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Old 25th July 2022, 01:53 PM   #2961
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No, Rishi you weren't born this way, you made your money from hedge funds that made the financial crash of 2008 happen and marrying a billionairess who used non-dom status to not pay tax in the UK until she was caught by the press.
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Old 25th July 2022, 01:54 PM   #2962
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Truss saying she's seen the light over Brexit because all the treasury forecasts were wrong. All the rest of us can all see what a disaster Brexit is. Nobody thinks it's going well!
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:03 PM   #2963
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Rishi Sunak said "being Prime Minister means being honest". He didn't think that for the 2 years he was in cabinet with Boris Johnson's government!

It's like two rats fighting in a sewer about which one of them is vermin!
Meanwhile there are reports that Johnson is trying to get written in as a third option by the membership.

I don't think it would work but I hope it does... Before being found guilty by the privileges committee and suspended for over 20 days and then subjected to a recall petition.

That would be entirely appropriate for his premiership and The Modern Conservative Party.
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:06 PM   #2964
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Truss saying she's seen the light over Brexit because all the treasury forecasts were wrong. All the rest of us can all see what a disaster Brexit is. Nobody thinks it's going well!
Are you actually watching it?



How come you have retained enough neural function to type?

How come you haven't put something through the screen you're watching it on?
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:10 PM   #2965
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Are you actually watching it?



How come you have retained enough neural function to type?

How come you haven't put something through the screen you're watching it on?
I had it on BBC News website open on a tab while I was doing something else. I was listening.
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:15 PM   #2966
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Rishi Sunak said "being Prime Minister means being honest". He didn't think that for the 2 years he was in cabinet with Boris Johnson's government!

That’s what living in London is like: you don’t know the first thing about your next-door neighbour.
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:18 PM   #2967
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The Tory leadership sucks.
Question is how much better is Labor?
From what I have read, both parties seem to be lacking in the "good leader" department.
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:25 PM   #2968
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Tory leadership sucks.
Question is how much better is Labor?
From what I have read, both parties seem to be lacking in the "good leader" department.
Starmer is possibly a bit boring.

He is (rightly) worried about being painted as a wired zealot by the Murdoch press, but the Labour front bench is now competent, and seem quite personable.

The shadow chancellor handed over to Starmer with the words, "I'd like to say I'm handing over to the next Prime Minister, but who knows how many more Tory leaders there will be before the general election"
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:33 PM   #2969
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After the last decade of insane Tories we need a bit of 'boring'
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:35 PM   #2970
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
After the last decade of insane Tories we need a bit of 'boring'
Exactly.

And the Corbynistas hate him, which is another benefit
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Old 25th July 2022, 03:06 PM   #2971
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After both telling the country that they are going to be honest with the public because that's important for a PM, in response to the question "is Brexit the cause of the queues in Dover?" they both say no.
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Old 25th July 2022, 04:32 PM   #2972
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I saw a two-minute clip of the shambles on the BBC webpage - that is enough for me in this waste-of-time sideshow - and I have to say, I couldn't believe how rude Sunak was, talking over and interrupting Truss. He is an entitled boor and bore. I think Truss' tax cuts using economist Minford's (_sp?) paradigm could work. The tax cuts are simply funded by higher interest on debts and savings - thus increasing in investments - and 'zombie' firms relying on low to zero interest penalties being too sluggish to be productive because there is no incentive to earn, interest-wise (although, of course, earned interest is taxable). The problem I foresee with this model is that it fails to appreciate that the UK is a credit -led economy, with the average household debt - excluding securities such as mortgage - being £8K per person. Truth is, whilst the savers would love more interest, unfortunately, I can't see how the average household is going to cope if they are in debt and are now facing ridiculous energy bills, not to mention inflation putting a kybosh on spending.

The other issue is education. Both claim to come from humble beginnings (see article about this int he Guardian) yet Sunak ignores the fact that even if parents 'sacrifice' and 'work hard' there is still only about 5% who could afford the £46,000 pa fees needed to go to the school he went to,, even with the 30% off scholarship, which Sunak got. Who is Sunak kidding? However, it is true that people in the UK are so used to the class system they just don't see themselves in it.

I think this is what Truss was touching on when she said her comprehensive school let kids down. Yes, it was under Tory rule the whole time but inherited the class-infested system that meant a second-class education compared to people like Sunak, who come out the other end brightly polished and affable. The irony is that when Wykeham founded Winchester, it was meant for country boys such as himself and the landed gentry excluded, as presumed to be expecting inherited wealth so didn't need the same schooling - and anyway, they had private governesses and tutors. Winchester was also a feeding school for Oxford New College founded by Henry IV (_? iirc). Eton was founded similarly. Of course, the plebs have been elbowed out, making a mockery of the original term, 'public school'. As long as people can buy their way into the establishment, then there will always be the self-entitled affables like slick Rishi who belief being PM is their natural right and kid themselves and others that they 'did it through hard work'.
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Old 25th July 2022, 08:54 PM   #2973
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I think this has been posted up thread somewhere - anyway, Truss is lying about her school.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tary-education

You really shouldn’t take anything the mendacious, self serving Tory leadership say at face value.
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Old 26th July 2022, 12:09 AM   #2974
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think this is what Truss was touching on when she said her comprehensive school let kids down. Yes, it was under Tory rule the whole time but inherited the class-infested system that meant a second-class education compared to people like Sunak, who come out the other end brightly polished and affable.
IMO the grammar school system worked for the majority those children lucky enough to pass the 11-plus exam. The trouble is that unless your parents could afford to pay for extra tutoring to get you through the exam or you went to a "good" primary school which helped you prepare to take the exam then your chances of passing were limited.

For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.

Heaven help you if you were a "late bloomer".

I'd have likely passed the 11-plus, I was precocious and my parents were teachers, but I went to comprehensive school with a lot of kids who would have been consigned to the Secondary Modern and their academic education would have been at an end. A fair proportion went on to get good O and A levels and have a successful university career. These are the real beneficiaries from the comprehensive system - bright, hard-working kids from poor backgrounds.

Being dim and lazy, I can see how Liz Truss didn't thrive under such a system
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Old 26th July 2022, 12:09 AM   #2975
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
After both telling the country that they are going to be honest with the public because that's important for a PM, in response to the question "is Brexit the cause of the queues in Dover?" they both say no.

Be fair, they might just be morons.
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Old 26th July 2022, 12:24 AM   #2976
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO the grammar school system worked for the majority those children lucky enough to pass the 11-plus exam. The trouble is that unless your parents could afford to pay for extra tutoring to get you through the exam or you went to a "good" primary school which helped you prepare to take the exam then your chances of passing were limited.

For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.
I guess I was one of them

I was in the last year to take the 11-plus, and was the only one from my (rural council estate) primary school to pass that year. I suspect I got through mostly because of the IQ test that formed part of it, based on the headmaster's comments and subsequent attitude change.

I didn't get to university, though, I left school at 16 with 8 O levels. I was fortunate that my first (government) employer was willing to pay for me to do day release and evening classes for as long as I wanted to get further qualifications. Eight years of that got me an HNC in Electronics and a degree in Maths.
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Old 26th July 2022, 12:48 AM   #2977
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My dad passed his 11 plus and he was from a rough as **** council estate. He left school at 14 though...


...mind you, he didn't do badly - he became a Quantity Surveyor.
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:08 AM   #2978
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IMO the reason why the grammar system is so popular with Conservatives is because it helps to maintain inequality and keep the proles in their place.

The reason why they hate the comprehensive system so much is that it allows those same proles to get a decent education even with a fraction of the per-pupil funding enjoyed by the grammar schools.
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:24 AM   #2979
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post



I think this is what Truss was touching on when she said her comprehensive school let kids down. Yes, it was under Tory rule the whole time but inherited the class-infested system that meant a second-class education compared to people like Sunak, who come out the other end brightly polished and affable.
I’m confused by that ‘but’.
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:51 AM   #2980
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO the grammar school system worked for the majority those children lucky enough to pass the 11-plus exam. The trouble is that unless your parents could afford to pay for extra tutoring to get you through the exam or you went to a "good" primary school which helped you prepare to take the exam then your chances of passing were limited.


...snip...
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.

Nothing could be more true than your statement "...generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.....".

Parents who have resources screw with the system like anything and without any shame, from getting solicitors involved, to out and out lying, to 12 months of tutoring for little Jeanie that is only about passing the 11 plus. Oh of course it still means a bright kid from any background should be able to get in, if everything else was equal - but everything else isn't equal. I've known parents who dreaded the idea of their kid getting to a local grammar if they passed their 11 plus - because of the incidental costs involved. Uniforms tend to be more expensive; they tend to need more equipment and kit because they get a more varied curriculum, there are more and much more expensive school trips and so on. It all adds up.

Sadly, it's a corrupted system.
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:52 AM   #2981
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO the grammar school system worked for the majority those children lucky enough to pass the 11-plus exam. The trouble is that unless your parents could afford to pay for extra tutoring to get you through the exam or you went to a "good" primary school which helped you prepare to take the exam then your chances of passing were limited.

For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.

Heaven help you if you were a "late bloomer".

I'd have likely passed the 11-plus, I was precocious and my parents were teachers, but I went to comprehensive school with a lot of kids who would have been consigned to the Secondary Modern and their academic education would have been at an end. A fair proportion went on to get good O and A levels and have a successful university career. These are the real beneficiaries from the comprehensive system - bright, hard-working kids from poor backgrounds.

Being dim and lazy, I can see how Liz Truss didn't thrive under such a system
I think it is actually worse and can fail people who fail to get in, as you say, but it also can fail those who pass but had a good day on the test but then end up spending the next 5 years at the bottom of the class rather than towards the top of they had been in a purely comprehensive system. But of course the system in Kent, for example means that you have grammars and comprehensives with almost all the more able kids removed. So even ignoring the impact of coaching, I think it fails a group of more able kids in a way that the comprehensive system doesn't.


My kids went to the local comprehensive in Derbyshire, and it seemed to be pretty reasonable for gifted and talented kids, so probably no worse than a grammar system for the most able and better for everyone else.
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Old 26th July 2022, 02:01 AM   #2982
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
My dad passed his 11 plus and he was from a rough as **** council estate. He left school at 14 though...


...mind you, he didn't do badly - he became a Quantity Surveyor.

Didn't everyone?

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Old 26th July 2022, 02:26 AM   #2983
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Liz Truss claimed she grew up in a “red wall” seat. But Leeds NE was a Tory seat from 1955.
Sir Keith Joseph was the Secretary of State for Education in the Thatcher govt until 86 and he was the MP for Leeds North East that covers Roundhay.

Roundhay is a posh suburb
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Old 26th July 2022, 03:00 AM   #2984
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.

Nothing could be more true than your statement "...generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.....".

Parents who have resources screw with the system like anything and without any shame, from getting solicitors involved, to out and out lying, to 12 months of tutoring for little Jeanie that is only about passing the 11 plus. Oh of course it still means a bright kid from any background should be able to get in, if everything else was equal - but everything else isn't equal. I've known parents who dreaded the idea of their kid getting to a local grammar if they passed their 11 plus - because of the incidental costs involved. Uniforms tend to be more expensive; they tend to need more equipment and kit because they get a more varied curriculum, there are more and much more expensive school trips and so on. It all adds up.

Sadly, it's a corrupted system.
A colleague's middle child recently did the test. Don't know outcome yet, but there was pressure, as if they had failed, they would have had to go to the local state school, which has different holidays. Their eldest got into the grammer school, so would be a nightmare if they failed to get in.
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Old 26th July 2022, 03:16 AM   #2985
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.
'Twasn't where I went to a state grammar school: the 2 grammars in my city were better than the local private schools, which were where bairns who didn't succeed in the selective process (it wasn't the streotypical 11+ exam, ut assessment of the last 2 years' work at primary school) but had wealthy parents went (I knew quite a few of those...) to avoid going to the local secondary moderns.

And one of those private schools produced Dominic Cummings, who comes from a family who have been diddling the local council out of money for years (see all the stories which re-surfaced when the Barnard Castle thing blew up and then when he fell out with BlowJob).

The aping of systems from public schools was definitely A Thing: ******* prefects? Who needs ******* prefects?
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Old 26th July 2022, 03:17 AM   #2986
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Meanwhile, as the various candidates for the Tory Party Clownshow are extolling the virtues of de-regulation and claiming they will find some more regulation to get rid of, let us remind ourselves why we need good and functioning regulation, especially in captive markets: https://www.theguardian.com/business...yers-700m-avro

Not to mention preoper enforcement of existing companies law and accounting rules...

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Old 26th July 2022, 03:18 AM   #2987
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Liz Truss claimed she grew up in a “red wall” seat. But Leeds NE was a Tory seat from 1955.
Sir Keith Joseph was the Secretary of State for Education in the Thatcher govt until 86 and he was the MP for Leeds North East that covers Roundhay.

Roundhay is a posh suburb
True, but compared to her old Etonian chums, she was on the breadline.
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Old 26th July 2022, 05:29 AM   #2988
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Johnson writes to liaison committee about 2018 meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev

“This was not a formal meeting, nor something that was pre-arranged.
As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed”.

That means Government business was certainly discussed.
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Old 26th July 2022, 05:44 AM   #2989
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Johnson writes to liaison committee about 2018 meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev

“This was not a formal meeting, nor something that was pre-arranged.
As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed”.

That means Government business was certainly discussed.
Or: BlowJob admits he doesn't know what he is talking about...
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Old 26th July 2022, 07:08 AM   #2990
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David Allen Green's analysis of BJ's letter concerning a meeting with ex-KGB Alexander Lebedev

https://davidallengreen.com/2022/07/...bedev-meeting/
Quote:
In plain language: the Prime Minister did not subsequently notify officials of his meeting with Alexander Lebedev.
Quote:
Note also the Prime Minister does not simply say “[N]o Government business was discussed”.

If the Prime Minister could have said just that, he would have done so – and put the matter beyond any doubt.

But he did not say that, and that is presumably because he cannot say that.
Worth reading in full.
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Old 26th July 2022, 07:24 AM   #2991
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
David Allen Green's analysis of BJ's letter concerning a meeting with ex-KGB Alexander Lebedev

https://davidallengreen.com/2022/07/...bedev-meeting/




Worth reading in full.
Interestingly the "anti-government" BBC is choosing to lie about what Boris Johnson said.

Quote:
Boris Johnson has said that no government business was discussed when he met Russian oligarch and ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev, without officials present, in 2018.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share

That's rubbish, he just said that he wasn't aware of any business being discussed but as he's unaware of raucous parties happing in his own flat - that means nothing whatsoever.
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Old 26th July 2022, 07:38 AM   #2992
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
After both telling the country that they are going to be honest with the public because that's important for a PM, in response to the question "is Brexit the cause of the queues in Dover?" they both say no.
The truth is unpalatable.

Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
I think this has been posted up thread somewhere - anyway, Truss is lying about her school.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tary-education

You really shouldn’t take anything the mendacious, self serving Tory leadership say at face value.
That's your next PM you're talking about.....
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Old 26th July 2022, 08:00 AM   #2993
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
What is this "charisma" BlowJob is said to possess?

I've only ever seen someone cynically putting on an act of being a bumbling public school buffoon while avoiding actually doing any real work.
Same sort of charisma as Donald Trump. Magically appealing to some people.
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Old 26th July 2022, 08:18 AM   #2994
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.
I may be slightly biased, since I went to a grammar school, which is still going, my children each went to one (both of which are still going, in a different area from mine), and my sister's three boys all went to one (again, still going, in a third area), so it still seems the norm to me.
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Old 26th July 2022, 09:37 AM   #2995
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Old 26th July 2022, 09:45 AM   #2996
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Liz Truss claimed she grew up in a “red wall” seat. But Leeds NE was a Tory seat from 1955.
Sir Keith Joseph was the Secretary of State for Education in the Thatcher govt until 86 and he was the MP for Leeds North East that covers Roundhay.

Roundhay is a posh suburb
Her primary school in Paisley was/is a mixed bag, taking kids from the poshest part of town, which was next to not just the most deprived part of town, but the most deprived part of Scotland, Ferguslie Park.
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Old 26th July 2022, 09:51 AM   #2997
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England ....
And Northern Ireland. Relatives there were OK about it because the local comprehensive had a good reputation, but my nephews have all got into the Grammar, which is proving surprisingly expensive, between uniform and paying for trips, sports and all the books etc.
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Old 26th July 2022, 11:00 AM   #2998
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.

Nothing could be more true than your statement "...generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.....".

Parents who have resources screw with the system like anything and without any shame, from getting solicitors involved, to out and out lying, to 12 months of tutoring for little Jeanie that is only about passing the 11 plus. Oh of course it still means a bright kid from any background should be able to get in, if everything else was equal - but everything else isn't equal. I've known parents who dreaded the idea of their kid getting to a local grammar if they passed their 11 plus - because of the incidental costs involved. Uniforms tend to be more expensive; they tend to need more equipment and kit because they get a more varied curriculum, there are more and much more expensive school trips and so on. It all adds up.

Sadly, it's a corrupted system.
I wasn't actually advocating for the return of grammar schools. I was pointing out that as long as there is a level of elite education that people can buy into - and let's not kid ourselves, how many parents do you know who have a spare £40K per annum + expenses on top - then there will always be the problem of the UK being ruled by a bunch of out of touch toffs because they are the only people presumed acceptable for the role of PM.

I feel sure that Sunak sincerely believes he is there by merit and I have to say whilst you are in the system you cannot see the system. It is only now at a distance and having read the book The Class Ceiling - although ironically I studied Sociology as an optional subject for my degree and read it for leisure - that it smacked me like a brick that _DOH! of course I was carried along by privilege all the time, without even realising it. All those times I turned up at a job interview and given the job without even a question being asked, it just suddenly became clear. We each thinkw e are ordinary but then wait! So my mother newly separated was able to buy a four bed house in a leafy area thanks to a deposit from her parents and I happened to go to a reasonably prestigious school which was nearby. I had a proper employment pension plan before they became compulsory. I had training contracts enabling me to bunk off once a week to a top shiny business college (no distance learning needed, everything needed to pass professional exams laid on) and then, here's the rub, once having passed a ridiculous number of mindbending exams...you still need to find two suitably qualified people to endorse you for membership (mentorship, sponsorship). Reading this tome just suddenly made me realise oh my goodness, yes, everyone in my family is naturally bright and able to pass exams, but I was cruising along on privilege and never saw it before. The class system in the UK means you can't just 'work hard and make sacrifices', you have to send out the right social code signals in order to even get your foot in the door. There were many times I was broke, and like everybody had good times and bad times, but all along I had the safety net which those who do not have inherited wealth never do, and I never saw it.

The idea of merit is just an illusion. Here in Finland schools like Winchester and Eton are actually illegal. You cannot buy yourself into the establishment. When you look at the scandinavian, nordic and baltic nations and even New Zealand and they manage to recruit perfectly decent prime ministers who don't look anything like Billy Bunter or Lord Snooty. PM Sanna Marin grew up in a social housing apartment with a single parent who was in a same sex relationship. She was in her early thirties when she took on the role and wears trendy clothes.

I think Liz Truss gets it as she went to an ordinary comprehensive and her parents took her on protest marches. Her dad is a professor, sure, but the lecturers I know rarely earned more than about £45,000 (some years ago) which is hardly super wealth league. When she got to Oxford she will have had the culture shock of being one of the rare ordinary middle classes. However, whilst you are the class system you really don't see how you are privileged, so people think Truss is criticising the quality of teaching or the school buildings and are incredibly offended by the perceived insult. However, I don't think that was the point she was making.
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Last edited by Vixen; 26th July 2022 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 26th July 2022, 11:09 AM   #2999
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I may be slightly biased, since I went to a grammar school, which is still going, my children each went to one (both of which are still going, in a different area from mine), and my sister's three boys all went to one (again, still going, in a third area), so it still seems the norm to me.
As mentioned by Darat Grammar schools are flawed in that rich parents can use their money to get their kids into the grammar school and not the comp.

That said the other system is also flawed in that house prices round good schools often leads to a very similar result.
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Old 26th July 2022, 11:25 AM   #3000
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
As mentioned by Darat Grammar schools are flawed in that rich parents can use their money to get their kids into the grammar school and not the comp.
I guess that's true, though wasn't a factor for anyone in my family.
Quote:
That said the other system is also flawed in that house prices round good schools often leads to a very similar result.
We're selling my mum's house, and it's in the same borough as my sister's; the fact that it's in the catchment area for the local grammar school did seem to be a significant factor for some of the potential buyers.



In other news, the latest TV debate was halted due to a medical emergency (not one of the candidates).

ETA: Kate McCann, the presenter, apparently fainted.
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