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Old 9th August 2022, 10:11 AM   #2321
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Cracker Barrel added Vegan sausage to the menu and people are boycotting in protest.
Seems like a silly protest, but at least they ain't tryna get anyone sacked or shunned.
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Old 9th August 2022, 10:39 AM   #2322
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Seems like a silly protest, but at least they ain't tryna get anyone sacked or shunned.
Ah, yes, the well known tactic of attempting to cause economic hardship to a business until they accede to demands, it clearly never results in sacking or shunning of workers.
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Old 9th August 2022, 11:42 AM   #2323
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ah, yes, the well known tactic of attempting to cause economic hardship to a business until they accede to demands, it clearly never results in sacking or shunning of workers.
It almost sounds like you're making an argument against boycotts generally, because sometimes they succeed in harming the targeted businesses. I can get behind this in most cases, but not all.
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:12 PM   #2324
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It almost sounds like you're making an argument against boycotts generally, because sometimes they succeed in harming the targeted businesses. I can get behind this in most cases, but not all.
Nope, I'm pointing out the flaw in your argument. That's why the rolleyes smiley was used.

I hope this basic explanation of human interactions helps you.
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Old 9th August 2022, 02:15 PM   #2325
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Nope, I'm pointing out the flaw in your argument.
Not very well; there is still an obvious difference between targeting individuals and targeting corporations.
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Old 10th August 2022, 05:26 AM   #2326
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not very well; there is still an obvious difference between targeting individuals and targeting corporations.
There is an obvious disconnect in claiming that one can financially harm a corporation without the workers of that corporation being affected. When your argument that a tactic doesn't do "x" requires ignoring the predictable and proven results of that tactic always doing "x", you have a bad argument.
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Old 12th August 2022, 05:28 AM   #2327
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Found this online article discussing the latest act of Neo-Puritan's in Australia:


Quote:
Back in the day when there were three or four cake shops on every high street, the Friday morning cake run was a big workplace thing, an end-of-the-week splurge. So let’s do it this Friday morning, with our idea of treats — another episode in the culture wars — and try and get a teachable experience from it.

The story popped up at the start of the week: the cakes-and-goodies chain Bakers Delight might be putting up signs in its stores warning its customers against sexually harassing the staff. To which one’s first response was, what? Bakers Delight? Was this… what, a sugar-rush effect? Turns out, no, it wasn’t. The Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission (VEOHRC) was not responding to any explicit complaint. It had chosen Bakers Delight because, one story reported, this was a high-risk sector for this sort of thing. It was later clarified that they meant the retail sector in general.

The inquiry was based on Victoria’s “positive duty” statute, which means that companies have to demonstrate proactive steps to address sexual harassment, rather than simply handle complaints. As it was, the company didn’t have a staff complaints procedure in place at all, which is pretty archaic. So CEO Elise Gillespie has vowed to take this “great opportunity … to be the leader nationally”. Doubtlessly Gillespie is sincere in her efforts against sexual harassment, but it can’t be denied that the initiative turns a black mark into a gold star for a company that was very far behind on these matters (no central register, no staff training).


...


But the spread of such initiatives also has a less visible culture effect as well. Creating a framework of universal self- and other-surveillance — of low trust, making life itself a suspicious activity — really serves to pull apart the cultural framework in which secure selfhood is possible. The widespread development of pervasive conditions experienced as individual mental illness — anxiety, etc — has come in parallel with the development of such all-encompassing psycho-surveillance (aided by social media). Of course, everyone’s anxious. The whole of social life is oriented to second-guessing each other, so jittery is the default setting.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...2216f7cce81e6a
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Old 12th August 2022, 09:59 AM   #2328
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JK Rowling and Salman Rushdie among 152 public figures to criticise 'cancel culture'

Quote:
While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty.
https://archive.ph/KiKGl
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Old 12th August 2022, 10:21 AM   #2329
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A take I'm thinking of today: that problem is real. "mob mentality" sometimes significantly harms people unjustly.
Coddling objectionable behavior and statements is a poor solution.
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Old 12th August 2022, 11:04 AM   #2330
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Coddling objectionable behavior and statements is a poor solution.
I'd say we've got a lot of room to play in between coddling people and trying to have them put out of society/work/insurance.
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Old 12th August 2022, 01:21 PM   #2331
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And yet if every example of public backlash is called "cancel culture!" isn't that coddling exactly what is implied?
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Old 12th August 2022, 01:42 PM   #2332
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
And yet if every example of public backlash is called "cancel culture!" isn't that coddling exactly what is implied?
There is a vast gulf between saying "Andy was wrong" and "Andy should die broke."

Cancellation isn't rebuttal, it's punishment.
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Old 12th August 2022, 06:16 PM   #2333
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There is a vast gulf between saying "Andy was wrong" and "Andy should die broke."

Cancellation isn't rebuttal, it's punishment.
Do you consider all boycotts "cancellation", and if not, what do you consider the difference?
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Old 12th August 2022, 09:05 PM   #2334
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Do you consider all boycotts "cancellation", and if not, what do you consider the difference?
I've thrown out a few descriptions of cancel culture upthread, most notably here and here.

It's not impossible for a boycott to fit those descriptions, but most of the ones I've seen don't.

ETA: On rare occasions, people will call for a boycott in order to shame and punish one particular person. It actually happened to an old friend of mine some years ago for being openly atheist, and it happened to Gelato Andy for being openly anti-atheist.
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Old 12th August 2022, 10:08 PM   #2335
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How is a boycott anything but the same thing? Withdrawing support over objecting to the behavior of a business or its owner(s)--going by your dictionary.com definition.
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Old 14th August 2022, 09:14 PM   #2336
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
How is a boycott anything but the same thing? Withdrawing support over objecting to the behavior of a business or its owner(s)--going by your dictionary.com definition.
Boycotts are a huge gamble (but I get emotional knee-jerks) and they're often a losing one. A lot will boycott, and a lot will buy more in response.

Short term not effective with not much decisive reliable data - without some hindsight of history later down the road? Still maybe.
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Old 15th August 2022, 05:22 AM   #2337
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
Boycotts are a huge gamble (but I get emotional knee-jerks) and they're often a losing one. A lot will boycott, and a lot will buy more in response.

Short term not effective with not much decisive reliable data - without some hindsight of history later down the road? Still maybe.
That may be the case, but it misses another reason for the boycott: even if it's easy for the company to endure, it is a way to avoid supporting with money the actions you disapprove of.
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Old 15th August 2022, 06:33 AM   #2338
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
That may be the case, but it misses another reason for the boycott: even if it's easy for the company to endure, it is a way to avoid supporting with money the actions you disapprove of.
It's also the weakest form of social activism; it's entirely passive. If it's that one thing you can't get elsewhere, yeah maybe a sacrifice. Otherwise it 's just something to say at at cocktail parties.
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Old 15th August 2022, 08:49 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There is a vast gulf between saying "Andy was wrong" and "Andy should die broke."

Cancellation isn't rebuttal, it's punishment.
"Andy was wrong" and "Andy should die broke" are both perfectly valid expressions of free speech in a society that is supposed to value such a thing.

"Cancel culture" hand-wringers can never seem to thread that needle between articulating the specific problem with "cancel culture" and not openly admitting that they want to police speech.
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Old 15th August 2022, 08:53 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
It's also the weakest form of social activism; it's entirely passive. If it's that one thing you can't get elsewhere, yeah maybe a sacrifice. Otherwise it 's just something to say at at cocktail parties.
I'm not sure why we need to pigeon-hole this behavior as "social activism", other than to then denigrate it as somehow performative.

There are plenty of business that have policies with which I disagree and therefore do not patronize. I don't consider that "activism" nor do I talk about it at cocktail parties. I consider it simply not giving my money to people I don't like.

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Old 15th August 2022, 10:00 AM   #2341
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There is a vast gulf between saying "Andy was wrong" and "Andy should die broke."

Cancellation isn't rebuttal, it's punishment.
If Andy being wrong has zero consequences for Andy, how is this not coddling Andy? Add in the obvious consequences of Andy's wrongness that other people have to suffer, and the hand-wringing complaints about Andy ever facing the consequences of his own actions seem to go quite a bit further than simply coddling Andy.
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Old 15th August 2022, 10:06 AM   #2342
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
It's also the weakest form of social activism; it's entirely passive. If it's that one thing you can't get elsewhere, yeah maybe a sacrifice. Otherwise it 's just something to say at at cocktail parties.
Does it have to be a sacrifice to be choosy about who you buy from? I don't get how doing something helpful doesn't count unless it hurts you.
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Old 15th August 2022, 11:45 AM   #2343
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Does it have to be a sacrifice to be choosy about who you buy from? I don't get how doing something helpful doesn't count unless it hurts you.
Nah not really, at least it's doing something. And that's fine, and not like I'm out there marching in the streets.

It's just that boycotts don't seem lead to too many real world implications. Micro scale, sure, and enough of them can build into a macro - just not seeing it. But I've been wrong before (once).
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Old 15th August 2022, 12:11 PM   #2344
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Okay I'm totally lost.

If I'm a Left Hander should I... what just keep shopping at "Left Hander Haters Emporium" because "LOL Boycotts don't work?"

I already know I'll get a lot of "Nobody's saying that" but so at a loss as to what people think SHOULD happen.

Do I have some sort of moral obligation to engage products and services from people who hate me for what... some vague, glib truism about nothing?
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Old 15th August 2022, 03:13 PM   #2345
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
Nah not really, at least it's doing something. And that's fine, and not like I'm out there marching in the streets.

It's just that boycotts don't seem lead to too many real world implications. Micro scale, sure, and enough of them can build into a macro - just not seeing it. But I've been wrong before (once).
Exactly. Rosa Parks and her friends just needed something to talk about at cocktail parties.
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Old 15th August 2022, 03:44 PM   #2346
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Yeah...sure. If you want to equate current day boycotting to Rosa Parks, go for it. Shutting down your neighborhood Chick-fil-A is close right?

Hey is this kind of reverse Godwin?
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Old 15th August 2022, 03:58 PM   #2347
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
If Andy being wrong has zero consequences for Andy, how is this not coddling Andy?
I dunno man, seems like there might be some non-zero consequences short of putting him out of work and health insurance.

Out of curiosity, what level of punishment seems appropriate to you, given Andy's (alleged) transgression?

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Old 15th August 2022, 04:01 PM   #2348
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Found this online article discussing the latest act of Neo-Puritan's in Australia:





https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...2216f7cce81e6a
This article is a little misleading. Nearly every Bakers Delight outlet is franchised, more often than not run by a baker. Yes there is a “positive duty” on every employer in Victoria to prevent discrimination, but most small employers (and I have dealt with thousands of them including a lot of Bakers Delight shops) are not aware of this.

It is good that Bakers Delight head office has acted on this. Most front of house staff are female and mostly very young. I do not see this as neo-puritanical at all.
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Old 16th August 2022, 03:51 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Found this online article discussing the latest act of Neo-Puritan's in Australia:





https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...2216f7cce81e6a
That's nice for you. Did you spot any articles about cancel culture at the same time?
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:29 AM   #2350
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An account of a disinvitation...


Quote:
I was invited to give a lecture at Harvard on British Romanticism, but on April 18th I received a notification by email from one of the colloquium co-coordinators that I was disinvited because someone at Harvard discovered that I had written articles for 4W criticizing gender ideology and that I served on the board of Women's Liberation Front, a feminist nonprofit which is currently suing the state of California for housing men in women's prison facilities.

The original disinvitation email is only one of several emails.

This point of this article is to display, for the first time and all in one place, all emails sent by Harvard.

https://4w.pub/when-i-was-canceled-by-harvard/
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:35 AM   #2351
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I dunno man, seems like there might be some non-zero consequences short of putting him out of work and health insurance.

Out of curiosity, what level of punishment seems appropriate to you, given Andy's (alleged) transgression?

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I'm not seeing "Andy should die broke" in your link. Perhaps I'm simply missing the massive twitter outcry?

Oh, wait...1) twitter, well known for hyperbole and 2) twitter, not real life or as the thread is titled "IRL"
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:39 AM   #2352
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The social requirements to stop using a product/service or stop watching/reading a creator's works is nowhere near as high as people are pretending it is.

You don't have to justify not liking something to anywhere near this degree, and we are never asked to when it's people in positions of power putting much greater influence on people in positions of no power.
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:44 AM   #2353
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
An account of a disinvitation...





https://4w.pub/when-i-was-canceled-by-harvard/
Person makes themselves famous as an anti-trans activist, then gets shocked that grad students at Harvard rescind a speaking engagement based on her public persona.

Doesn't Harvard know that students should be forced to attend lectures given by people known more for their bigotry than for their contributions to whatever the topic they're supposed to be talking about is?
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:27 AM   #2354
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Person 1: Hello. I am voluntarily in a free society choosing to purchase your product/service or partake of your media.
Person 2: I just want to say that people of Person 1's demographic are bad.
Person 1: I am now deciding to no longer voluntarily in a free society choose to purchase your product/service or partake in your media.

I've been begging, literally begging, for two threads now for anyone to explain to what's wrong in that scenario.
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Old 16th August 2022, 08:19 AM   #2355
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Person 1: Hello. I am voluntarily in a free society choosing to purchase your product/service or partake of your media.
Person 2: I just want to say that people of Person 1's demographic are bad.
Person 1: I am now deciding to no longer voluntarily in a free society choose to purchase your product/service or partake in your media.

I've been begging, literally begging, for two threads now for anyone to explain to what's wrong in that scenario.
Because people should be forced to purchase products, services, or even to host speakers that they don't want to. It's not a free society unless we force Harvard to pay anti-trans activists to speak on Harvard's stage and to Harvard's students.



/s
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Old 16th August 2022, 08:30 AM   #2356
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Person 1: Hello. I am voluntarily in a free society choosing to purchase your product/service or partake of your media.
Person 2: I just want to say that people of Person 1's demographic are bad.
Person 1: I am now deciding to no longer voluntarily in a free society choose to purchase your product/service or partake in your media.
We've looked at several specific examples of cancellations in these threads, but no one fitting the description of "Person 2" comes to mind, unless you think certain political or personal views count as demographic traits.

If you're making a hypothetical case, that's fine, but it is interesting that no actual cases come to mind.
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Old 16th August 2022, 08:35 AM   #2357
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We've looked at several specific examples of cancellations in these threads, but no one fitting the description of "Person 2" comes to mind, unless you think certain political or personal views count as demographic traits.

If you're making a hypothetical case, that's fine, but it is interesting that no actual cases come to mind.
Lies in their event against cancel culture CPAC canceled a speaker for exactly that reason.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/23/polit...nts/index.html

Canceling a speaker for their social media presence is exactly what you are against right, and here we have that liberal bastion CPAC doing exactly that.
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Old 16th August 2022, 04:16 PM   #2358
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
Yeah...sure. If you want to equate current day boycotting to Rosa Parks, go for it. Shutting down your neighborhood Chick-fil-A is close right?

Hey is this kind of reverse Godwin?
You're making an argument that boycotts are pointless and performative.

Pointing out that history doesn't agree with you isn't a "reverse Godwin", whatever that's supposed to be.
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Old 16th August 2022, 04:43 PM   #2359
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Lies in their event against cancel culture CPAC canceled a speaker for exactly that reason.
CPAC canceled a speaker for being openly anti-Jewish; good on them.

Who even is "person 1" in this scenario?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Canceling a speaker for their social media presence is exactly what you are against right...
Wrong.
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:23 PM   #2360
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You're making an argument that boycotts are pointless and performative.

Pointing out that history doesn't agree with you isn't a "reverse Godwin", whatever that's supposed to be.
Okay fine, boycotts are marginally performative.

And yes, I'm arguing that boycotts are, though not necessarily but mostly, pointless and have yet to show anything conclusive. If you can find something that moves the societal needle in the recent past, I'm all ears.
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