for Europe, but Ukraine is no more in the US's yard than any other overseas battleground of recent history.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
WHat would you do?
All things considered, I think Biden has actually done a decent job in a very difficult situation. Much of this is out of his control, but resisting the calls from the most deranged natsec ghouls to touch off WWIII is very much appreciated, and supplying Ukraine so long as they have the will to fight seems a good play. It remains to be seen how the US will behave if Ukraine and Russia actually start hammering out a peace deal.

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:20 AM   #3744
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I don't know, and they don't say.
Maybe they got confused with the distinction between jets that are capable of carrying nukes (which can be easily determined at a distance) and jets that are carrying nukes (hard or impossible to tell at a distance).

Quote:
It's a serious Swedish broadcaster, so I don't see any reason to doubt them.
That seems like a mistake to me. Why the blind faith?
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:22 AM   #3745
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Maybe for Europe, but Ukraine is no more in the US's yard than any other overseas battleground of recent history.
OK, here's another reason. Russia is our strategic enemy. Letting them have free reign in Ukraine represents a strategic risk that we should not just accept.

Or another: Ukraine is a major food exporter to the middle east, and war in Ukraine could possibly destabilize the middle east, leading to huge negative global consequences.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:23 AM   #3746
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Maybe they got confused with the distinction between jets that are capable of carrying nukes (which can be easily determined at a distance) and jets that are carrying nukes (hard or impossible to tell at a distance).
No. We have been very well aware of what kind of planes they were.



Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That seems like a mistake to me. Why the blind faith?
I don't see why a serious broadcaster would suddenly throw their reputation away by making up wild claims. Mainstream media in Scandinavia is trusted by the public, and they are trusted because they have earned it.

Last edited by Ryokan; 30th March 2022 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:26 AM   #3747
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
OK, here's another reason. Russia is our strategic enemy. Letting them have free reign in Ukraine represents a strategic risk that we should not just accept.
Well, yeah, obviously that's why. This isn't what you see the pundits saying when you turn on the TV though. The selective invocation of non-aggression as a general principal is pretty brazen in this case, but none of these people are going to be swayed by this in other contexts.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Or another: Ukraine is a major food exporter to the middle east, and war in Ukraine could possibly destabilize the middle east, leading to huge negative global consequences.

The risks of destabilization has never stopped us from supporting a war before. I mean, what you say is pretty obviously true, but it's also true of most other conflicts the American public rubber stamps with approval all the time.

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:26 AM   #3748
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How would they know?

Did they go aboard and have a look?
The translate says that the Russian pilots were very clear about that.

And later
Quote:
The air force deployed two JAS 39 Gripen that could meet away and take pictures of the intruders. That was when it was confirmed that the Russian planes were equipped with nuclear weapons.
If the aircraft don't have an internal weapons bay, which many pre-stealth strike aircraft don't, then one would see any missiles it carries.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:38 AM   #3749
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Maybe for Europe, but Ukraine is no more in the US's yard than any other overseas battleground of recent history.

In effect it is. It's on the borders of NATO and looks like it could drag NATO in.
That means it is in the US back yard.

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Old 30th March 2022, 10:39 AM   #3750
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
No. We have been very well aware of what kind of planes they were.





I don't see why a serious broadcaster would suddenly throw their reputation away by making up wild claims. Mainstream media in Scandinavia is trusted by the public, and they are trusted because they have earned it.
Maybe they should check before making wild claims then.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:40 AM   #3751
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The translate says that the Russian pilots were very clear about that.

And later


If the aircraft don't have an internal weapons bay, which many pre-stealth strike aircraft don't, then one would see any missiles it carries.
I still say it's all bollocks.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:43 AM   #3752
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
OK, here's another reason. Russia is our strategic enemy.
I ainít got no quarrel with them Russian.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:44 AM   #3753
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Maybe they should check before making wild claims then.
Just because they don't name their source doesn't mean they haven't checked it out thoroughly.

Anyway, I'm done with it. It was just an interesting tidbit in this whole affair. Make of it what you want, or not.
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:44 AM   #3754
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"The Armed Forces does not want to comment on whether the two attack planes were equipped with nuclear weapons"
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:47 AM   #3755
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
"The Armed Forces does not want to comment on whether the two attack planes were equipped with nuclear weapons"
so... not bollocks, then (at least, not easily gainsaid by us, the public)?

Intercepting planes can see/photograph details like external stores. What do the intercepting pilots know that the public doesn't? What don't they know? Were they actually nuclear-tipped missiles (not easily identifiable)? Were they a known model of nuclear-capable missiles (more easily identifiable), warhead status unknown?
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Old 30th March 2022, 10:48 AM   #3756
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I don't know, and they don't say.

Here's the news report, Google translated from Swedish.

It's a serious Swedish broadcaster, so I don't see any reason to doubt them.
According to "unnamed sources". The claim in the article is that the nuclear weapons are "[s]omething that the Russian pilots were clear about." This suggests that the pilots made radio contact with the Swedish air force or other entities and declared they were nuclear-armed. The unnamed sources could be civilians who heard the broadcast on a clear radio channel, or Swedish military sources. Or they could be intelligence sources that have more intimate knowledge of flight operations at the air base in question.

But the named military source in the article has no comment.

There may be no reason to doubt the sincerity of the broadcaster, but they don't present enough evidence to assume the planes really were nuclear-armed, rather than this being Russian bluster or posturing, or some bit of false intelligence making its way into the mainstream media.
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Old 30th March 2022, 11:04 AM   #3757
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Just because they don't name their source doesn't mean they haven't checked it out thoroughly.
What kind of thorough checkout is even necessary, though? All they're doing is reporting what they've been told, by an ostensibly-reputable source. Since we don't know who that source is, we just have to trust them that we can trust their source.

That's one too many anonymous degrees of separation for my taste. My view is that media outlets should refrain from reporting anonymous claims. If an anonymous source points them in the direction of a verifiable public record, or leads them to a source that's willing to be named in conjunction with the claim, fine. Use the actual on-the-record source for the report.
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Old 30th March 2022, 11:23 AM   #3758
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Meet the real Supreme Commander of Most Holy Russian Army and tremble in fear:

Quote:
The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has promoted Ramzan Kadyrov to lieutenant-general for his role in the invasion of Ukraine, which the Chechen leader is using to showcase his loyalty to Moscow and his own impunity, Emma Graham-Harrison and Vera Mironova report.

This week Kadyrov claimed that a key ally linked to the 2015 murder of the Russian opposition leader, Boris Nemtsov, was injured fighting in the besieged port city of Mariupol.

Rustam Geremeev was pictured in hospital, where Kadyrov visited him. Earlier videos the Chechen leader posted calling Geremeev a “dear brother” claimed to show him on the frontlines in Mariupol, including at the city hall.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...08be3348fe5e2f
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Old 30th March 2022, 12:19 PM   #3759
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Mod InfoThread continues here.
Posted By:xjx388
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